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Training Status??? (III)

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Training Status??? (III)

Old 07-20-14, 04:02 PM
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It's been a weird couple of weeks and I kind of lost my cycling mojo, but I still managed some power PRs this weekend :-)
I'm on the fence about trying to get to Master's Nats in Sept: just going to ride my bike and have fun in the meantime. If I end up going there to race, I'll just have to hope that it was enough!
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Old 07-20-14, 04:33 PM
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Sitting on the trainer spinning. Sitting up, Z2 is hard. So just spinning easy. Not used to riding in this position.
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Old 07-20-14, 05:46 PM
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Originally Posted by rideaz
It's been a weird couple of weeks and I kind of lost my cycling mojo, but I still managed some power PRs this weekend :-)
I'm on the fence about trying to get to Master's Nats in Sept: just going to ride my bike and have fun in the meantime. If I end up going there to race, I'll just have to hope that it was enough!
go. you can do really well. So few have the ability you have. You'll probably get beat by women with more experience, but that's the point. In a year or three you'll have the experience to match your legs and you can win.
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Old 07-20-14, 05:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Moyene Corniche
On Podiums in which categories ? If you got spat out the back it points that (1) you are not at that level to stay in contact (2) You have not allowed your system to refresh. (3) You can hammer out rides every week in Cat 5 and Cat 4 and do well, but in Cat 3 no way, your weaknesses will show immediately. In Cat 1-2 you will not even make the distance, let alone when the hammer drops.
People who do hammer rides are strong, but only up to a certain point. Cycling is much more about versatility than putting your head down and hammering it out. It certainly didn't keep you in contact, so then something is missing.
Then again what Cats are your teammates ? If they are the same then you should be on the level to stay with them and not get dropped until the last couple hundred feet.
Don't know what your coach is telling you but climbing well is both about power to weight ratio as well as efficiency. Both mechanical and biomechanics. No better example of that then Miguel Indurain. Here was a big guy who could climb regardless of his size, he did sometimes get nailed by the colombians but more often than not everyone else was trying to stay in contact with Big Mig without blowing up.
Also how are your descending skills ? hopefully not like Wiggins. Being able to descend is a skill which seems to have been lost by the majority.
There you can make up great chunks of lost time or gain time.
I know a few 2's and 3's that basically just do the local group rides as their training and they do pretty well. A few people on this board do the same (I'll let them speak up about it) and have done well.
These guys were all Cat 3's and above. I see it as a positive I stayed on for so long. As far as group rides go, I'm in a no man's land of too fast for the slow group, too slow for the fast group.
My descending sucks, though I was able to stay attached going down.

Originally Posted by shovelhd
Did your coach OK today's hammer ride? Did he/she explain to you where they fit or don't fit into your program? If so, then maybe coaching isn't for you. If not, then you need a new coach.

Don't talk to me about old.
You do a great job of making a snap judgement on things and I'm not sure why everyone on this forum has to justify every ride to you. I take the advice because I appreciate it and so does everyone else. We do not have to agree with it or follow it, and most on here tolerate the attitude. There are 3-4 guys here that think if its not done their way its wrong. I post about a group ride and you tell me to fire my coach, I post that I did a training crit and you scream and yell that training crits don't exist. At this point the whole thing is comical.

I don't mind being constantly jabbed, mocked, whatever. You touched a nerve with fire the coach comments, I'm sure the family insults are soon to follow...
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Old 07-20-14, 06:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Ygduf
go. you can do really well. So few have the ability you have. You'll probably get beat by women with more experience, but that's the point. In a year or three you'll have the experience to match your legs and you can win.
Thanks man. The mind and body want to go. Just got to figure out logistics with family, work etc. If I can find someone to drive there with, I'll go. I know I'll regret it if I don't!
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Old 07-20-14, 06:22 PM
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Originally Posted by furiousferret

I don't mind being constantly jabbed, mocked, whatever. You touched a nerve with fire the coach comments, I'm sure the family insults are soon to follow...

train it.

j/k

I don't know anything about what cat or races you play in, but a ride or three here or there aren't going to break anything. It's a long-term sport where advancement is made over months.

Stress and recover. There is no secret.

Some guys "peak" for races or whatever. My CTL has been the same since April. I've yet to have a season where I didn't see improvement from the prior year, so I'm currently on a 5-year build. Maybe I'll peak someday.

Anyway, always, YMMV. My goal is to do what's fun, because if it's fun I'll keep doing it and if I consistently ride my bike and push myself and sleep/eat reasonably well, I'll get better.
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Old 07-20-14, 06:27 PM
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"training status" is a sensitive realm lately

today I sat on the couch, ate lunch, sat on the couch some more..i'm trying to replicate my cat's training methods
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Old 07-20-14, 06:31 PM
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after the races yesterday I did a mellow 4.5 hours and 75mi with some 6k of climbing. Nothing too hard, mostly z2 with a bit of z3 climbing.

turns out 2x30 max effort race climbs will make me sore.
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Old 07-20-14, 07:23 PM
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Originally Posted by furiousferret
I have a team ride tomorrow; 48 miles and an HC Climb adding up to 5800 feet with as poorly as I've felt this could end up very badly. My legs just haven't been recovering.
Context.
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Old 07-20-14, 07:25 PM
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First ride after being off the bike for a week. Easy 17 miles with a Junior.
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Old 07-20-14, 07:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Ygduf
what's hilarious is that if any of us were in a TdF level peloton in a descent we'd wet our pants.

I watched Andy Schleck scream down Sierra Rd at 40mph weaving through people walking, riding, walking dogs, etc. after the ToC. And he's a "bad" descender.
Unfortunately there really isn't anywhere on the east coast of the US that remotely resembles descending in the Alps. Even the Maritime Alps above Monaco, Menton, Nice. There was a training ride where we'd head off from the " La Promenade des Anglais " in Nice, head east towards Eze, head up the old route for the Col D'eze TT and continue on up towards Roquebrune and up again towards Le Gorbio Peille.
Basically it's a route that rises up to 900 meters in about 1.6 km heading inland as the crow flies. This way is actually the reverse route, easier then riding from Menton straight inland up into the Col De La Madone.

As far as descending, it's all switchbacks with vertiginous drops on the downside and sharp rocks cliffs on the inside. Let's put it this way for a 2.5 hour loop, it's 20 minutes to descend back to sea level @ Monaco. the rest is all about climbing up to 900 meters. Probably because I ski raced I always loved descending on switchback mountain roads,treating it like running a GS or actually a super GS. If you are not hitting 75-80KPH descending then you are really not letting it go. It's all about picking your line and not handling the bike as you would a motorcycle. Two very completely different approaches. One with a low center of gravity and the ability to power out of a turn, the other with a relatively high center of gravity but also the ability to counter steer and drift both front and rear since it's such a small contact patch. I'll have to find some of the pictures of this loop and post them. ( They were not taken with an I-phone or even my canon 40D digital ).
One of the great things about that area is that you often get to join a group ride where some of the Pro's living locally will be on the ride also. Descending behind riders who do this day in and day out is really the best way to see the correct lines to take and make it thru.
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Old 07-20-14, 07:58 PM
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Enough reminiscing about yesterday's ride.
Met up in NoHo, was to be a B group ride, most of the other's heading off to W-Hampton for the Fundo. I set off from Holyoke to meet at Pulaski Park / Academy of Music for the ride. Thought I'd be late so down 141 and TT'd all the way. Unecessary as everyone hung out for at least 15 minutes after 9am.
Ride was headed up River Road towards Turner Falls and back. There was only 7 of us but the average pace was consistently about 38-41kph. So much for the B easier ride. I believe Gary ? was the one driving most of the way. Just a big gear and go. I'm tall at 6.3 but he's taller than me and larger, which is nice to be able to draft behind someone bigger, and who just motors up the road.
I would call yesterday's ride " The Acela Express " In all with my added to and from Holyoke it was about 115km, but with the pace of the main ride it was definitely a Hammer Ride.
I do and must add that the two ladies who were along Aleesa and Katerine ( I think ) were at the front pulling just as well as everyone else. Did have one mishap on an uphill, Aleesa overlapped my rear wheel just as I moved over to the left and went down. I still feel sorry as I should have been aware of a less experienced rider behind me and where they were at all times. it was a slow pace uphill and no damage other than a couple light scrapes and perhaps bruised esteem.

So today was a rest day since I have to redress my BB and rear wheel. Had to attend to projects and obligations anyway..
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Old 07-20-14, 09:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Moyene Corniche
As far as descending, it's all switchbacks with vertiginous drops on the downside and sharp rocks cliffs on the inside. Let's put it this way for a 2.5 hour loop, it's 20 minutes to descend back to sea level @ Monaco. the rest is all about climbing up to 900 meters. Probably because I ski raced I always loved descending on switchback mountain roads,treating it like running a GS or actually a super GS. If you are not hitting 75-80KPH descending then you are really not letting it go. It's all about picking your line and not handling the bike as you would a motorcycle. Two very completely different approaches. One with a low center of gravity and the ability to power out of a turn, the other with a relatively high center of gravity but also the ability to counter steer and drift both front and rear since it's such a small contact patch. I'll have to find some of the pictures of this loop and post them. ( They were not taken with an I-phone or even my canon 40D digital ).
One of the great things about that area is that you often get to join a group ride where some of the Pro's living locally will be on the ride also. Descending behind riders who do this day in and day out is really the best way to see the correct lines to take and make it thru.
I watched USAPCC descent off Independence Pass in the rain, and that night had dinner with my friend/part-time coach. This is the 6xTdF guy, and I asked him how they know how much brake to grab on a rainy descent that they're not familiar with.

"Brakes? You trust your tires and pray that there's no oil." He highlighted the situation: you're in a successful break, and maybe six of you summit together with a good lead, heading downhill to the finish. If you touch your brakes on a wet descent, and your break-mates don't, you're going to get fired for losing them. He told me a few stories when he was riding for one of the smaller teams, challenged by poor support, and nearly passed out from hypothermia on a rainy descent -- shaking uncontrollably at 45mph.

I had just descended behind the peloton in the rain, so the treacherous conditions were fresh in my mind. It really would be horrifying for most of us to attempt descending with these guys. I couldn't attempt it.
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Old 07-21-14, 04:46 AM
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That may sound obtuse to most riders but descending on passes and switchbacks does require minimal use of your brakes. Following some of those guy's was always a treat for me. ( That is one thing I miss about not being in Southern France and the luxury of within 15-20 minutes you are heading into the Alps.) With the terrain you can really work on literally letting it fly. You scrub speed by turning into your line, there really is no need to hit the brakes, it's more of a light feathering where you are letting the bike drift around while still maintaining control.
It's definitely not for the faint hearted, if you doubt yourself then you won't commit to the correct line and you'll be in trouble quickly.
It is very similar to alpine ski racing, you just have to let em run. But training with some of the top amateurs and Pro's in and around Nice and Monaco was worth more than any coaching. You just see the line and the fluidity of their riding. Luckily throughout the late 80's and 90's, I'd spend 2 to 3 months in Provence and Monaco every couple of years. It was fun although I'm not sure I would be eager to descend back down from Peille today as I did 20 years ago. Although it is still why I look forward to next year's Stage Race's like GMSR and KSR for the mountain fun. Now if only KSR would go back to being a 5 day stage race and lose that ridiculously flat TT and return the uphill prologue.


Last edited by Moyene Corniche; 07-21-14 at 08:50 AM.
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Old 07-21-14, 11:53 AM
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Originally Posted by rideaz
It's been a weird couple of weeks and I kind of lost my cycling mojo, but I still managed some power PRs this weekend :-)
I'm on the fence about trying to get to Master's Nats in Sept: just going to ride my bike and have fun in the meantime. If I end up going there to race, I'll just have to hope that it was enough!
The way you ride, masters Nat should not be a problem for you.
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Old 07-21-14, 12:10 PM
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Saturday: 32 miles with the A group

Sunday: Century, 4.5 hrs, 100 degrees hot. Took turns with a 5 man group, dropped off 2 at mile 45, at mile 75 I decided to stop and eat while my young friends sped on. Latched on another fast group till mile 90, front wheel flat which caused skidding and falling but luckily on the grass. No rain so it was a good weekend of cycling.
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Old 07-21-14, 01:54 PM
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Originally Posted by TexMac
The way you ride, masters Nat should not be a problem for you.
If you go, give me a shout, I'll be there.
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Old 07-21-14, 03:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Ygduf
It's probably the different muscle groups/muscle balance throughout the stroke given that at 11mph I don't mind sitting up a little higher than I do at 28mph.

I know this is complicated, but let me know if you have further questions.
So what you are saying is that you get a number that is only meaningful when going slowly uphill except that it is a bigger number than when going faster on the flats.

Got it.

So how exactly is this number useful when training on anything other than something significantly uphill?
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Old 07-21-14, 03:33 PM
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Originally Posted by TexMac
The way you ride, masters Nat should not be a problem for you.
Thanks Mac! Yeah, I have the desire to go. Just have to figure out how to actually get there! As for training, well, you know I just around anyways I haven't trained specifically for any races this year and it's been fine.
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Old 07-21-14, 03:53 PM
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Originally Posted by rideaz
Thanks Mac! Yeah, I have the desire to go. Just have to figure out how to actually get there! As for training, well, you know I just around anyways I haven't trained specifically for any races this year and it's been fine.
I think this is one of those instances where you may not logically pull it together so it makes good sense. If you have the support of friends and family to keep all the balls in the air that you normally juggle, and you trust them, then you might consider just pulling the trigger and taking them up on it. Then you can focus on making sure everyone knows what they need to know before you go, rather than feeling guilt about committing. Then whip out the massage gift cards and dinners out for those to whom you are in debt when you get back...

Kind of an ask for forgiveness angle, but responsibly. Don't know enough about your situation, but that's how I ended up going to watch the USAProCC. Enough people said, yeah, "we got this, go." And my wife said to commit before I made enough of a deal out of it that people started changing their minds
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Old 07-21-14, 04:07 PM
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Originally Posted by mollusk
So how exactly is this number useful when training on anything other than something significantly uphill?
TSS/STS/LTS and TSB are general guidelines at best, to begin with. I live with a measure of ambiguity within them.

My CP is different on flats vs. hills, but the difference is more pronounced the longer the time window. So TSS is using a lot of z4-5-6-7 intervals that are much, much, much shorter than an hour. At 1min, my power is basically equal, I would guess. At 5min, the difference is probably 1/2 the 10% I see at one hour. So 5% translated through TSS algorithm that weighs the stuff that is most equal the most: meh - It's just not enough to worry about.
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Old 07-21-14, 04:12 PM
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Originally Posted by waterrockets
I think this is one of those instances where you may not logically pull it together so it makes good sense. If you have the support of friends and family to keep all the balls in the air that you normally juggle, and you trust them, then you might consider just pulling the trigger and taking them up on it. Then you can focus on making sure everyone knows what they need to know before you go, rather than feeling guilt about committing. Then whip out the massage gift cards and dinners out for those to whom you are in debt when you get back...

Kind of an ask for forgiveness angle, but responsibly. Don't know enough about your situation, but that's how I ended up going to watch the USAProCC. Enough people said, yeah, "we got this, go." And my wife said to commit before I made enough of a deal out of it that people started changing their minds
Great insight and ideas WR! My kids would be taken care of and no problem to get time off work. My issue is finding someone to do the 11-12 hour drive with me. I don't feel comfortable driving there by myself. I think I might have it figured out though. Going to keep trying
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Old 07-21-14, 07:31 PM
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lol, training. i just ride my flat bar, flat pedals fixed gear around town in jorts and vans.


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Old 07-21-14, 08:31 PM
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Originally Posted by mike868y
lol, training. i just ride my flat bar, flat pedals fixed gear around town in jorts and vans.


I've seen this.

(It isn't a pretty sight)
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Old 07-21-14, 09:01 PM
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Good gawd.
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