How Do You Improve Women's Racing?
#76
The Slow One
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Anchorage, AK
Posts: 258
Bikes: Hate me.
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Again, I'll have to ask some of the women racers I know what's different about the Posies that seems to increase participation so dramatically- especially among the less experienced classes. I don't want to ruin the good thing they have going, but rather make the regular season more welcoming to them (if possible).
#77
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Somewhere in TX
Posts: 2,266
Bikes: BH, Cervelo, Cube, Canyon
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 212 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 6 Times
in
6 Posts
So, yes, it can be a social reason. The bandwagon effect.
#78
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Boulder, CO
Posts: 8,546
Mentioned: 83 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 163 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 2 Times
in
2 Posts
That's not what I meant by social... I meant women are socialized not to be competitive. A competitive woman is often called a *****, we are supposed to be nice all the time and just say yes, and give in to what the other person (guy, usually) wants, and not fight for what we want.
Eff that, but the way.
Eff that, but the way.
I have three younger sisters. When I was racing juniors in high school, and the family was coming out to racing events, they got into bike riding and wanted to race as well. Dad bought them each a nice road and mountain bike. When I left for college, they did not go to another race, whereas I raced for years afterward and still ride. None of them rode their bikes or expressed interest in cycling once it wasn't social to do so, whereas I continued to ride bikes because I just like riding my bike.
So, yes, it can be a social reason. The bandwagon effect.
So, yes, it can be a social reason. The bandwagon effect.
#79
starting pistol means war
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Orlando, FL
Posts: 3,150
Bikes: Cervelo R3
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
As a former board member on the local association for USAC, I can tell you what does NOT work for attracting more women:
1) upping prize money
2) increased distances
3) un-combining categories
4) stipends, sponsorships, financial incentives
5) advertising
The only way you'll ever find women that want to "race" bikes and not just "ride" a bike (tri's, centuries, fondos), is for women to help women. And that aint happening on a grand scale.
Boys find other boys who want to destroy each other and join the cause.
Women tend to bi*ch about each other and destroy hope (yes, a general statement, but fairly accurate).
USAC says 11% of licensees are female.
Yet we most often have only 4-9% of the entrants as ladies on any given weekend.
We've tried everything.
And lastly, the problem that needs fixing is not necessarily a problem. Maybe it's just what it is.
1) upping prize money
2) increased distances
3) un-combining categories
4) stipends, sponsorships, financial incentives
5) advertising
The only way you'll ever find women that want to "race" bikes and not just "ride" a bike (tri's, centuries, fondos), is for women to help women. And that aint happening on a grand scale.
Boys find other boys who want to destroy each other and join the cause.
Women tend to bi*ch about each other and destroy hope (yes, a general statement, but fairly accurate).
USAC says 11% of licensees are female.
Yet we most often have only 4-9% of the entrants as ladies on any given weekend.
We've tried everything.
And lastly, the problem that needs fixing is not necessarily a problem. Maybe it's just what it is.
#80
fuggitivo solitario
As a former board member on the local association for USAC, I can tell you what does NOT work for attracting more women:
1) upping prize money
2) increased distances
3) un-combining categories
4) stipends, sponsorships, financial incentives
5) advertising
The only way you'll ever find women that want to "race" bikes and not just "ride" a bike (tri's, centuries, fondos), is for women to help women. And that aint happening on a grand scale.
Boys find other boys who want to destroy each other and join the cause.
Women tend to bi*ch about each other and destroy hope (yes, a general statement, but fairly accurate).
USAC says 11% of licensees are female.
Yet we most often have only 4-9% of the entrants as ladies on any given weekend.
We've tried everything.
And lastly, the problem that needs fixing is not necessarily a problem. Maybe it's just what it is.
1) upping prize money
2) increased distances
3) un-combining categories
4) stipends, sponsorships, financial incentives
5) advertising
The only way you'll ever find women that want to "race" bikes and not just "ride" a bike (tri's, centuries, fondos), is for women to help women. And that aint happening on a grand scale.
Boys find other boys who want to destroy each other and join the cause.
Women tend to bi*ch about each other and destroy hope (yes, a general statement, but fairly accurate).
USAC says 11% of licensees are female.
Yet we most often have only 4-9% of the entrants as ladies on any given weekend.
We've tried everything.
And lastly, the problem that needs fixing is not necessarily a problem. Maybe it's just what it is.
i wish i could say that what you said about b****ing about each other weren't true, but from what i have witnessed around me this year, well, let's just say it hits a bit close to home
#81
out walking the earth
That women and men generally want some different things and are wired in different ways is a good thing. In most cases men can learn from women, and the paradigm that women need to be more competitive and race more and harder might just be ass backwards.
#82
starting pistol means war
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Orlando, FL
Posts: 3,150
Bikes: Cervelo R3
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
As an addendum to my above post:
-- my wife raced cat4 for a year, thought it was fantastic, but said women supported each other about as much as a cat befriending water
Whereas clubs of boys keep others involved, so their wins look better with a peloton of pack-filler in the background.
-- my wife raced cat4 for a year, thought it was fantastic, but said women supported each other about as much as a cat befriending water
Whereas clubs of boys keep others involved, so their wins look better with a peloton of pack-filler in the background.
#83
Senior Member
The only way you'll ever find women that want to "race" bikes and not just "ride" a bike (tri's, centuries, fondos), is for women to help women. And that aint happening on a grand scale.
Boys find other boys who want to destroy each other and join the cause.
Women tend to bi*ch about each other and destroy hope (yes, a general statement, but fairly accurate).
Boys find other boys who want to destroy each other and join the cause.
Women tend to bi*ch about each other and destroy hope (yes, a general statement, but fairly accurate).
I think there really is a large generational element to the issue, and it will steadily get better. In the meantime, I stand by what I said before - to the extent economically possible, promoters need to serve women racers better because it's the right thing to do, period. Even if it's true that "it is what it is," (though I don't believe that at all). shovelhd also hit a nail right on the head with the problem of having too many categories, with the women tending to get squeezed into one or two races due to low participation. And that feeds a vicious cycle, because racing beginners with experts really sucks. And bike racing suffers much more from this problem than, say, distance running.
And it's generally worth remembering that women make up a proportion of recreational cyclists that is much closer to being representative of the general population. There's a participation base out there that's available to be captured. We shouldn't just accept that the competitive nature of bike racing makes it unpalatable women. There are LOTS of other competitive sports (with winners and losers) with much better participation by women. I don't think citing exceptionalism is acceptable.
#84
out walking the earth
I don't get it. Why are competitive athletics necessary for all people and both genders? My wife is in better shape than the vast majority of over weight hyper competitive middle age cyclists I know. She also doesn't have a competitive bone in her body.
Wanting to capture a participation base is marketing. It's about increasing share, and revenues. It has nothing at all to do with what women want or need.
Wanting to capture a participation base is marketing. It's about increasing share, and revenues. It has nothing at all to do with what women want or need.
#86
Powered by Borscht
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: SoCal
Posts: 8,342
Bikes: Russian Vodka
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
This is the womens field from my race on Sunday, they had more racers than my cat 4 race...
#87
starting pistol means war
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Orlando, FL
Posts: 3,150
Bikes: Cervelo R3
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
#88
starting pistol means war
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Orlando, FL
Posts: 3,150
Bikes: Cervelo R3
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
[QUOTE=grolby;16609602I stand by what I said before - to the extent economically possible, promoters need to serve women racers better because it's the right thing to do, period. .[/QUOTE]
grolby, give me one idea that we haven't already tried as promoters and I'll be happy to give it a shot.
We have "served" the ladies in every way possible and have had to say, screw it. Treat them no different than any other small category and let it be what it is.
grolby, give me one idea that we haven't already tried as promoters and I'll be happy to give it a shot.
We have "served" the ladies in every way possible and have had to say, screw it. Treat them no different than any other small category and let it be what it is.
#89
ride lots be safe
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Texas
Posts: 5,224
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 13 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time
in
1 Post
Just a mild +1 on the "social" aspect... we have a very large crop of newbie W4's this year, almost all of whom are part of a handful of new-ish clubs that are women-focused, are recruiting effectively using women to recruit women from tri's and runners... to me this is a big change from the past / usual "wives daughters girlfriends" demographic that brought newbie ladies to races.
Time will tell how many get the bug and stick with it, but washout rate is high among men also.
Time will tell how many get the bug and stick with it, but washout rate is high among men also.
#90
Senior Member
I think that you are going to have more women who aren't interested in competition than you will have men. I don't believe for a second that it's for biological reasons, and I don't think it's particularly relevant either way - there are still lots of women out there who COULD become interested in racing, but never try. There's a market to be reached - by the way, marketing to 50% of the population is a pretty good reason to want to improve the situation.
As for suggestions, well, if it were an easy problem, it would be solved, wouldn't it? Just because it's hard doesn't mean that the right thing to do is just decide women don't want to race bikes, throw our hands up in the air and give up. It's a hard slog. Rowing had the benefit of Title IX. We don't have that. But we do have real generational changes that are happening. I think the best things going right now are the various high school racing leagues and junior development that is focused as much on girls as boys. And not just in cycling, either, but across all kinds of sports. As girls and women get taken more seriously as athletes, they will keep responding to that, and over time there will be a larger base of women who are interested in competing. In the meantime, I'll say one more time, we need to keep offering everything we can afford to, because it's the right thing to do.
#91
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Redwood City, CA
Posts: 10,978
Bikes: aggressive agreement is what I ride.
Mentioned: 109 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 967 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 4 Times
in
4 Posts
What % of leisure riders are men/women? Commuters?
**** racing. We need more people riding bikes everywhere.
**** racing. We need more people riding bikes everywhere.
#92
Powered by Borscht
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: SoCal
Posts: 8,342
Bikes: Russian Vodka
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
#93
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 956
Bikes: Giant TCR, Giant Anthem, Felt CX
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 65 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
I don't get it. Why are competitive athletics necessary for all people and both genders? My wife is in better shape than the vast majority of over weight hyper competitive middle age cyclists I know. She also doesn't have a competitive bone in her body.
Wanting to capture a participation base is marketing. It's about increasing share, and revenues. It has nothing at all to do with what women want or need.
Wanting to capture a participation base is marketing. It's about increasing share, and revenues. It has nothing at all to do with what women want or need.
I think most of us were just replying to the thread title: how to improve women's racing?. There are some of us women who would like to see a better racing scene in our area.
#94
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Redwood City, CA
Posts: 10,978
Bikes: aggressive agreement is what I ride.
Mentioned: 109 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 967 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 4 Times
in
4 Posts
I guess what I'm getting at is to improve Women's Racing, you need to improve Women's Cycling, and to do that you need more cyclists and less of a "cycling is dangerous" atmosphere in the country in general.
Bike commuting is viewed as "risky" (and ****, after doing it now for two year I kind of agree) so more men partake than women. Racers are the tip of the hobby iceberg. We don't only like, make our own coffee tables, we submit them for woodworking competitions. If you want more racers, you need to make an environment favorable for more hobbyists. 1% of 1000 is way more than 1% of 100.
Bike commuting is viewed as "risky" (and ****, after doing it now for two year I kind of agree) so more men partake than women. Racers are the tip of the hobby iceberg. We don't only like, make our own coffee tables, we submit them for woodworking competitions. If you want more racers, you need to make an environment favorable for more hobbyists. 1% of 1000 is way more than 1% of 100.
#95
Making a kilometer blurry
I guess what I'm getting at is to improve Women's Racing, you need to improve Women's Cycling, and to do that you need more cyclists and less of a "cycling is dangerous" atmosphere in the country in general.
Bike commuting is viewed as "risky" (and ****, after doing it now for two year I kind of agree) so more men partake than women. Racers are the tip of the hobby iceberg. We don't only like, make our own coffee tables, we submit them for woodworking competitions. If you want more racers, you need to make an environment favorable for more hobbyists. 1% of 1000 is way more than 1% of 100.
Bike commuting is viewed as "risky" (and ****, after doing it now for two year I kind of agree) so more men partake than women. Racers are the tip of the hobby iceberg. We don't only like, make our own coffee tables, we submit them for woodworking competitions. If you want more racers, you need to make an environment favorable for more hobbyists. 1% of 1000 is way more than 1% of 100.
Q: Is bicycle racing dangerous?
A: Yes.
#96
Old & Getting Older Racer
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: SoCal
Posts: 5,343
Bikes: Bicycle Transportation: 2022 Hyundai Kona Electric, 2019 Kia Niro Plug-In Hybrid
Mentioned: 62 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 41 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 8 Times
in
5 Posts
Without turning this into an advocacy thread, +1.
__________________
Thanks.
Cleave
"Real men still wear pink."
Visit my blog at https://cleavesblant.wordpress.com/
Lightning Velo Cycling Club: https://www.lightningvelo.org/
Learn about our Green Dream Home at https://www.lawville.org/
Thanks.
Cleave
"Real men still wear pink."
Visit my blog at https://cleavesblant.wordpress.com/
Lightning Velo Cycling Club: https://www.lightningvelo.org/
Learn about our Green Dream Home at https://www.lawville.org/
#98
out walking the earth
I think there are more than enough outlets for people who want to be athletic but not compete. That's great for your wife!
I think most of us were just replying to the thread title: how to improve women's racing?. There are some of us women who would like to see a better racing scene in our area.
I think most of us were just replying to the thread title: how to improve women's racing?. There are some of us women who would like to see a better racing scene in our area.
It's not about what's necessary. Why are competitive athletics necessary for people of all races? Of all heights? If there's unequal participation by people of different ethnicities, do we shrug it off as them just being uninterested? In the history of sports, unequal representation hasn't come from innate differences, it's come from social factors, both deliberate and implicit. If there is unequal participation, there's a reason for it. "Men and women are just different," doesn't cut it. We're all human. We're not wired up that differently. The counterexamples are too numerous to list, but rowing, soccer, lacrosse are just a small handful of sports I can name where participation by both genders is much closer to representative of the actual population ratio. Is racing a boat less competitive than bike racing? (Spoiler: no).
I think that you are going to have more women who aren't interested in competition than you will have men. I don't believe for a second that it's for biological reasons, and I don't think it's particularly relevant either way - there are still lots of women out there who COULD become interested in racing, but never try. There's a market to be reached - by the way, marketing to 50% of the population is a pretty good reason to want to improve the situation.
As for suggestions, well, if it were an easy problem, it would be solved, wouldn't it? Just because it's hard doesn't mean that the right thing to do is just decide women don't want to race bikes, throw our hands up in the air and give up. It's a hard slog. Rowing had the benefit of Title IX. We don't have that. But we do have real generational changes that are happening. I think the best things going right now are the various high school racing leagues and junior development that is focused as much on girls as boys. And not just in cycling, either, but across all kinds of sports. As girls and women get taken more seriously as athletes, they will keep responding to that, and over time there will be a larger base of women who are interested in competing. In the meantime, I'll say one more time, we need to keep offering everything we can afford to, because it's the right thing to do.
I think that you are going to have more women who aren't interested in competition than you will have men. I don't believe for a second that it's for biological reasons, and I don't think it's particularly relevant either way - there are still lots of women out there who COULD become interested in racing, but never try. There's a market to be reached - by the way, marketing to 50% of the population is a pretty good reason to want to improve the situation.
As for suggestions, well, if it were an easy problem, it would be solved, wouldn't it? Just because it's hard doesn't mean that the right thing to do is just decide women don't want to race bikes, throw our hands up in the air and give up. It's a hard slog. Rowing had the benefit of Title IX. We don't have that. But we do have real generational changes that are happening. I think the best things going right now are the various high school racing leagues and junior development that is focused as much on girls as boys. And not just in cycling, either, but across all kinds of sports. As girls and women get taken more seriously as athletes, they will keep responding to that, and over time there will be a larger base of women who are interested in competing. In the meantime, I'll say one more time, we need to keep offering everything we can afford to, because it's the right thing to do.
Other sports have a higher % of women? OK. It's still less than their male counterparts in most cases. They're also generally sports where serious injury is less likely.
The ultimate driver here is money. Women are a lesser tapped resource and should promoters fill fields they make more money. To get there promoters, who have a hard enough time making ends meet, need to toss money at fields where the target audience in many areas simply doesn't exist. In that case it's up to that demographic to make things happen.
#99
RacingBear
Well, to be clear, quoting the Driveway Series' new racer page:
Q: Is bicycle racing dangerous?
A: Yes.
Q: Is bicycle racing dangerous?
A: Yes.
Must be referring to this part:
We've found rattlesnakes under the concrete barriers, tires, in the watter barricades and in trash cans. Please excercise caustion. If you bring your children to the races, please look out for them and encourage them to excercise caution.