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Northeast Racing

Old 06-08-15, 09:20 AM
  #1601  
Hls2k6
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Originally Posted by carpediemracing View Post
Finally, although early moves may work early in the season, as everyone gets more and more fit, it's tougher and tougher to make such moves work. You really have to decide when you want to go and do absolutely everything to save energy until then. Yesterday maybe you move up once, get swarmed, and realize, oh, it's gonna take a lot of work to maintain position. Pull the rip cord, get to the back, and wait. Everyone up there is wasting their legs doing exactly what you did while you're at 120w/120bpm, yawning, wondering if I'd yell at you if you go to the hoods now. You might move up one more time to test things, then drop back. Then when you decide it's time you move up for real. It might be 3 to go, 4 to go, 2 to go.
I hate to do this, because the rest of your post is awesome, but I disagree a little with the above. The idea that fields collectively get faster and more fit in June than April is not at all my experience. Nutmeg is a big race and lots of people wanted to win that fancy state champ jersey. Same is true of big races in April (e.g., Battenkill) and September (e.g., TD Boston). Those races are faster than a random Saturday at Ninigret no matter when they are.

Any breakaway plan is flexible. Neither I nor the teammate you reference above starts the race with a fixed in stone plan. Even when you decide to save yourself for a late move, you can't just sit back until 5 to go and hope everything sooner comes back. When it looks like nothing early is working, we will often figure that out by taking shots and continue to monitor, so the move doesn't go up the road without us. On Saturday, I was off the front for 3 laps with 35ish to go. Two teammates had already separately attacked before me, and the winning break was a counter that launched 50m before I got caught, just 10 laps into the race.

Its a hard balance. At first, you tend to overdo it trying to cover every move. Then, you underdo it by trying to wait for one huge attack at a predetermined time. Then you slowly get better and better at finding that midpoint. And sometimes that also means being stubborn about a good plan. At week 3 of Brinkerhoff, we started attacking one lap in at a crosswind section perfect to get away. I won solo in week 2 and the other principal antagonist had won week 1. They were on the first few attacks like glue. The other guy said to me, "they aren't going to let anyone go this week." But it was such hard, windy conditions, I knew once the rubber band broke, it'd likely be for good. Power file shows like 8 separate attacks in 4.5 miles before that happened, but it did finally happen.
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Old 06-08-15, 09:22 AM
  #1602  
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/\ ... I have so much to learn.
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Old 06-08-15, 09:52 AM
  #1603  
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Originally Posted by Hls2k6 View Post
The idea that fields collectively get faster and more fit in June than April is not at all my experience. Nutmeg is a big race and lots of people wanted to win that fancy state champ jersey. Same is true of big races in April (e.g., Battenkill) and September (e.g., TD Boston). Those races are faster than a random Saturday at Ninigret no matter when they are.

I think it's generally true that there is greater diversity in fitness in early season races. There are guys I can always beat in March who I will never beat in July. I think it follows that, all else being equal, early breaks are more likely to stick in early season races. The breaks that stick and you shake your head thinking really? those guys? are usually in the early races. The breaks that get caught and you shake your head thinking really? even those guys couldn't make it stick? are usually in the summer races.

I agree that all else is rarely equal, and that there are no hard and fast rules, and that a high profile race is always harder than a random weekend crit, and that you can't just say well it's July so I'll do nothing until 3 to go. But I think CDR's generalization is a fine generalization.
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Old 06-08-15, 10:27 AM
  #1604  
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66/69 from Cat 5 purgatory checking in here : )

Purgatory was my first actual road race ever and darn it, my roadbike was busted and needed a new derailleur hanger. My LBS ordered the part for me priority mail but it didn't get in by Sunday. I was churning the back of the peloton on the cross bike & cross tires, but was spat out by lap 2. A bit disheartened but never giving up, finished the race at 1:59'10". With a goal of "hope to hell not to be last".

I guess I need to drop some weight and work on the power. I'm sitting at 194 at 5'10" on race day at about 20% bodyfat. Blah

Does Purgatory count as a hilly ride?

Last edited by Panza; 06-08-15 at 10:37 AM.
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Old 06-08-15, 10:38 AM
  #1605  
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Originally Posted by Panza View Post
66/69 from Cat 5 purgatory checking in here : )

Purgatory was my first actual road race ever and darn it, my roadbike was busted and needed a new derailleur hanger. My LBS ordered the part for me priority mail but it didn't get in by Sunday. I was churning the back of the peloton on the cross bike & cross tires, but was spat out by lap 2. A bit disheartened but never giving up, finished the race at 1:59'10". With a goal of "hope to hell not to be last".

I guess I need to drop some weight and work on the power. I'm sitting at 194 at 5'10" on race day at about 20% bodyfat. Blah
You can count the 3 who DNF in the tally, so you finished 66/72. Congrats on getting out there! We may have bumped into each other along the way!
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Old 06-08-15, 10:59 AM
  #1606  
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Originally Posted by hubcyclist View Post
You can count the 3 who DNF in the tally, so you finished 66/72. Congrats on getting out there! We may have bumped into each other along the way!
Amen, just getting out there was a real interesting experience. The "18mph" lead out to the course was something I had never experienced in CX. The pelotons aren't as big either. Just an overall nice experience, totally two different things.
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Old 06-08-15, 11:19 AM
  #1607  
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So that was you. I checked you at the start but since I was in the lead vehicle setting pace I never saw you again. Neutral starts are fairly common around here. Purgatory, Johnnycake, Quabbin to name three.
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Old 06-08-15, 12:50 PM
  #1608  
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Originally Posted by shovelhd View Post
So that was you. I checked you at the start but since I was in the lead vehicle setting pace I never saw you again. Neutral starts are fairly common around here. Purgatory, Johnnycake, Quabbin to name three.
Good to know I'm a memorable person. ; ) I'm gonna have to try some more, any notable upcoming races?
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Old 06-08-15, 01:09 PM
  #1609  
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Originally Posted by Panza View Post
Good to know I'm a memorable person. ; ) I'm gonna have to try some more, any notable upcoming races?
Road race season is mostly winding down. July has Hilltowns. August has Tokeneke. There are tons of crits coming up, though.
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Old 06-08-15, 01:40 PM
  #1610  
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Originally Posted by grolby View Post
Road race season is mostly winding down. July has Hilltowns. August has Tokeneke. There are tons of crits coming up, though.
Capital region?
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Old 06-08-15, 01:48 PM
  #1611  
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Originally Posted by Hls2k6 View Post
I hate to do this, because the rest of your post is awesome, but I disagree a little with the above. The idea that fields collectively get faster and more fit in June than April is not at all my experience. Nutmeg is a big race and lots of people wanted to win that fancy state champ jersey. Same is true of big races in April (e.g., Battenkill) and September (e.g., TD Boston). Those races are faster than a random Saturday at Ninigret no matter when they are.

Any breakaway plan is flexible. Neither I nor the teammate you reference above starts the race with a fixed in stone plan. Even when you decide to save yourself for a late move, you can't just sit back until 5 to go and hope everything sooner comes back. When it looks like nothing early is working, we will often figure that out by taking shots and continue to monitor, so the move doesn't go up the road without us. On Saturday, I was off the front for 3 laps with 35ish to go. Two teammates had already separately attacked before me, and the winning break was a counter that launched 50m before I got caught, just 10 laps into the race.

Its a hard balance. At first, you tend to overdo it trying to cover every move. Then, you underdo it by trying to wait for one huge attack at a predetermined time. Then you slowly get better and better at finding that midpoint. And sometimes that also means being stubborn about a good plan. At week 3 of Brinkerhoff, we started attacking one lap in at a crosswind section perfect to get away. I won solo in week 2 and the other principal antagonist had won week 1. They were on the first few attacks like glue. The other guy said to me, "they aren't going to let anyone go this week." But it was such hard, windy conditions, I knew once the rubber band broke, it'd likely be for good. Power file shows like 8 separate attacks in 4.5 miles before that happened, but it did finally happen.
Originally Posted by island rider View Post
/\ ... I have so much to learn.
Originally Posted by globecanvas View Post
I think it's generally true that there is greater diversity in fitness in early season races. There are guys I can always beat in March who I will never beat in July. I think it follows that, all else being equal, early breaks are more likely to stick in early season races. The breaks that stick and you shake your head thinking really? those guys? are usually in the early races. The breaks that get caught and you shake your head thinking really? even those guys couldn't make it stick? are usually in the summer races.

I agree that all else is rarely equal, and that there are no hard and fast rules, and that a high profile race is always harder than a random weekend crit, and that you can't just say well it's July so I'll do nothing until 3 to go. But I think CDR's generalization is a fine generalization.


My biggest realization is that I tailored my response to island rider for his races, his category, his power, his style, because I actually know him. He's the only new rider I rode with this year on a training ride (the other guy I rode with on a different day is a long time friend and former teammate). I sort of know his general riding power parameters so that's what I was basing things on.

Also @Hls2k6 you never have to apologize for disagreeing with me. It's kind of funny, I know all three of the quoted people above but it's sort of a one-step-removed discussion that's in a public arena. So, yeah, disagree with me because my point of view is pretty limited due to it reflecting my own approach to racing.

I think I'm about the odds. I chose to go left at Limerock because the right looked tight. The guys making the right look tight got 1st, 2nd, and 4th, so they didn't clog the chute, they blew it wide open. If I'd gone right maybe I'd have done better, but going left guaranteed me an open path to the line. I ended up 3rd, not sprinting long at all, and going visibly faster than 2 of the 3 guys on the right. Last Saturday the break was pretty close and I felt confident we'd catch them in the sprint. I suppose I could have asked a teammate to take a monster pull or something but I didn't, and I lost the race by a relatively small margin, maybe 5-10 meters or so when I sat up because I wasn't going to close and pass them before the line.

On the topic of odds I almost never go with the early move, and in fact I basically never do. But that's why I won in April, because the early move had all sorts of the right circumstances surrounding it. I went only because I was in the one spot where I couldn't not go, meaning on the guy's wheel as he made his move. If I was anywhere else I'd have watched him ride away, but because I was literally on his wheel I went with him.
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Old 06-08-15, 02:13 PM
  #1612  
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Originally Posted by carpediemracing View Post
He's the only new rider I rode with this year on a training ride (the other guy I rode with on a different day is a long time friend and former teammate).
I was hoping you would forget about that meandering mess of a day. I still owe you a nice ride.

The things you said were echoed by others I trust. The basic issue for me that day was that I was wasting too much fighting wind to not really get anything for my efforts (AP/NP 227/242 and 235/250 for each race respectively). Rather than move up and attack, I was just moving up to slot back into a decent spot. My racing that day was more about holding a position in the field than what I was going to do with it when I was there. I would have benefited from getting to that 10th place (or higher) spot and then when the pack slowed, gunning it to see if I could create separation and get a group together. The one time I decided to try something I went to the front with 2 or 3 to go. There was a guy with 20 seconds out front and a guy with 10 or so behind him. I tried to get clear and chase to the leader, I reeled in the first guy but glanced back at one point and realized that I was pulling everyone around. Then I decided to drop back and see if I could position for the sprint. At that point I might have been better off draining the tank. But in reality I should have been trying things like that all along.

-Feel free to correct, comment or adjust my thinking.

I think I'm going to start doing more 3/4 and masters stuff so I can get better feedback and match up the various race reports here with the reality I experience. It would be a good learning tool.
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Old 06-08-15, 02:39 PM
  #1613  
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Originally Posted by island rider View Post
The basic issue for me that day was that I was wasting too much fighting wind to not really get anything for my efforts (AP/NP 227/242 and 235/250 for each race respectively). Rather than move up and attack, I was just moving up to slot back into a decent spot. My racing that day was more about holding a position in the field than what I was going to do with it when I was there. <snip>

I think I'm going to start doing more 3/4 and masters stuff so I can get better feedback and match up the various race reports here with the reality I experience. It would be a good learning tool.
That's a good way of summarizing it, that you spent your energy to gain position, not to actually "race".

I would guess that the racers in the 3 race that same day typically averaged more than 175w (NP 199w, which seems realistic), which is what I averaged, and I had a pretty poor sprint for me, well under 1000w peak.

I know you're stronger than me, I know you understand how to read wind, I remember you were good about even minor crosswinds. Either that or you just sat to one side because I was riding so erratically lol. So you can shelter, you can sit, but it seems you forget to do it in the race, or you sacrifice shelter for position, etc.

I wish I had cam footage of the race Saturday because I could pin point when I was on the left side on the backstretch. In the very short (100m?) of straight back there my legs were totally blitzed. The wind was crazy, at least compared to the soft-pedaling right side. Likewise on the main straight I also wanted to be slightly left. I watched as teammates of mine just wasted their legs sitting in the wind, lap after lap after lap. It's not like they don't know, it's that they (seemed) to choose to be on the windward side to hold position. In hindsight it's obvious that didn't work because they didn't do well, but the reason I tried the left is I thought "well if he's doing it it can't be that bad" and then bam, I was going full gas just to stay near the guy in front of me. Anyway the point is that I don't have power data to back up my "wind killed me" claim because I have no idea what the power pattern disturbances were for, but it was for me the hardest part of the race mentally other than the sprint.
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Old 06-08-15, 02:50 PM
  #1614  
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Originally Posted by carpediemracing View Post
... sacrifice shelter for position, etc.
This. I know I do it. It's usually when I feel pinched on the leeward side and figure I'll burn a bit just to feel safer.
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Old 06-10-15, 08:13 AM
  #1615  
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Greene Summer Classic, anyone? It looks like half of Quebec is showing up for it.
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Old 06-10-15, 08:17 AM
  #1616  
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Originally Posted by TheKillerPenguin View Post
Greene Summer Classic, anyone? It looks like half of Quebec is showing up for it.

This race has been run 7 times over the past 3 years, with at least 3 different names, and this will be the first edition I've missed. I can ride to the start line from home. But I'll be out of town.
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Old 06-10-15, 08:26 AM
  #1617  
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Originally Posted by TheKillerPenguin View Post
Greene Summer Classic, anyone? It looks like half of Quebec is showing up for it.
your "it's going to be flat and fast" description pretty much talked me out of it.
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Old 06-10-15, 08:31 AM
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There is a 1mi hill each 20 mile lap, and flat really translates to false flat downhill and uphill for the rest of it. It is going to be fast, I'm sure of that.
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Old 06-10-15, 08:34 AM
  #1619  
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It's a fun course, the hill is a real hill (it is in the middle of the Catskills after all), but it's far from a pure climber's race. It will be fast.
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Old 06-10-15, 08:49 AM
  #1620  
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Originally Posted by island rider View Post
Capital region?
Forgot about that. Is a possibility. Looks like a lot of hills.

Edit: actually, no. Got Important Team Event that day. Less driving for me, though!

Last edited by grolby; 06-10-15 at 09:28 AM.
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Old 06-10-15, 09:25 AM
  #1621  
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Originally Posted by globecanvas View Post
This race has been run 7 times over the past 3 years, with at least 3 different names, and this will be the first edition I've missed. I can ride to the start line from home. But I'll be out of town.
I was really looking forward to it this year, but decided to try my luck at White Plains instead. It will be fast, the route is different from previous iterations, but the same as last year I believe (I didn't race last year). There is nothing I'd call flat in the race. One real climb and a bunch of rollers.

I've been trying to piece together where you actually live based on your posts over the past year(s), without actually putting any effort into it. You live up there? We should go for a ride sometime. I get up there a bunch during the summer. We have a place in Hensonville.

Last edited by island rider; 06-10-15 at 09:29 AM.
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Old 06-10-15, 09:31 AM
  #1622  
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Hensonville! I grew up in Windham, just around the corner.
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Old 06-10-15, 09:40 AM
  #1623  
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Originally Posted by TheKillerPenguin View Post
Hensonville! I grew up in Windham, just around the corner.
My wife spent her summers and winters in and around Windham. She was a ski instructor and her brother raced, and they did camps there over the summer at the High Ridge Club. I would bet you guys could pay "do you know joe" for a while.
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Old 06-10-15, 10:52 AM
  #1624  
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Originally Posted by island rider View Post
I've been trying to piece together where you actually live based on your posts over the past year(s), without actually putting any effort into it. You live up there? We should go for a ride sometime. I get up there a bunch during the summer. We have a place in Hensonville.

I live halfway between Kingston and New Paltz. If you know the Gunks at all, our house is literally on the northern terminus of the ridge. If you went to the usual rock climbing crag outside of NP and just followed the cliff north for about 5 miles you'd end up here.

Probably about 30 miles from Windham as the crow flies. In fact if you drew a line from the dumpster behind a hipster coffee shop where TKP lives, to your vacation house, I'd probably be right about at the midpoint. Drop me a line next time you're in the neighborhood with your bike and we can have a wolfpack.
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Old 06-10-15, 11:04 AM
  #1625  
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Originally Posted by globecanvas View Post
I live halfway between Kingston and New Paltz. If you know the Gunks at all, our house is literally on the northern terminus of the ridge. If you went to the usual rock climbing crag outside of NP and just followed the cliff north for about 5 miles you'd end up here.

Probably about 30 miles from Windham as the crow flies. In fact if you drew a line from the dumpster behind a hipster coffee shop where TKP lives, to your vacation house, I'd probably be right about at the midpoint. Drop me a line next time you're in the neighborhood with your bike and we can have a wolfpack.


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