When to be in the drops??
11-26-13, 03:03 PM
#151
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11-26-13, 03:43 PM
#152
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I'm fairly certain that if you threw 100 non-swimmers into a pond a 5 of them would make it to shore without drowning and at least one would suggest that swimming lessons weren't necessary.
Wait till your upgrade point expires.
11-26-13, 03:49 PM
#154
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11-26-13, 03:51 PM
#155
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New racer I take it...
Sketchy to some is a regular day at the office for others. The difference is I was a Cat 1 by 18. Did I do these things on a regular basis? No. Are there riders who do? Yes. In all the racing I have done I crashed in exactly 1 race, taken down by the guy I was in a break with. As I have said before I race very aggressive but I do not race dangerous. A few years ago my buddy watched from the sidelines as I took my hand off the bars and gave a guy a little nudge by the hip as he continued to come into me.
I don't pick the confrontations but the last thing you want to do is pull alongside post race and start shooting your mouth off to me, I don't handle that well. I have in many cases told guys to get out of the way as I am coming through with a full head of steam and they choose to sit up or take ****ty lines pushing me to the outside. When I'm coming through at 40+ mph and 1600+ watts I'm not easing up to touch the brakes, I am coming around you...
Sketchy to some is a regular day at the office for others. The difference is I was a Cat 1 by 18. Did I do these things on a regular basis? No. Are there riders who do? Yes. In all the racing I have done I crashed in exactly 1 race, taken down by the guy I was in a break with. As I have said before I race very aggressive but I do not race dangerous. A few years ago my buddy watched from the sidelines as I took my hand off the bars and gave a guy a little nudge by the hip as he continued to come into me.
I don't pick the confrontations but the last thing you want to do is pull alongside post race and start shooting your mouth off to me, I don't handle that well. I have in many cases told guys to get out of the way as I am coming through with a full head of steam and they choose to sit up or take ****ty lines pushing me to the outside. When I'm coming through at 40+ mph and 1600+ watts I'm not easing up to touch the brakes, I am coming around you...
I started racing at 16 and was a 1 by 20, so not far off from you. And sketchy was sketchy then as it is now.
Taking your hands off the bar to touch a hip or something like that isn't what I'm talking about. Diving in on people, nefarious "blocking" tactics, stuff that puts people in danger.
You're telling people what to do in bike races? Wow. No wonder you don't get pleasant reactions.
11-26-13, 03:59 PM
#156
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I don't disagree with much of what you have posted but I would pose a couple of questions:
1. Have you ever raced an NCC level crit?
2. Have you ever raced a true P/1 Crit?
3. Have you ever spent time with a pro team as they discuss tactics when they want to deliver their sprinter to the front?
4. Have you ever sat down with a pro rider and asked him the questions that you seem to have the answers to what it takes to get there?
If you answer yes to all these questions then I will have to reconsider the path I took, if you don't then I would take the time to observe (watch some videos) and learn.
I had a young teammate do his first international race last year (Tour de L'Abitibi), when he came back he called me to discuss how to race aggressively as he could bot belive that a small 135 pound European rider could push his 170 pound frame off the race line at will.
A local or State level Cat 1 is very different than a Cat 1 with international experience.
1. Have you ever raced an NCC level crit?
2. Have you ever raced a true P/1 Crit?
3. Have you ever spent time with a pro team as they discuss tactics when they want to deliver their sprinter to the front?
4. Have you ever sat down with a pro rider and asked him the questions that you seem to have the answers to what it takes to get there?
If you answer yes to all these questions then I will have to reconsider the path I took, if you don't then I would take the time to observe (watch some videos) and learn.
I had a young teammate do his first international race last year (Tour de L'Abitibi), when he came back he called me to discuss how to race aggressively as he could bot belive that a small 135 pound European rider could push his 170 pound frame off the race line at will.
A local or State level Cat 1 is very different than a Cat 1 with international experience.
Raced a lot of NRCs
Yes. NRCs, National Championships, and a summer in Europe.
Yes, on a couple of occasions.
I don't have any questions. I've been there. I've trained and raced at that level. I didn't have to take people out to do it.
The path you took and the path I took may be very different. The point is I got to that level, as did many others I know, without resorting to dangerous tactics that had the potential to seriously injure others. At the end of the day, I absolutely don't want some newly minted Cat 2 weekend warrior coming into a turn determined not to brake because he's read about pushing 1600 watts and 40 mph and fighting for the win" and he'll be damned if he's going to touch the brakes and show any "weakness" and end up taking me and a bunch of other people out.
I'm a Cat 1 with international experience so I'll stick with that experience.
Just not necessary.
11-26-13, 03:59 PM
#157
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Cat 1, actually.
I started racing at 16 and was a 1 by 20, so not far off from you. And sketchy was sketchy then as it is now.
Taking your hands off the bar to touch a hip or something like that isn't what I'm talking about. Diving in on people, nefarious "blocking" tactics, stuff that puts people in danger.
You're telling people what to do in bike races? Wow. No wonder you don't get pleasant reactions.
I started racing at 16 and was a 1 by 20, so not far off from you. And sketchy was sketchy then as it is now.
Taking your hands off the bar to touch a hip or something like that isn't what I'm talking about. Diving in on people, nefarious "blocking" tactics, stuff that puts people in danger.
You're telling people what to do in bike races? Wow. No wonder you don't get pleasant reactions.
And to end it off the way you did : "You're telling people what to do in bike races? Wow. No wonder you don't get pleasant reactions." - unnecessary. But as we live in the same town, know the same people and would race in the same circles (If I were to ever race again) I'm sure we will get to chat about this a little more...
11-26-13, 04:00 PM
#158
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In my post I did not refer to 'dangerous tactics' just the reality of racing, to say you've never done any of those things tells me you are a hypocrit or full of it.
As someone who on this board tries to keep it moving forward I'm out of this discussion as I have seen your behavior elsewhere.
As a teacher you would think you know better...
11-26-13, 04:01 PM
#159
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11-26-13, 04:06 PM
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I am going to back away from responding to this post as, much like on Slowtwitch you are here to pick fights and I won't bring myself to that level. I looked at some of the responses you have on Slowtwitch and the continual back and forth you barfed all over that site.
And to end it off the way you did : "You're telling people what to do in bike races? Wow. No wonder you don't get pleasant reactions." - unnecessary. But as we live in the same town, know the same people and would race in the same circles (If I were to ever race again) I'm sure we will get to chat about this a little more...
And to end it off the way you did : "You're telling people what to do in bike races? Wow. No wonder you don't get pleasant reactions." - unnecessary. But as we live in the same town, know the same people and would race in the same circles (If I were to ever race again) I'm sure we will get to chat about this a little more...
You seem to think you have to race aggressively to be at the pointy end. I'm saying differently. There are a lot of people on here that haven't raced at the P/1/2 level. I wouldn't want some aspiring racer thinking that it stops being about fitness and tactics and more about who has the balls to ride more dangerously.
You're right, it was unnecessary. But you've mentioned it multiple times. I can only assume you do so to illustrate how much of a badass you are on the bike. I don't think a bike race has to end in an altercation. I don't think it should. Is that something you actually disagree with?
Sounds good. As long as it's not a result of dangerous riding!
11-26-13, 04:09 PM
#161
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As am I. Difference is you're new to town...
In my post I did not refer to 'dangerous tactics' just the reality of racing, to say you've never done any of those things tells me you are a hypocrit or full of it.
As someone who on this board tries to keep it moving forward I'm out of this discussion as I have seen your behavior elsewhere.
As a teacher you would think you know better...
In my post I did not refer to 'dangerous tactics' just the reality of racing, to say you've never done any of those things tells me you are a hypocrit or full of it.
As someone who on this board tries to keep it moving forward I'm out of this discussion as I have seen your behavior elsewhere.
As a teacher you would think you know better...
Call me a hypocrite if you must. Maybe I made some overly-aggressive moves. In fact, I'm sure I did at times. That was a while ago. It's not something I'm keen to engage in now as I see there's slightly more to it. People evolve.
As a teacher, I realize that.
11-26-13, 04:15 PM
#162
fuggitivo solitario
I am going to back away from responding to this post as, much like on Slowtwitch you are here to pick fights and I won't bring myself to that level. I looked at some of the responses you have on Slowtwitch and the continual back and forth you barfed all over that site.
And to end it off the way you did : "You're telling people what to do in bike races? Wow. No wonder you don't get pleasant reactions." - unnecessary. But as we live in the same town, know the same people and would race in the same circles (If I were to ever race again) I'm sure we will get to chat about this a little more...
And to end it off the way you did : "You're telling people what to do in bike races? Wow. No wonder you don't get pleasant reactions." - unnecessary. But as we live in the same town, know the same people and would race in the same circles (If I were to ever race again) I'm sure we will get to chat about this a little more...
otherwise the wako is great
11-26-13, 04:20 PM
#164
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I'm not here to pick fights. I'm here to voice a dissenting opinion.
You seem to think you have to race aggressively to be at the pointy end. I'm saying differently. There are a lot of people on here that haven't raced at the P/1/2 level. I wouldn't want some aspiring racer thinking that it stops being about fitness and tactics and more about who has the balls to ride more dangerously.
You're right, it was unnecessary. But you've mentioned it multiple times. I can only assume you do so to illustrate how much of a badass you are on the bike. I don't think a bike race has to end in an altercation. I don't think it should. Is that something you actually disagree with?
Sounds good. As long as it's not a result of dangerous riding!
You seem to think you have to race aggressively to be at the pointy end. I'm saying differently. There are a lot of people on here that haven't raced at the P/1/2 level. I wouldn't want some aspiring racer thinking that it stops being about fitness and tactics and more about who has the balls to ride more dangerously.
You're right, it was unnecessary. But you've mentioned it multiple times. I can only assume you do so to illustrate how much of a badass you are on the bike. I don't think a bike race has to end in an altercation. I don't think it should. Is that something you actually disagree with?
Sounds good. As long as it's not a result of dangerous riding!
I don't need to point out much just pointing out my experiences that's it...
I have only ever once started something, why? Because while fighting for a wheel a local guy put me into a curb at speed by deliberately chopping my front wheel. Perhaps I need to take more time and go into detail about the things I write but most here know what I'm saying.
You'll get to know some of the firecrackers in town and perhaps a year from now as the 2014 season wraps up we can revisit... The altercations I had came moreso when I was new here and nobody knew me, as such I wasn't part of the local click, you'll see in time I guess...
11-26-13, 04:31 PM
#166
out walking the earth
I think what you're seeing is a clash of generations. Old school vs New school. Those who learned to race in the 70s, 80s, and 90s bring a lot of those (what you would consider) "bad behaviors" with them, and guys who came up recently see it all as aggressive, mean, and unnecessary.
For example, a guy that we race against here in Michigan is unafraid to hook you into the curb in order to block you from chasing his teammate. Guys who've been riding a while accept it as just another tactic. But new guys who weren't around in the 80s and 90s get all bent out of shape and want him DQ'd. They even yell! <gasp!>
For example, a guy that we race against here in Michigan is unafraid to hook you into the curb in order to block you from chasing his teammate. Guys who've been riding a while accept it as just another tactic. But new guys who weren't around in the 80s and 90s get all bent out of shape and want him DQ'd. They even yell! <gasp!>
And again...
I don't need to point out much just pointing out my experiences that's it...
I have only ever once started something, why? Because while fighting for a wheel a local guy put me into a curb at speed by deliberately chopping my front wheel. Perhaps I need to take more time and go into detail about the things I write but most here know what I'm saying.
You'll get to know some of the firecrackers in town and perhaps a year from now as the 2014 season wraps up we can revisit... The altercations I had came moreso when I was new here and nobody knew me, as such I wasn't part of the local click, you'll see in time I guess...
I don't need to point out much just pointing out my experiences that's it...
I have only ever once started something, why? Because while fighting for a wheel a local guy put me into a curb at speed by deliberately chopping my front wheel. Perhaps I need to take more time and go into detail about the things I write but most here know what I'm saying.
You'll get to know some of the firecrackers in town and perhaps a year from now as the 2014 season wraps up we can revisit... The altercations I had came moreso when I was new here and nobody knew me, as such I wasn't part of the local click, you'll see in time I guess...
You need to learn not to get so bent out of shape.
I read a whole lot of bravado in this thread. I don't really understand it, and it's not my experience of racing that it's useful. Contact does indeed happen. I've struck a pedal had the bike go sideways and ridden out of it. I've also shattered my elbow because the guy in front of me couldn't do that. I've tangled bars with a guy who had at least 10 years more experience racing than I did, just as a last lap break was forming, we rode out of it and I went on to win. I've also done the same thing with two to go and had the guy **** out and take us both down. Skills help.
One thing I know with certainty is that if I get hung up on bumping and grinding for a wheel I've already lost the race. Just watch your breathing and HR spike. Winning sprints is about positioning, yes. But it's also about energy conservation and focus.
11-26-13, 04:32 PM
#167
out walking the earth
11-26-13, 04:38 PM
#169
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And again...
I don't need to point out much just pointing out my experiences that's it...
I have only ever once started something, why? Because while fighting for a wheel a local guy put me into a curb at speed by deliberately chopping my front wheel. Perhaps I need to take more time and go into detail about the things I write but most here know what I'm saying.
You'll get to know some of the firecrackers in town and perhaps a year from now as the 2014 season wraps up we can revisit... The altercations I had came moreso when I was new here and nobody knew me, as such I wasn't part of the local click, you'll see in time I guess...
I don't need to point out much just pointing out my experiences that's it...
I have only ever once started something, why? Because while fighting for a wheel a local guy put me into a curb at speed by deliberately chopping my front wheel. Perhaps I need to take more time and go into detail about the things I write but most here know what I'm saying.
You'll get to know some of the firecrackers in town and perhaps a year from now as the 2014 season wraps up we can revisit... The altercations I had came moreso when I was new here and nobody knew me, as such I wasn't part of the local click, you'll see in time I guess...
Right. We have different experiences. Good to share both.
Sorry, you said you had many confrontations post-race. That's what I was going off of. Not whether or not you're initiating the confrontation. Anyway, doesn't matter.
Not quite sure if you're referring to a literal town or an online community-type town here... Kinda jumping back and forth in the last few posts.
11-26-13, 04:40 PM
#170
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I think what you're seeing is a clash of generations. Old school vs New school.
You need to learn not to get so bent out of shape.
I read a whole lot of bravado in this thread. I don't really understand it, and it's not my experience of racing that it's useful. Contact does indeed happen. I've struck a pedal had the bike go sideways and ridden out of it. I've also shattered my elbow because the guy in front of me couldn't do that. I've tangled bars with a guy who had at least 10 years more experience racing than I did, just as a last lap break was forming, we rode out of it and I went on to win. I've also done the same thing with two to go and had the guy **** out and take us both down. Skills help.
One thing I know with certainty is that if I get hung up on bumping and grinding for a wheel I've already lost the race. Just watch your breathing and HR spike. Winning sprints is about positioning, yes. But it's also about energy conservation and focus.
You need to learn not to get so bent out of shape.
I read a whole lot of bravado in this thread. I don't really understand it, and it's not my experience of racing that it's useful. Contact does indeed happen. I've struck a pedal had the bike go sideways and ridden out of it. I've also shattered my elbow because the guy in front of me couldn't do that. I've tangled bars with a guy who had at least 10 years more experience racing than I did, just as a last lap break was forming, we rode out of it and I went on to win. I've also done the same thing with two to go and had the guy **** out and take us both down. Skills help.
One thing I know with certainty is that if I get hung up on bumping and grinding for a wheel I've already lost the race. Just watch your breathing and HR spike. Winning sprints is about positioning, yes. But it's also about energy conservation and focus.
I'll be a good boy now...
Sorry new guys, wasn't trying to be a jerk...
11-26-13, 04:41 PM
#172
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Right. We have different experiences. Good to share both.
Sorry, you said you had many confrontations post-race. That's what I was going off of. Not whether or not you're initiating the confrontation. Anyway, doesn't matter.
Not quite sure if you're referring to a literal town or an online community-type town here... Kinda jumping back and forth in the last few posts.
Sorry, you said you had many confrontations post-race. That's what I was going off of. Not whether or not you're initiating the confrontation. Anyway, doesn't matter.
Not quite sure if you're referring to a literal town or an online community-type town here... Kinda jumping back and forth in the last few posts.
And my conversations are like my race line, all over the place
11-26-13, 04:43 PM
#173
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Excellent thread. Especially the hijack.
Bike racing is like basketball: it is non-contact sport with lots of contact. Ejections and DQ's are called when the contact is way over the line and malicious, especially with intent to injure. On the other hand hand checking in basketball is like bumping some one off a wheel. A little is tolerated by the officials and is expected by the participants. A lot and done harshly is not.
Bike racing is like basketball: it is non-contact sport with lots of contact. Ejections and DQ's are called when the contact is way over the line and malicious, especially with intent to injure. On the other hand hand checking in basketball is like bumping some one off a wheel. A little is tolerated by the officials and is expected by the participants. A lot and done harshly is not.
11-26-13, 04:44 PM
#174
out walking the earth
Read both quotes. I'm being snarky, but still as I said I genuinely don't understand crashing someone as being a tactic. In the case you posted, based on the fact that you started a fight with the guy, you don't seem to either.
11-26-13, 04:49 PM
#175
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