If cycling is a team sport, why do we award single medals?
#26
Making a kilometer blurry
I guess that my point is that since I've never been in the hunt for serious cash, jerseys, or medals, I find glory in how well the team does. I have a nice collection of trophies and some won Oakleys that I still wear, but I get a lot of joy out of sending teammates to the top step.
#28
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Redlands, CA
Posts: 6,313
Mentioned: 31 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 842 Post(s)
Liked 469 Times
in
250 Posts
In this years Boston Marathon, the Americans worked together to get Meb the win, and they didn't get anything. The tactics were different, but all the same a selfless act. American Strong: The Untold Story of American Teamwork and How Ryan Hall Helped Meb Keflezighi Win Boston | LetsRun.com
IMO, the dynamics of bicycle racing is complicated and they really do not have a great way of representing it in the results. Its a team sport, but scored as an individual event; sometimes the team element gets the rider the win, sometimes the team does nothing. Like someone earlier said, the reward is a paycheck, and hopefully a bonus from the team.
IMO, the dynamics of bicycle racing is complicated and they really do not have a great way of representing it in the results. Its a team sport, but scored as an individual event; sometimes the team element gets the rider the win, sometimes the team does nothing. Like someone earlier said, the reward is a paycheck, and hopefully a bonus from the team.
#29
Announcer
Thread Starter
Not sure why you guys are so adamant about a team-aspect when cycling is about individual glory and always has been. Most of the people on a team have little chance of winning.
At the pro level, their reward is a paycheck and hopefully another year of getting paychecks.
Should office workers get the glory and recognition of the CEO? That's not how the real world works.
At the pro level, their reward is a paycheck and hopefully another year of getting paychecks.
Should office workers get the glory and recognition of the CEO? That's not how the real world works.
I'm not against this, mind you, but it's hard to track. Sometimes my wins come due to, or with teammates. And sometimes I'm alone, or the race is of such a level where I may have teammates but they're not really in the same race I'm in. State crit last week for instance. I saw my guys in the parking lot before and after. Many teams are huge, and folks may span categories, genders, states and regions. Where's the line?
As I was introducing the riders at the start of the Folsom time trial at the Amgen Tour, I'd come across the domestiques who had NO results to speak of. Riders like Cannondale's Fabio Sabatini. He has ridden all of the Major Grand Tours. His top placing was 46th in the 2008 TdF. He was the Lantern Rouge at the 2011 Tour de France.
How do you make that sound good to a general audience?
Last edited by EventServices; 05-29-14 at 08:55 AM. Reason: Spelling. Where's my copy editor???
#30
Resident Alien
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Location, location.
Posts: 13,089
Mentioned: 158 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 349 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 10 Times
in
6 Posts
And calling something asinine drivel isn't exactly overwhelming us with a cogent rebuttal. You are glue and I am rubber; consider taking your own advice. Defending your analogy does not consist of trotting out your Thesaurus to call something names.
The "team" competitions you reference are rewarded not for collective effort towards a goal, but rather for an aggregate of individuals based on time. It's like rewarding a basketball team for the best field goal percentage even if they get blown out.
Like a fast break with the clock at 3 seconds in basketball, you'd like to be 3 on 1 heading to the finish line. Yes, LeBron might swat the ball back into your face but he's certainly going to do that if you're 1 on 1. See Cancellera, Fabian.
No one has put forth a lucid argument that a team effort at the professional level does not often make the difference between winning or losing, because that's self evident.
Unless stone tablets sent from Yahweh have commanded it to be so, how we currently reward (or don't) teams is an artificial construct, like anything in sports.
Some of you would live in mud huts because we always have lived in mud huts and we make huts out of mud. Jumping up and down pointing at mud is not a "cogent rebuttal" to a motion that brick may be a superior building material.
Event Services was suggesting a shift in how racers on a team are rewarded for an effort that produces a winning result in things like the Olympics and Nats. Examining the facts, the argument for has merit.
Last edited by Racer Ex; 05-29-14 at 09:30 AM.
#31
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Folsom, CA
Posts: 3,888
Mentioned: 32 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 417 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 3 Times
in
3 Posts
As I was introducing the riders at the start of the Folsom time trial at the Amgen Tour, I'd come across the domestiques who had NO results to speak of. Riders like Cannondale's Fabio Sabatini. He has ridden all of the Major Grand Tours. His top placing was 46th in the 2008 TdF. He was the Lantern Rouge at the 2011 Tour de France.
How do you make that sound good to a general audience?
I imagine the task was equally if not more difficult when introducing some of the lesser accomplished domestic team members.
#32
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Ontario
Posts: 740
Bikes: T1, S2, P3
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Last I checked pros are paid to do their job, even the ones not paid very much. Lets not act like the guys leading out Sagan are doing it completely selfless so he can have the glory, they were hired and are payed to do that exact thing. They do it because they dont have a chance of winning themselves.
And please don't compare a team pursuit to a RR like they are at all the same. A RR you can win with or without your team, they rarely make or break your ride. Try doing a TP solo from halfway in. Or TS and man1 and 2 pull off on the first lap.
To your football analogy this is why its not the same. Imagine half your lineman were not even there, what is your chance of winning? zero. Now imagine half your cycling team not there, whats your chance of winning? Must be zero without the whole team right? Even then a lineman might get a ring but the QB is the one with the 9 figure paycheck, and I doubt he 'shares' it with the team.
And please don't compare a team pursuit to a RR like they are at all the same. A RR you can win with or without your team, they rarely make or break your ride. Try doing a TP solo from halfway in. Or TS and man1 and 2 pull off on the first lap.
To your football analogy this is why its not the same. Imagine half your lineman were not even there, what is your chance of winning? zero. Now imagine half your cycling team not there, whats your chance of winning? Must be zero without the whole team right? Even then a lineman might get a ring but the QB is the one with the 9 figure paycheck, and I doubt he 'shares' it with the team.
#33
**** that
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: CALI
Posts: 15,402
Mentioned: 151 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1099 Post(s)
Liked 104 Times
in
30 Posts
As I was introducing the riders at the start of the Folsom time trial at the Amgen Tour, I'd come across the domestiques who had NO results to speak of. Riders like Cannondale's Fabio Sabatini. He has ridden all of the Major Grand Tours.
His top placing was 46th in the 2008 TdF.
He was the Lantern Rouge at the 2011 Tour de France.
How do you make that sound good to a general audience?
How do you make that sound good to a general audience?
#34
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 842
Bikes: Trek 1.2
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 25 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
I'm still new to racing and just started watching on TV, but I feel like the teammates are much stronger than the sprinters that win the races. If the team has 8 members and 7 are working at the front of the chase group (peleton) to pull in the break I feel like they are stronger than Cavendish who just sits in the middle of the group for 120 miles and then sprints for a few seconds and wins the race when his team clears out a lane for him. If the other guys are so strong, why don't they try saving some of their energy and then leading out with 1k to go instead of leading out Cav so he only has to sprint meters?
#35
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Sacramento, California, USA
Posts: 40,865
Bikes: Specialized Tarmac, Canyon Exceed, Specialized Transition, Ellsworth Roots, Ridley Excalibur
Mentioned: 68 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2952 Post(s)
Liked 3,106 Times
in
1,417 Posts
#36
Senior Member
I'm still new to racing and just started watching on TV, but I feel like the teammates are much stronger than the sprinters that win the races. If the team has 8 members and 7 are working at the front of the chase group (peleton) to pull in the break I feel like they are stronger than Cavendish who just sits in the middle of the group for 120 miles and then sprints for a few seconds and wins the race when his team clears out a lane for him. If the other guys are so strong, why don't they try saving some of their energy and then leading out with 1k to go instead of leading out Cav so he only has to sprint meters?
#37
out walking the earth
For more on Cavendish, and tidbits such as the correct spelling of peleton <sic> see 217.
#38
Senior Member
...
Note that in all professional races teams are allocated a specific number of slots and are, in fact, expected to start the race with those slots filled. Professional sports don't forfeit BTW, even if they fall short of the number of eligible players. This isn't Little League. ...
Note that in all professional races teams are allocated a specific number of slots and are, in fact, expected to start the race with those slots filled. Professional sports don't forfeit BTW, even if they fall short of the number of eligible players. This isn't Little League. ...
... The "team" competitions you reference are rewarded not for collective effort towards a goal, but rather for an aggregate of individuals based on time. It's like rewarding a basketball team for the best field goal percentage even if they get blown out.
Like a fast break with the clock at 3 seconds in basketball, you'd like to be 3 on 1 heading to the finish line. Yes, LeBron might swat the ball back into your face but he's certainly going to do that if you're 1 on 1. See Cancellera, Fabian. ...
Like a fast break with the clock at 3 seconds in basketball, you'd like to be 3 on 1 heading to the finish line. Yes, LeBron might swat the ball back into your face but he's certainly going to do that if you're 1 on 1. See Cancellera, Fabian. ...
Second, if you started Lebron James, solo, against a full team of starters, he'd get his ass kicked. Might never get past half court to the own basket to even attempt a shot. Not so in a bike race. Put Cancellera, solo, into a race where he'd be expected to do well, and he still has a shot at winning, might even be the favorite, despite not having teammates.
Unless stone tablets sent from Yahweh have commanded it to be so, how we currently reward (or don't) teams is an artificial construct, like anything in sports.
Some of you would live in mud huts because we always have lived in mud huts and we make huts out of mud. Jumping up and down pointing at mud is not a "cogent rebuttal" to a motion that brick may be a superior building material.
Event Services was suggesting a shift in how racers on a team are rewarded for an effort that produces a winning result in things like the Olympics and Nats. Examining the facts, the argument for has merit.
Some of you would live in mud huts because we always have lived in mud huts and we make huts out of mud. Jumping up and down pointing at mud is not a "cogent rebuttal" to a motion that brick may be a superior building material.
Event Services was suggesting a shift in how racers on a team are rewarded for an effort that produces a winning result in things like the Olympics and Nats. Examining the facts, the argument for has merit.
__________________
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
Last edited by Brian Ratliff; 05-29-14 at 11:28 AM. Reason: clarity
#39
Making a kilometer blurry
#40
Senior Member
In any case, he goes, at worse, from top favorite to top 10. This is not at all like Lebron going solo against an NBA starting team of five.
__________________
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
#41
**** that
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: CALI
Posts: 15,402
Mentioned: 151 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1099 Post(s)
Liked 104 Times
in
30 Posts
This thread is deep, very deep, in a very boring rabbit hole.
Actually this thread is a boring rabbit hole if you ask me.
Oh wait, nobody asked... carry on! =]
Actually this thread is a boring rabbit hole if you ask me.
Oh wait, nobody asked... carry on! =]
#43
out walking the earth
If you're in an imaginary universe where Armstrong is riding without teammates, his rivals would be without teammates. Froome would have beat Wiggins in such a universe. And Lemond Hinault.
There's no time to waste Marty
There's no time to waste Marty
#44
In the Pain Cave
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Nashville, TN
Posts: 1,672
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
What about a compromise? Jersey for most combative would be a fun addition to winners jersey. You still have some big issues especially with smaller races in that aside from the motopacer you viewing audience is very limited.
Introduce another jersey to go after and then it becomes a smaller ask to award a whole team trophies.
Introduce another jersey to go after and then it becomes a smaller ask to award a whole team trophies.
#45
Senior Member
I view bike racing as a collaborative sport than a team sport. These collaborations are between racers with corresponding interests and are intricate and fragile. Teams are simply one collaboration amongst many, albeit one where loyalty is mostly expected to trump expediency and personal gain.
__________________
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
Last edited by Brian Ratliff; 05-29-14 at 12:08 PM.
#47
Senior Member
If you're in an imaginary universe where Armstrong is riding without teammates, his rivals would be without teammates. Froome would have beat Wiggins in such a universe. And Lemond Hinault.
There's no time to waste Marty
[img]https://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/91mRbaBaGML._SL1500_.jpg[/im g]
There's no time to waste Marty
[img]https://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/91mRbaBaGML._SL1500_.jpg[/im g]
But, right, unknowable...
__________________
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
#48
Making a kilometer blurry
Bill Swerski: Now, gentlemen, let me ask you this: What if Da Bears were all 14 inches tall, you know, about so high? Now, what's your score of today's game?
Carl Wollarski: Against Da Giants?
Bill Swerski: Yes, give 'em a handicap.
Carl Wollarski: Bears 18, Giants 10. And that would finally be a good game.
Pat Arnold: Yeah, it would be a good game. Mini Bears 24, Giants 14.
Todd O'Conner: What about Ditka? Would he be mini, too?
Bill Swerski: No, he would be full-grown.
Todd O'Conner: Oh, then, uh.. Mini Bears 31, Giants 7.
Which is a pretty big difference.
Carl Wollarski: Against Da Giants?
Bill Swerski: Yes, give 'em a handicap.
Carl Wollarski: Bears 18, Giants 10. And that would finally be a good game.
Pat Arnold: Yeah, it would be a good game. Mini Bears 24, Giants 14.
Todd O'Conner: What about Ditka? Would he be mini, too?
Bill Swerski: No, he would be full-grown.
Todd O'Conner: Oh, then, uh.. Mini Bears 31, Giants 7.
Which is a pretty big difference.
#49
Senior Member
Sigh... if you want trophies for leading out your teammate, have at them... They cost $10.99 at the trophy store (another 10 bucks to engrave). Pros race for money. Amateurs race for challenge and entertainment. Nobody races for $10.99 trophies.
__________________
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
#50
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 6,840
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 31 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
So, do you need a time machine to imagine Michael Jordan alone on the court against any NBA caliber team? I'm pretty sure you don't need a time machine to imagine Armstrong isolated against rivals. I mean, I think I saw a video of it the other day...
But, right, unknowable...
But, right, unknowable...
Bob Swerski: Well, we'll get to that later Todd, but first off, we're gettin' ready to enjoy today's basketball game folks, in which the Detroit Pistons are gonna run into a certain team from a certain town known for it's Polish Sausage, assumed to be the home of....Da Bulls!
Superfans: (Lifting their beer mugs again) Da Bulls!
Bob Swerski: Okay, some predictions from the sports fans on today's game. Pat?
Pat Arnold: Bulls, one forty-nine to twenty-tree.
Bob Swerski: Carl?
Carl Wollarski: Bulls, one forty-nine to fifty-two.
Bob Swerski: Okay, some difference in opinion there between you guys. Todd?
Todd O'Conner: Bulls, four hundred and two to zip!
Bob Swerski: Okay! Real good!
Todd O'Conner: But, Michael Jordan will be held to under two-hundred points.
Bob Swerski: Todd, one-hundred points is the record.
Todd O'Conner: "Was".
Superfans: Da Bulls!