knoxtnhorn

I understand the basic concepts of drafting; however, two different scenarios arose lately in professional races that have me perplexed.

1) Team 1 and Team 2 both had riders competing for the overall title. Race takes to the mountains. Team 1 has their top rider break away halfway through a high mountain stage. Team 2 sends someone forward to reel him back in. What? How does Team 2's rider have any effect on Team 1's rider? I understand Team 2's rider could mess with his rhythm at times by taking the lead and then slowing down. But that seems like an easy fix for Team 1's rider. What, exactly, does the term "reeling" in imply?

2) I was watching one of the Italian races and a lone rider had crested a high mountain and was on the way down. The trailing group of about 15 riders followed a little over a minute behind. The lead rider began to lose a 5-10 seconds a minute on the way down despite the road being extremely windy and, seemingly, going at top speed. Again, I understand drafting but how could a group of riders descend faster than one individual? Seems as if, on a really windy road, the group would lose the advantage of drafting and slightly slow one another down. Maybe this was just an anomaly and the lead rider was just not good at descending.

jsharr

Reeling in is more getting into the riders head

https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread...ing-the-puller

This article talks about descending speeds being based on rider weight. Often lighter riders go over the top first due to light weight and descend slower due to light weight, while the reverse is true of heavier riders.

https://www.sportsci.org/jour/9804/dps.html

Nick Bain

that is more of tactics than drafting.

merlinextraligh

Scenario No 1, the rider from Team 2 is marking the rider from Team 1. Thus Rider 1 has to decide whether to pull Rider 2 to the line if Rider 1 just sits on. Antoher way to look at it is Team 2 is hedging their bets, if Rider 1 stays way, they've got a rider in the break, and a chance to win the stage.

Scenario No 2, drafting is more important in the wind. Head winds, and crosswinds (see echelon) give the peleton more advantge over a single rider. Also the aerodynamics of drating are accentuated at higher speeds downhill.

caloso

2). Maybe the solo rider is just a crappy descender.

Clipped_in

At 6'-3" & ~195# you can trust me that this is true. Although, if its a winding descent with tight hairpin corners the big guys are also disadvantaged because they have a higher center of gravity on the bike and cannot corner quite as well.

Or if you don't believe me ask Taylor Phinney.

Bacciagalupe

1) I concur that it's psychological / tactical.

I may be wrong, but I believe a more typical occurrence is: The breakaway goes up the hill first, and the top riders slowly catch up to them. One of the top riders accelerates in an attempt to break away from the other top riders. The announcers may say "they reeled him in," but what they really mean is "they caught up to him." If the accelerating rider is lucky, he'll make a couple of riders blow up (i.e. work too hard and fall out of the main group). If he's insanely lucky or just a lot better than everyone else, he can lose the group.

At any rate, they are not literally making that rider work any harder.


2) Some riders are better at descending than others.

In some cases it can be weight, e.g. a guy who weighs more will descend a little bit faster.

But in most cases, it's about technical ability. Some riders are much more capable of descending at high speeds, and are more willing to take risks to take back a few seconds. Other riders are not good at descending and don't want to take risks.

pdedes

the only thing you need to know is that they keep the gravity on during weekends.

Nerull

When you break away alone, you have lots of motivation to keep going and get the stage win. When a guy from one of the big teams is sitting on your wheel the entire time, you know they're just waiting to go around you at the finish. A lot of the motivation goes away and it can make people slow down, making it easier for the peloton to catch up. As they approach the finish, you will often see the guy signalling like a madman for the guy behind to pull, but he'll just calmly sit there and wheelsuck. He's not trying to keep the breakaway alive, he's trying to kill the other riders motivation so the rest of the team can catch up.

wphamilton

1) I think the Team 1 rider has to decide whether he's willing to pull Team 2 rider along, (who's not going to put out any work) or else fade back to the peloton and try again. If the break stays away, #2 will be fresher and maybe steal the win.

2) Drafting seems like it would be even more effective at the higher downhill speeds than going uphill, giving the group an advantage. Racers evidently like to attack to get away on the uphills and into the wind because they can get more separation and sometimes put a hurt on the rest of the field. So he may also have been a little tired on the down side.

Just from the physics and armchair tactics - I'm not a racer. They have several good threads about it in the racing forum.

carpediemracing 

Moved to 33/Racing as you'll get more answers here.

wphamilton

You're one one of the ones who can answer it!

carpediemracing 

First off it's important to keep in mind that there's drafting at maybe three broad levels - downhills, flats, and uphills. There's also individual rider technique, like how to corner. Drafting on downhills is very significant - it helps a lot when you have a draft and it really hurts if you don't. If you're in a draft you may have to brake or coast in order not to hit the rider/s in front.

On flats it's the same but you may have to work a bit. I was led out before a sprint (where my teammate sacrificed his chances to put me up front just before the sprint). We go 35 mph into a pretty strong wind. He explodes spectacularly but I'm actually recovering - my heartrate drops 5 bpm at 35 mph.

Go to about 8:00 for the start of the leadout.

On uphills there's still a minor draft. It's closer to the benefit that runners get from one another. The riders still have to climb the hill so a rider with a poor power/weight ratio will get dropped anyway. A rider with a good power/weight ratio will be able to stay with similar riders. Whoever is pulling will have to work a bit harder. Relating it to me, I'm such a poor climber that even in massive headwind climbs I still get shelled pretty quickly.

In your scenario #1, break in the mountains and an opposing team sending out a rider to "reel him in", the Team2 rider, if he can catch up to the Team1 rider ("bridge up to him" "reel him in" these refer to "catching up" either individually or as a group) then the Team2 rider can simply follow the Team1 rider. On a climb the draft is minor, 15-20 watts according to Tyler Hamilton, but at the limit that's substantial. Mentally it's much easier to follow than to lead. The idea is that if the Team2 rider could climb fast enough to catch the Team1 rider then the Team2 rider is very strong. If a very strong rider follows a slightly weaker rider for the rest of the stage then the stronger rider has a much better chance of winning the race.

In pro racing there is almost never "negative" riding, like getting to the front and slowing down. It's frowned upon. In the 2 rider scenario above the Team2 rider would simply follow the Team1 rider, never offering help (so never contributing) but also probably never purposely slowing him down.

For sponsorship reasons it may benefit Team1 to keep going regardless, if it's a small team that needs exposure etc. The Giro often has smaller teams contesting and looking to get TV time. To get second in a stage would be a total coup for that team. You may see similar moves in the Tour of California where a domestic US team works super hard in a long break just to get TV coverage.

In #2 there are a few major factors.
1. Weight of rider. Good climbers are often quite light and don't descend as well. When I went from 190-ish to 155-ish over one winter (I'm 5'7") I found to my dismay that I had to pedal down descents when riding with others. I used to do regular training camp type trips to SoCal, staying with a former teammate and good friend. He and I would ride together. At 190 I was out descending him like crazy - there's one clip where after a mile of descending Palomar Mountain I'm about 45 seconds ahead of him. When I went out there at 155 I had to sprint down the hills to stay with him.

In pro racing you'll see the super light climbers actually get dropped on descents. It's a combination of poor cornering technique (below) and losing the draft (usually because they don't have a lot of peak power).

2. Peak power. On a winding descent with lot of switchbacks a rider has to put down a lot of power accelerating out of the turns. A stronger rider can gain time in such a situation. Usually very good climbers don't make a lot of peak power, hence they don't contest field sprints and the like. This works against them when repeatedly sprinting out of corners.

3. Cornering technique. If you had the misfortune of watching some of the worst descenders in the peloton (Michael Rasmussen, Levi Leipheimer, etc) then the rider is at fault for not cornering well. On very technical descents a good bike handler can make up a lot of time - watch Yaroslov Popovich, I think in the 07? Giro? 08? He gains something like 2 minutes on one descent, he's going visibly faster than the others, so fast that the TV helicopter doesn't see him for a bit and follows the second rider on the descent.

In solo cornering on a descent you don't know well you have to do a late apex line. This means you turn in very late, you don't do the normal outside-inside-outside. The two riders named above turn in early by habit and therefore end up almost going off the road at the exit of the turn. A particularly brutal early apex crash is one in the 08? 2007, Moletta (warning subtly graphic picture). He turns in early, panics, and hits a wall/pole at speed, breaking his leg.

carpediemracing 

Heh I was working on it

botto 

move it back. please.

wphamilton

Nope, we're here now and you've gotta put up with us

knoxtnhorn

Thanks for the responses. That helps quite a bit.

knoxtnhorn

BTW, #2 came into focus last night in a group ride. I've only done a couple in my biking "career" thus far. I'm 6' 195 lbs. Being inexperienced in a group, I mostly hung to the back so as not to be "that guy" that gets in the way, doesn't corner correctly, etc... I noticed that I always flew right up to the pack on downhills. Kind of odd that 195 is considered heavy for a group of advanced riders. (Not saying I'm advanced; just the group I was with.) I'd get dropped by 50 feet every once in awhile but easily catch up on the downhills.

carpediemracing 

Being behind the group you plus weighing on the higher end of the scale you have two things working for you - gravity and the draft. I'm no lightweight (I used to weigh 215 lbs, currently in the 170s) but I'm quite heavy compared to those around me. At 155 I was closer to the normal I guess, and I couldn't descend well.

The draft is more significant on a descent due to the higher speeds. Also if you do nothing on a descent you go faster up to a certain point, versus on the flats or uphills where you slow or stop if you do nothing. This means any energy input is making you go faster.

I'd recommend that you (cautiously) work your way to the front on a descent or two. You may find that when you do find yourself at the front of a descent that the others are the ones that get in the way, don't corner correctly, etc.

One year in SoCal on unfamiliar roads, unfamiliar route, with a group I didn't know, I tried to ride conservatively as the riders were very fit and quite intimidating. Plus I had no idea of the route/terrain and I was trying to save my reserves for any hills we'd hit. Nonetheless I found myself constantly at the front of the group on descents. In order not to get lost etc I'd stay behind the lead rider, sitting second spot out of 20-30 riders. At some point a friend (my SoCal host and the only one I knew in the group) overheard some guys talking about "the guy from Connecticut really knows how to descend". It wasn't about descending as much as it was about cornering. If you can corner you'll be able to descend.

https://sprinterdellacasa.blogspot.co...g-crashes.html

beatlebee 

CDR: Did I read that right: turn in late while solo descending? Can you explain that a bit more? Thanks

waterrockets 

One note on #2: In a coasting descent, two riders of equal weight can out-descend a solo rider of the same weight on a straight course (no cornering skills needed). For the pair, the rear rider can coast up into the leader's draft with a fair bit of speed differential. At that point, he can push the lead rider (hand on hip), giving him the energy saved in the draft, or he can come around and use that energy to pass the other rider. This can be repeated and is significantly faster than solo coasting. The pushing version is much more efficient since it keeps the frontal area of the pair lower compared to side-by-side passing.

Throw pedaling and rider weight in the mix, and it all still applies. Multiple heavier riders who couldn't keep up on the climb are going to destroy a solo pocket climber on the descent, even if everyone knows how to descend.

waterrockets 

Along the lines of pushing, there used to be a technique known as a "Russian echelon," where a TTT team would all ride hand-on-hip, tailing off into a good echelon angle, and not rotate. Very fast, but outlawed.

The first photo I found of this technique is on botto's blog.

carpediemracing 

haha

botto 

link.

HMF

Turn in late so you are sure of where the apex is. If you turn in too early, then the turn gets tighter, you'll overshoot your turn and go to the outside.