Doge

The squat - IMO is the best single whole body exercise I can think of. I admire folks that do it well. But to my example. A 140lb person that can leg press 1,000lbs (700lbs equivalent) is at risk squatting 300lbs without focus on form and time building up supporting muscle groups. Supporting groups that I do not believe are needed for cycling power, and form that makes them look good in the gym.

hack

Hence my request for clarification as I interpreted the post re: gym work to suggest that the gym was not for "working out" as per your trainers comment.

With that, isn't strength development to increase speed "working out"? I guess I'm more confused than before, which is fine and also presents a great stopping point for me. As I've said somewhere on here before, your son is getting results, so keep on keeping on.

globecanvas

Just a note, I have added pis.tol squats to my body-weight-only strength routine, and man they are a cool exercise. Feels like a lot of very relevant muscles are getting worked.

I don't know anything about this guy, but this is a nice blog writeup on pis.tol squats:

https://maxwellsc.com/blog.cfm?blogID=60

gsteinb

form is king

wens

Is the goal to load the cycling power muscles as much as possible? Why? Even road sprinters only contract their muscles with a fraction of 400 llbs or 200 lbs per leg.

gsteinb

pretty easy to hate this place

Wylde06

I be back guys, im going to go to the gym to not work out.

gsteinb

I'm not really sure why this needed to be revisited.

I don't care how you or your kid train, what principles you base it on, or anything. That's your business. But Doge trots out a bunch of things as fact that are really anything but. He posts a photo of (presumably) his kid under a mass of weight. As a former national level bodybuilder I never pushed anything around like that.

How the gym isn't a workout escapes me. What a go fast muscle is opposed to anything else, as well.

I'm not honestly how or why you're convinced of anything. You don't race. You don't look like you train. Your son's coach, it seems, is a former pro bodybuilder from the 70s. And you're putting out as fact the nuances of various exercises on specific muscles as they relate to cycling without a wit of data to back that up, as well as how to avoid DOMS by only doing partial movements.

There's nothing to argue here, you're tilting at windmills.

Creatre

I didn't read through any of that. But be careful with anything that causes the knee to track in front of the ankle. Usually that's bad news for the knee.

Doge

His quotes that I found interesting:
"3. People desiring to increase their athleticism and mobility. For example, in the barbell squat, virtually no one can go into a deep, full squat safely. In my experience, full ROM is impossible for 95% of people out there.

... my kicks being rather weak and ineffectual because of my stubborn adherence (at the time) to heavy squats. What those squats gave me in strength was compensated in a lack of speed, mobility and power. "

Doge

Seems to be something about the nerves react when the whole muscle is brought under stress in a way they don't when just pumping them up with repetition.

gsteinb

This has become my defacto strength workout right now:

Four sets of two cycles. Each cycle has four exercises in it.

4 Sets

1-Dumbell Tri-set Deadlift/Squat/Lunge - 10 reps

2-Box Jump - 15 reps
3-Skater Plyo (8 reps hard)

4-Tony's Triangle - 5 reps per side


4 Sets-

1-Dumbell Single leg squat - 10 reps
2-Banded monster walks

mine seem much harder and take me about 90-120 secs - front back, side to side)


3-Skaters - 30 seconds more endurance oriented than the plyo one
4-Side Bridge Leg Lift


All in, with a warm up, this takes about an hour and I'm writing down 60-65 TSS for it.

furiousferret

So a question for some of the people that have been lifting to augment cycling for the past few years.

What points in the power curve does lifting / plyo help? 1 second to 1 minute, or is it not measurable?

Finding concrete information out there is tough, because if you read enough articles about lifting / cycling, they all contradict each other.

Ygduf

I'd rather not. It's going to be a slew of bull**** anecdotes about what worked for whom, core strength, stabilizer muscles, and "sprinting with your whole body".

Any educated answer would need a controlled study of trained cyclists participating in the different lifting regimes. You're not going to find that here and most people here can't handle any assertion that what they are doing isn't the "best" without crying tears of blood.

Hermes

I posted two links from USA Cycling on this. One that discusses the why and the other on what to do.


@gsteinb BTW, that is your first mention on BF.

More importantly, I do a very similar workout to what you do and estimate it is worth about a 50 TSS. Jumping is very fatiguing (for me).

Here is an interesting article on jumping and calculating the peak and average power in watts of a vertical jump. It is a lot power and this site has a calculator. And better yet, there is some jump wang so one can compare oneself to a group.

I can easily jump 18 inches and usually include some 24 inch jumps. However, when jumping to a box, I tend to raise my legs so it is not all vertical. By the calculator, if I jump 60 cm of vertical, I will use about 1200 watts of average power.

Jumping has always been easy for me for whatever the reason.

hack

I was hoping for a gif.

But really, that's the truth there and even the results of a study could be questioned (sample size, monitoring, blah blah blah). Therefore, I fully support the notion that people do whatever the heck they want for their own training including NO weights and building the needed strength for successful riding on the bike.

Hermes

When I saw that Fudgy posted, the only reason I clicked on the thread was for a gif and then I wrote my BS.

hack

The power numbers the different formulae kick out have quite the range (1150-9000 watts when I input my numbers).

hack

i felt a bit let down

gsteinb

When I get done with that workout I'm cooked. I figure it's equal to an hour of stout pace work so I picked a TSS in that range.

gsteinb

And many of those studies indicate that there's not a lot of usefulness for cyclist to lift unless they're doing pure sprint events.

rkwaki

THis right here is a perfect way to blow up your knees, hips and lower back...

rkwaki

And this is why we should listen to rkwaki when it comes to leg work...
Oh yeah and this is a pic from a little bit ago. They are even nastier, bigger and stronger now...

MDcatV

how 'bout this, if you think lifting is fun, do it. if you don't, don't.

wens

My
Dude, stop poorly parroting a coach about stuff you don't understand. If I assume you mean motor unit recruitment, he'd be better off doing plyometric exercises. Citation:JPHYSIOL : J Physiol