There was a writer, back around 1960, who used a chemical treatment to turn his skin dark. He later wrote a book about his experiences living as a Black man in America called "Black Like Me". Scary stuff.

If you could spend one week in Houston in 2005, living as a Black man, you would never whine about Chris Rock again. You would learn some obscure ways to get arrested in Houston, though, such as "walking in a street, where a sidewalk is provided"....you would also enjoy walking through Macy's, with your own personal escort of two "undercover" security guards, following you aisle to aisle. Then, for grins, apply for the management training program at Macy's.

Filly, you seem strangely disturbed about the "Miss Black America" contest. Here in Houston, we have a "Miss Chinatown" contest, a "Miss India" contest, and there are similar events in the Greek community, the Egyptian community, and the Hispanic community. Folks from over a hundred nations live in Houston, and most of them enjoy celebrating their history and their heritage. Why does America's diversity upset you and frighten you so much?

I've read this post with interest and haven't posted, but I felt the need to now.

alanbikehouston is right. The unfortunate attitude that fighting racism by avoiding all reference to race is honorable, but misguided. The predominate racism in this PC world is undeclared and worse systematic. It is the rare instance when a person with racist views openly states them to people who may or may not agree. It is the hidden racism that is more harmful. Even worse is the systematic racism in our education systems and business world. The awards systems that honor minorities are in direct defiance of the systematic racism in the industries they honor. The fact that a black winning an best actor/actress oscar was still an issue a few years ago, shows that despite the progress made over the last few decades it is still not over. The figures alanbikehouston quoted about UT is not an abnormality in the colleges and universites in this country. In fact, they are the norm. Lastly Chris Rock's humor is an artistic statement about empowerment no matter how you look at it. He humor knows no limits. He attacks all races equally, including african-americans. It is the same as the empowerment of african-americans using the n-word. It is a known fact that the usage of the word "man" in reference to another individual (as in "What's up man?"), stemmed from the underground jazz scene of the 40's and 50's. That scene was dominated by black americans, and that term was used in response to them being refered to as "boy". The modern usage of the n-word by african-americans, whether it is conscious or not, is a direct attack on the use of it by racists.

Unfortuantely, I cannot do justice to this isssue in an internet post, but I felt I would at least touch on them.

Since we're now delving into things that go a bit below the surface of casual conversation, what I have to post next is definitely far off the scope of a cycling forum. If interested in continuing this "debate," PM me, and I'll be glad to share my opinion further.

There was also a radio newsman from Cincinnati who did the same thing, inspired by the writer. I believe it helped to earn him his fifth Buckeye-Newshawk Award.

HJR is right, look in an ideal world we would never have to deal with race. But denying we're different is not being 'non racist'. Let's face it, we have differences aside from skin or whatever. We aren't all the same- what's wrong with saying that? We're raised different,we have different experiences, etc. Just like people who live in the city are different from people raised in the burbs.

Also, i don't think it's unusual to have a black cycling club. Not in atlanta, anyways- isn't the city like 70 percent black? They're the majority! Listen we have women's cycling clubs. It's just for bonding purposes, it's not like a restricted country club. I am sure the black cycling club would let anyone join if they wanted. This isn't 1952!

So you're basically saying it is OK to have a Miss White Canada or USA pageant? A White History month? That sure recognizes the differences and "what's wrong with saying that".

My point is that racism is racism, no matter who does it. And that two wrongs don't make a right.


tomcat

It was good to read comments from Alanbikehouston and HJR. You responded better to filly then I could have. If any of you are ever in Atlanta looking for a ride look me up.

As long as the African-American community continues its deathgrip on victimhood race will continue to be the excuse for African-Americans to bemoan their "inequality".

Whose fault is it that the majority of lawyers, corporate CEO's and tenents of exclusive neighborhoods in St. Louis are white? Is it white America's fault because of a perceived lack of oppurtunity for blacks? Just to let you guys in on a little secret...NO ONE cares what color your skin is when it comes to business oppurtunity. Business is about ONE thing - how much money can you make for me. Corporate America would hire little blue martians if they made the company more money.

Why does the African American community continue to offer excuses that deflect ALL blame from the individual? As long as its leaders refuse to force blacks to accept responsiblilty for their own actions and decisions without playing the "systemic racism" card, the African American community in this country will NEVER break the shackles of a victim mentality to fully realize the potential of an energetic and dynamic population.

-Mike

I appreciate everybody's contribution to the discussion. The world needs more discussion and understanding. What I don't like is the attitude that discussing these issues is somehow non-PC. I feel that we have sweep alot under the rug trying not to step on toes. Anyhow, it ain't about blacks and whites anymore because we have the whole rainbow here in the USA with Latinos now the larger minority. Sounds like time for a Latino History Month and Ms. Latino America pageant. Silly isn't it.


tommy

You butchered my comment, which is fine, but please use ellipsis' next time to indicate that.

I'm not sure if you're responding to me or just using my quote. I never said that racism didn't exist, or that it wasn't a problem, I'm just a little frustrated having somebody portray my city (St. Louis) as Selma circa 1950.

I think your comments would be better if directed towards the "why do we even need to talk about race" people on the thread. What I said, and your response don't make sense when read back-to-back. It is almost if you used my quote, out of context, to reply to someone else.

I have no problem with people starting black cycling groups, or wearing shirts that say "Black by popular demand" etc, I have no problem with it at all. I have always understood this as acceptable because african americans are a minority. Kinda like when people describe Eminem as a "White rapper".

Not sure why I am feeling the need to defend myself. I really wish you wouldn't have used my quote out of context, or accuse me of taking the same position as filly and others, which I haven't. I never said anything about being past the need to discuss race. Your "hard work and ability" comments, again, I'm not sure why this is directed to me --do you have me confused with someone else on this thread?

I apologize if my post appears to be a personal criticism of you. It was not intended to be a criticism of you. You are proud of the good things going on in your city in 2005. My comments were directed at the fact that, in your city, in my city, in every large American city, there is still a long, long way to go.

So, yes, things are better than fifty years ago. But, I can't tell the inner city teenagers that I counsel that they will get the same "deal" in life as a rich white kid out in the suburbs. That would be a lie, and they would know it is a lie.

d
Well you're right about that but I think you're misunderstanding here. I certainly am not advocating segregation. What I mean is that it's okay to talk about our differences, rather than pretending they don't exist. I was thinking of how years ago all these PC types I knew would think it was racist to say 'oh, he's greek' or whatever. As if acknowledging someone's heritage was an insult. They'd say,"What do you mean he's greek?" It was so ridiculous. Why shouldn't we acknowledge who we are? What are we supposed to do,pretend we're all exactly the same? It drove me nuts. Alan certainly is right though, we can't pretend that we all have the same opportunities. But that's also class, too. A poor white kid won't have the same advantages as a rich white kid, and a poor black kid even more so. You can't help WHERE you're born either.

The Native Americans want all of your asses to go home to your respective home lands. So don't let the door hit you in the ass! ;)

PS - Please leave the nice stuff you built while you were here.

Let us look at the legal profession, as just one example of "opportunity" in America.

Most of the lawyers in the USA making less than $50,000 per year work in government offices. The U.S. Justice Department, and the District Attorney's Office in major cities such as Houston, New York, and Los Angeles have "tough" anti-discrimination policies for hiring and promoting lawyers. So, depending on the city, 10% or 15% of their lawyers are African-Americans. In big cities, the most experienced trial lawyers are prosecutors, so most African-American prosecutors try more cases in a year than some "Big Firm" lawyers do in a lifetime.

Across the street from the U.S. Attorney's Office is a law firm with a hundred lawyers. They pay new lawyers who have just gotten a law license more than $100,000 per year. Partners average more than $500,000 per year. And, this large private firm has never had a Black partner and never will.

The partners at the law firm have lunch at a private country club. That country club has never had a Black member, and it never will. That large law firm represents Ford, GM, Exxon, companies with millions of African-American customers - customers whose dollars are funding the private law firm and paying the lawyers "dues" at a club where the only African-Americans are in the kitchen, washing dishes.

The African-American lawyers working at the District Attorney's Office do not lack self-confidence, and they don't think of themselves "as victims". When they go up against the "big firm" lawyers, three or four times out of five, the "big firm" lawyers are going to get their rears kicked. But, no matter how many times a Black lawyer "beats" a "big firm" lawyer in trial, the "Big Firm" partners are not going to say "Hey, we need to hire this guy".

Why are less than 1% of the partners at "large" law firms in the USA African-Americans? I have my theories. And, and I sure that the people who acquire their "thoughts" from Rush Limbaugh have their theories as well.

And, the pattern in of hiring and promotion in law is similar to the pattern of hiring and promotion for top corporate executives, tenured faculty at leading universities, and in every other "elite" profession in America.

The saddest proof of how "opportunity" actually works in America can be seen in the man who holds the "top" job in the USA today. A "C" student. A drinking problem. A drug problem. Drifting from job to job, failing at each one, up until the age of forty. Now, he is President of the United States.

Does anyone think that an African-American with THAT resume could ever be "President" of a small town PTA, let alone become the President of the United States?

Uhh, what about the fault of the applicant? Maybe he/she should ensure he's the best for the job. Maybe then he'll get the job.

[
Listening to the radio today I heard one sportscaster commenting on the fact that Donovan McNabb's ethnicity quarterbacking in the Superbowl wasn't a story anymore.[/QUOTE]

His ethnicity quarterbacking in the Superbowl was never an issue to anyone other than Rush Limbaugh, moral leader of the ignorant among the far right, former sports comentator and poster boy for personal accountability. I think he also advised GW on his prescription drug program.

personally, i think white people are stupid.

alanbikehouston,

According to the 2000 census the polulation breakdown was
75.1% white
12.3% black

According to the American Bar Association's Commission on Racial and Ethnic Diversity in the Profession the breakdown for judges, magistrates and lawyers by race is as follows:
83.2% white
8.8% black

The disparity when viewed as a percentage of the population shows the problem to be much smaller than it is generally portrayed. My point is not to argue numbers nor is it to excuse the racism that does exist in this country. Which goes both ways. The more important point is what to do about it. Is the glass half full or half empty? Much of the black culture in America sees the glass as half empty and want to place blame.

I worked and coached high school soccer for 5 years at a private school in Virginia whose goal was to offer and provide an elite prep school education for disadvantaged and poor kids. 80% of the school's population was black and another 15% hispanic. One thing the school administration reinforced day after day was for students to take responsiblity for their actions and decisions regardless of the color of their skin or their socio-economic status. The result of the school's refusal to accept excuses has resulted in a student body that seeks to overcome obstacles instead of accepting excuses. Once the kids' mindset changes from "I'm a victim" to "I will do the best I can with what I have" the change in the child is profound. What you end up with are students full of confidence in themselves and their abilities as human beings.

ALL PEOPLE - black, white, brown, american, african, european, asian - will rise to the level of expectation put before them. As long as a segment of society allows itself an excuse it will have no reason to reach for a higher goal.

-Mike

are people who eat ketchup racist? my question is just as silly as yours

No excuses, just facts: an African-American who graduates first in his class at the University of Texas has a ZERO chance of being hired at the five largest law firms in Houston. In fact, he is unlikely to even get an interview with those firms. Yet, many of the partners at those firms were themselves just average, or below average students while in law school.

It is outrageous to blame the victims of racism for being a victim. Slaveowners, not slaves, were to blame for slavery. The people who run large corporations, law firms, and universities, are responsible for the ongoing discrimination committed by their organizations, not the people they discriminate against.

Within thirty years, white Anglos will be a minority of Americans. Three hundred years of bullying by the white majority will come to an abrupt halt. And, in their new status as a "minority group", white Anglo Americans will come to understand the importance of "fair treatment" and equal opportunities for minorities.

good. it's about time.

Alanbikehouston,

My intention is in no way to lay blame on the black community. You and I are on the same side here. My intention is simply to point out that a "victim mentality" regardless of race, ethnicity, gender, disability or the type of greivance or wrongdoing can shackle people to a nihilistic outlook that leaves no place for hope.

There are two different issues running concurrently. One is the real racism that does exist and is morally, spiritually and ethically reprehensible. The other is a denial of legitimate responsiblity by crying racism whenever real accountibility is demanded. This is not a blanket assertion but it is a fact of life that the black community in this country needs to address. The civil rights leadership in the 1960's held up personal responsiblity and accountability as essential elements towards the elimination of racial and ethnic separation in America.

There is room at the local, regional and national levels for a legitimate discourse with regard to race in America. But politicians and activists with economic interests are NOT the people to be having these discussions when their intent is to create sound bites to increase their national exposure. This applies to the Jesse Helms and the Jesse Jacksons of the world. The Jesse's tend to be the mirror images of each other. Jesse Helms doesn't see racism anywhere, Jesse Jackson sees racism everywhere.

This thread has been (for the most part) a great example of the discussion this country needs. We can have differences in opinion and personal experience but no one so far (with the exception of one poster) has launched invective just to provoke a response. What could be the potential for positive communication if every message forum on the net could leave out the vitriolic nonsense of idiots and talk openly and honestly about race?

The longer the discussion goes on the more we will find we have in common.

I won't make a difference as the same people who have the money now will have the money then.

I was just thinking that compared to nascar, cycling is like basketball. I don't really follow nascar but I don't think I've seen one driver of color- other than white.

The good thing too about cycling, unlike nascar, is that you can have local clubs. It's kind of hard to get a nascar club together.

And being A Canuck that makes you...............