Go Back  Bike Forums > The Racer's Forum > "The 33"-Road Bike Racing
Reload this Page >

Why aren't Cat 4 field limits smaller?

Notices
"The 33"-Road Bike Racing We set this forum up for our members to discuss their experiences in either pro or amateur racing, whether they are the big races, or even the small backyard races. Don't forget to update all the members with your own race results.

Why aren't Cat 4 field limits smaller?

Old 03-08-12, 11:43 PM
  #101  
Racer Ex 
Resident Alien
 
Racer Ex's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Location, location.
Posts: 13,084
Mentioned: 158 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 346 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
Originally Posted by carpediemracing View Post
I went to a snooty public school. My favorite pair of words I learned in 8th grade: "unmitigated temerity"
Inner city public school here.

"Case dismissed."
Racer Ex is offline  
Old 03-09-12, 11:21 AM
  #102  
Kadowaki
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Kadowaki's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 110
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
Originally Posted by carpediemracing View Post
The OP is like wtf does this have to do with Cat 4 field limits?
On the contrary this has everything to do with the issues I'm raising.
Kadowaki is offline  
Old 03-09-12, 11:24 AM
  #103  
Kadowaki
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Kadowaki's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 110
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
Originally Posted by AzTallRider View Post
<standing up> My name is James, and I'm a Cat 4. I have tried to jump, thinking I was launching into an open spot, only to have the guy I just cut off scream at me. But thankfully only once. So far. <sitting back down>.

Anyway, I ride Masters: 50+ or 55+ depending on how they break it up. I'm the rookie in that group (2nd season), so I make damned sure I'm not "That Guy". I've gotten my fitness up to where I stay with the pack, but many of them have better kicks, my racing IQ is in the double digits, and I've been finishing as pack fodder, constantly adding entries to my list of "how not to finish a race". This weekend I'm going to slum it and do a Cat4 crit, since it's after the M50+ for a change, and our region wants 50% of your results to be in Cat4 to move up to Cat3. Having watched several of this year's Cat4 races, the prospect has me just a wee bit nervous. Big packs of worked up, hyper-hormonal 'youngins', some of whom are pretty fast. I typically work hard to stay near the front, and I fully intend to do that Sunday. The sooner some people get dropped the better. If I end up going OTB from pressing the pace, then so be it.
This is where I'm at. 50+ but just started racing recently. Hard to Cat up as I'm well past my prime. Prefer to race Masters but when I try 4's I'm not so comfortable. In addition to alleged erratic riding, the youngins are just able to surge back and forth more better than us old fellas who can still hammer but not so up and down unless putting in a real move.
Kadowaki is offline  
Old 03-09-12, 11:49 AM
  #104  
wanders
going roundy round
 
wanders's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: High Point, NC
Posts: 6,084
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
At least there is a "forth" in the 4's. For me, the surges in Masters last the entire race.
wanders is offline  
Old 03-09-12, 11:59 AM
  #105  
jfmckenna
Tiocfáidh ár Lá
 
jfmckenna's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: The edge of b#
Posts: 5,451

Bikes: A whole bunch-a bikes.

Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 291 Post(s)
Liked 4 Times in 4 Posts
Originally Posted by carpediemracing View Post
The OP is like wtf does this have to do with Cat 4 field limits?
Which brings me back on topic. FWIW I never had a problem with cat4 field sizes even at 100 riders. Once you are in the field and surrounded does it really matter that there are 20 guys in front of you and 30 behind versus 40 guys in front and 60 behind? Not really.

As for sprints though personally I avoid them. Not only do I suck at sprinting hence not even worth trying but there is no way I'm gonna duke it out with a bunch of crazies fighting for the prized gas money.

I've won 3 races as a cat 4 and every one of them was off the front alone.

Oh and as far as idiots mouthing off in the field I usually just remind them that they are amateurs in an amateur race and to just lighten up.
jfmckenna is offline  
Old 03-09-12, 12:02 PM
  #106  
carpediemracing 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Tariffville, CT
Posts: 15,125

Bikes: Tsunami Bikes

Mentioned: 34 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 276 Post(s)
Liked 6 Times in 4 Posts
Originally Posted by jfmckenna View Post
they are amateurs in an amateur race
My new teammate put it in perspective in a talk a long time ago.

"Look, we're just intramural cyclists, nothing more serious than that."

He's a former New England Crit champ (P123), former 2, raced for one of the top teams in the country as a Junior. Now a dad of two, spent a year deployed "over there", and has a very grounded view of life.
carpediemracing is offline  
Old 03-09-12, 12:35 PM
  #107  
shovelhd
Senior Member
 
shovelhd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Western MA
Posts: 15,669

Bikes: Yes

Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Kadowaki View Post
This is where I'm at. 50+ but just started racing recently. Hard to Cat up as I'm well past my prime. Prefer to race Masters but when I try 4's I'm not so comfortable. In addition to alleged erratic riding, the youngins are just able to surge back and forth more better than us old fellas who can still hammer but not so up and down unless putting in a real move.
If you can consistently finish in the Cat4 races you'll upgrade to Cat3 pretty easily from that alone. It gets exponentially harder to go further, but it's not impossible at your age. I did it last year.
shovelhd is offline  
Old 03-09-12, 12:46 PM
  #108  
gsteinb
out walking the earth
 
gsteinb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 20,801
Mentioned: 68 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 553 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 59 Times in 29 Posts
heck I know a guy in his 50s who upgraded to one last year.
gsteinb is offline  
Old 03-09-12, 12:55 PM
  #109  
carpediemracing 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Tariffville, CT
Posts: 15,125

Bikes: Tsunami Bikes

Mentioned: 34 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 276 Post(s)
Liked 6 Times in 4 Posts
Originally Posted by shovelhd View Post
If you can consistently finish in the Cat4 races you'll upgrade to Cat3 pretty easily from that alone. It gets exponentially harder to go further, but it's not impossible at your age.
+1

It helps to be fit in general, have some talent, but I think Cat 3 is attainable by everyone. Cat 2, not so much. Cat 1... yeah, right.

Focus on the foundation first. I see Masters riders with terrible pedal form, various joint issues that prevent a normal position, etc. Get smooth, efficient, and fluid on the bike. Use some of that maturity and life experience (I can say that because I'm not far behind you) to sit back and let the younger racers use themselves up before you step into the fray.

The rest of it will follow.
carpediemracing is offline  
Old 03-09-12, 01:04 PM
  #110  
wanders
going roundy round
 
wanders's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: High Point, NC
Posts: 6,084
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by gsteinb View Post
heck I know a guy in his 50s who upgraded to one last year.
How long before you get your membership?

Further clarification - To being a Cat 1, not to being 50+.
wanders is offline  
Old 03-09-12, 01:06 PM
  #111  
jfmckenna
Tiocfáidh ár Lá
 
jfmckenna's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: The edge of b#
Posts: 5,451

Bikes: A whole bunch-a bikes.

Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 291 Post(s)
Liked 4 Times in 4 Posts
Originally Posted by gsteinb View Post
heck I know a guy in his 50s who upgraded to one last year.
Freak of nature. It happens but it's rare.
jfmckenna is offline  
Old 03-09-12, 01:06 PM
  #112  
crapweasel
Senior Member
 
crapweasel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 322
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
it's 25 finishes though, right? That whole section confuses me. What's a pack finish anyway? If there was a split and they score you down 7 seconds does that not count?

I'm not even sure I'd request an upgrade based on finishes. It just seems like a participation trophy.
crapweasel is offline  
Old 03-09-12, 01:13 PM
  #113  
hammy56
coffee-stained punk
 
hammy56's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 6,630
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
I'll be doing my first masters (40+) race next weekend. Not sure exactly what to expect, other than hopefully a better quality of riders, and at this point Id rather get shelled than ever race in the 4's again...
hammy56 is offline  
Old 03-09-12, 01:14 PM
  #114  
carpediemracing 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Tariffville, CT
Posts: 15,125

Bikes: Tsunami Bikes

Mentioned: 34 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 276 Post(s)
Liked 6 Times in 4 Posts
Originally Posted by crapweasel View Post
it's 25 finishes though, right? That whole section confuses me. What's a pack finish anyway? If there was a split and they score you down 7 seconds does that not count?

I'm not even sure I'd request an upgrade based on finishes. It just seems like a participation trophy.
A teammate of mine upgraded based on finishes (this was a while back). He was our leadout man. He'd finish every race off the back, totally shattered, but his (Cat 4) teammates were winning. I think that justifies an upgrade, kind of like having a domestique get some kind of ProTour credit for sitting at the front all day, every day, in a stage race, but finishing 5 hours down on the overall winner.
carpediemracing is offline  
Old 03-09-12, 01:30 PM
  #115  
gsteinb
out walking the earth
 
gsteinb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 20,801
Mentioned: 68 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 553 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 59 Times in 29 Posts
Originally Posted by wanders View Post
How long before you get your membership?

Further clarification - To being a Cat 1, not to being 50+.
no interest. there are maybe two races I'd do that I need to be a 1 for (harlem and base camp), and I'd probably never do one of those anyway.
gsteinb is offline  
Old 03-09-12, 01:41 PM
  #116  
rkwaki
soon to be gsteinc...
 
rkwaki's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Nayr497's BFF
Posts: 8,564
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by gsteinb View Post
no interest. there are maybe two races I'd do that I need to be a 1 for (harlem and base camp), and I'd probably never do one of those anyway.
I heard Harlem was an awesome race. True?
rkwaki is offline  
Old 03-09-12, 01:50 PM
  #117  
gsteinb
out walking the earth
 
gsteinb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 20,801
Mentioned: 68 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 553 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 59 Times in 29 Posts
I won the masters race there a couple of years back

Yes, awesome

But

It has a lot of paint and manholes and a tendency for severe t storms. It's usually a blood bath.
gsteinb is offline  
Old 03-09-12, 01:55 PM
  #118  
Kadowaki
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Kadowaki's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 110
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
"Category 4 to 3: 20 points in any 12-month period; or experience in 25 races with a minimum of 10 top-10 finishes with fields of 30 riders or more, or 20 pack finishes with fields over 50. 30 points in 12 months is an automatic upgrade."

Aha! just start 25 times and finish with the pack 20 times, no matter how large the pack or where in the pack you are.
Kadowaki is offline  
Old 03-09-12, 02:29 PM
  #119  
carpediemracing 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Tariffville, CT
Posts: 15,125

Bikes: Tsunami Bikes

Mentioned: 34 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 276 Post(s)
Liked 6 Times in 4 Posts
Originally Posted by gsteinb View Post
It has a lot of paint and manholes and a tendency for severe t storms. It's usually a blood bath.
I've never won there. In 2010, in the 3s race, one guy broke a bunch of ribs, went into convulsions (he was the guy that took me out in 2009 so it was kind of karmic but I still felt bad for him). His teammate broke some stuff, arm or leg or something. And those were two guys I kind of knew of.

It didn't rain during the race but I barely got to the car after and it opened up. The Missus and two nieces got soaked.

Google "Skyscraper Classic" on YouTube, there's a bunch of footage from 2009 which is good. I think 2009, whenever that guy who won fell throwing his bike at the line.

First race I ever saw there was the first race of the day (they have races for the locals until noon, then licensed racers after). This guy attacked at the gun, went sprinting down the first straight. He didn't stop sprinting until he leaned his bike into the first turn. I was thinking, "wow, he can corner a lot faster than me, and he's not even licensed!".

Then he t-boned the saw horses lining the curb, cartwheeled into the crowd. They loved it.

A long time ago I got there, put my name on the wait list. There were 250 racers already in the race. And I put my name on the waitlist. After I realized how idiotic it was to try and get into a 250 rider field we packed up the car and left.

In the old days the prize checks all bounced. It really irked one of my friends who kept "winning" money there but it just cost him a fortune in bounced check fees.

That's where the ATV (follow vehicle, driven by promoter) went into the crowd. The then race promoter spun his surplus NYC police car also (I was right there, I wasn't sure why he entered turn one at about 40 mph, then the back end let go, and he did a 360 and stopped - another 10 feet to the side and he'd have repeated the 1955 Lemans accident).

Also there's one where a taxi got on the course.

In the P1 race one year a guy had a good size lead, maybe 30-40 seconds. Solo. Flying between Turn 2 and 3. About 10 cops at a crosswalk area. Kid on a mountain bike, headphones, rolls right by them. Break guy t-bones the kid, breaks the race bike into pieces. The cops practically beat up the kid getting him off the course, but they didn't stop him when he rolled by them.

My favorite story only has to do with getting to the course. I got a ride because I had no clue how to navigate NYC. Teammate driving, he had agreed to drive a non-teammate. Non-teammate sometimes says inappropriate things. At the time there was some important game, maybe basketball? Phoenix and someone. All the way down the non-teammate was yelling out the window, "Phoenix or (whoever)???!!!" Whatever the other person answered the non-teammate would yell something positive back, like "Yeah, effing Phoenix rocks!"

Then we got into Harlem proper and got lost. I was saying to just ask for directions, it's MLK Blvd at like 125th. So we stop. Non-teammate rolls down window.

"Hey! You!" (motioning to a person of color) "You speak jive?"

OMG. I got as low as possible. I was thinking that there'd be a report that two white people and an Asian were found shot to death in Harlem. He did this like 5 or 6 times, it wasn't just once.

I was so stressed by the time I got to the race it was horrible. I think I dropped out after a few laps.
carpediemracing is offline  
Old 03-09-12, 02:31 PM
  #120  
gsteinb
out walking the earth
 
gsteinb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 20,801
Mentioned: 68 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 553 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 59 Times in 29 Posts
I was supposed to get a jersey for winning in 2009. I put it on during the podium ceremony and then they took it back. The promoter promised me one, but never made good on it. I'd rather have the jersey than the money in general.
gsteinb is offline  
Old 03-09-12, 02:39 PM
  #121  
Creatre
These Guys Eat Oreos
 
Creatre's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Superior, CO
Posts: 3,432

Bikes: Yes

Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Getting cat 4 points is all about positioning in the final 1km. I am strong enough to ride with the cat 3's no problem, but was having a hard time getting into solid breakaways or getting away in climbs (not enough races with mountains). I found even with a 950w max sprint, I can get top 5s consistantly if just put myself out in the wind the last 500m or 1km and position myself in the front and "sprint" in. Anyone can do this if I can. I personally still have a few more points to go.
Creatre is offline  
Old 03-09-12, 02:49 PM
  #122  
Homebrew01
Super Moderator
 
Homebrew01's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Ffld Cnty Connecticut
Posts: 21,284

Bikes: Old Steelies I made, Old Cannondales

Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 885 Post(s)
Liked 116 Times in 95 Posts
I think I'll race harlem this year. What could possibly go wrong ?
__________________
Bikes: Old steel race bikes, old Cannondale race bikes, less old Cannondale race bike, crappy old mtn bike.

FYI: http://www.bikeforums.net/forum-sugg...ad-please.html
Homebrew01 is offline  
Old 03-09-12, 02:53 PM
  #123  
shovelhd
Senior Member
 
shovelhd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Western MA
Posts: 15,669

Bikes: Yes

Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
haha
shovelhd is offline  
Old 03-09-12, 02:58 PM
  #124  
carpediemracing 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Tariffville, CT
Posts: 15,125

Bikes: Tsunami Bikes

Mentioned: 34 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 276 Post(s)
Liked 6 Times in 4 Posts
I'm a gonna sign up, if I can. I don't want to do it in the rain though.
carpediemracing is offline  
Old 03-09-12, 03:00 PM
  #125  
GirlAnachronism
Bulldozer
 
GirlAnachronism's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: NYC
Posts: 2,846
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
CDR, I will wave to you as I drive from Harlem (where I live) to race Housatonic Hills in CT instead.
GirlAnachronism is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright © 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.