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Cat 5 Question

Old 06-27-14, 04:52 PM
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Originally Posted by hack
That's surprising. I did a couple of December races down in Compton last year and we had pretty full fields (50+ in each). I assumed that was a reflection of all of LA's cycling scene (fyi, I pretty lump anything south of Ventura, north of Oceanside, and maybe west of Palm Springs as "LA").
When I say around here, my reference is Redlands / Riverside. LA has about 8 different micro zones of cyclists. Our club used to be active enough (so I was told) that we had teams in many categories. Now its just a handful of racers scattered across categories, with almost zero new blood (I'm think the only guy racing in the 4's or 5's). The positive thing is the scene all around seems to be on the rise, but there is more focus on group rides / unsanctioned races.

I still believe its down slightly in SoCal, but there will always be a scene here. Compton is always popular, but a few have shortened (Ontario) and we lost at least one race series (Rosena Ranch).

Last edited by furiousferret; 06-27-14 at 05:37 PM.
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Old 06-27-14, 06:50 PM
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Originally Posted by shovelhd
The Northeast is a pretty active area. I'd say road fields in the categories I race in are down about 10-15% since 2011.
Bethel was down about 30%, give or take. Largest fields went from being in the 100-125 range to about 70, and the smallest fields went down to 30-40 riders from 70. It's weather related, of course, but on one weekend I wrote the smallest USAC insurance check I've written in a long, long time, maybe $360 (so 120 total racers).

I've shown up at races, like last weekend, where there were 5 pre-reg racers and I think 12 starters. To me that's not a race. 30-40-50 riders is tiny. 60-80 is nice. 100-125 is big.

Not sure what the answer is to the various questions but the discussion is good. It makes me think about what I can or need to do with the Series, it makes me think about other races, etc.
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Old 06-28-14, 07:00 AM
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Originally Posted by hack
I think these are fine ideas, but I don't see this happening without a major effort from USAC. From this thread alone, it is clear that the implimentation of Cat 5 is quite variable across the country with many (maybe most??) race coordinators being content to let Cat 5's be an early morning nuissance and nothing more. Also, with the lack of existing organization and race entry requirements, I think it would be a difficult sell to get the triathletes or first time racers to buy into the notion that while they're strong enough to ride away from the field that they shouldn't as that isn't the point of Cat 5. I could see the triathletes or new racers confused or frustrated by the notion that they're effectively paying for a group ride. Perhaps there could be additional incentive like having a couple of "mentors" ride with the pack and effectively grading the performance (rather safety) of each rider during the race and requiring the racers to have some number (5??) of mentor approvals before moving up to Cat 4.

Lastly, regarding the notion that clubs should be more in control, do you mean local race associations (e.g., Northern California and Nevada Cycling Association [NCNCA]) or actual clubs like Bob's Club and Race Team? I could see some conflict if it was left in the hands of the club/race teams as each team may have different approaches to racing and while we're all adults, I don't foresee people always getting on the same page.

As a former promoter I can only speak for myself. I never regarded Cat 5 as a nuisance. It was however always an intangible. Since there was no requirement to preregister, it was an unknown wether we would have enough entrants to run a race. I had the minimum at 5 entries, mainly because I believed then and now that holding the race was critical to those few riders to go away from the event thinking " Yep, we mattered "
They are in a race that should be designed for safety, yet still be competitive. To a rider it sounds simple, from a promoters viewpoint this can become a nightmare. The field comprises an extreme in skill level from the new rider in their 1st ever race to the more experienced club rider.
But the constant is that all are inexperienced where racing in a pack ( peloton ) is concerned.
Having mentors ( chaperones ) riding with the pack isn't realistic. Since now it is a controlled race, which will result in riders opting out. I understand they all want to race so being in a format that says " It's a race but we are going to control the pace and tactics doesn't work.
It's much more effective to limit the field, distance and difficulty of the race rather than control from within.

This is where the clubs need to network towards the same agenda. A local race association sets the guidelines according to the regional aspects. USAC sets the guidelines on the national level and UCI on the international level. It should all filter down to the local level, thru the various channels. This is where the clubs should come in.
It's not realistic to expect that USAC is going to implement additional programs for Cat 5.
Clubs have to be responsible for nurturing new riders and bringing them up to speed. this used to be the norm rather than the exception. There really is no point to be on a cycling team club that has no purpose other than a bunch of similar jerseys riding around. That is not a club, it's a group of lemmings.
It starts at the local level, we used to discuss these concerns at the officials/rep/promoters meetings.
In addition with the accessibility of instant information concerning training there is no reason why a well organized club cannot implement a system that complies with the rules and brings up new riders.
Call it developmental or whatever, but wether it is comprised of adults or juniors it is still the same thing.
In the long term, we gain riders who persevere and stay in the sport, the one's that are too impatient and think they don't need to rise thru the ranks then there's not much to be done with them other than to say " Go find another form of instant gratification "

i'm dismayed to see that some Cat 5's see themselves as ready to race at the upper levels. And get upset at being told that No there is still much to learn.
As posted earlier an unofficial training race where Cat 5's are mixed in with 3's, 2's and Pro's and the 5 rides away is misleading and illustrative as to how much more education is needed. Many of those higher categories would use the race as training, not going out to push. Racing well is about a systematic training plan. It's not about a hammerfest each time you hop on the bike. It's often we'll use a race as training, only going up to a predetermined certain level of intensity. I really don't know what else to add.

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Old 06-28-14, 09:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Wylde06
Ive been dropped/pulled in more races than ive finished with the main group. Ive done ~50 races since I started. I think ive finished maybe 10 without getting dropped.
I DNF'ed 44 of 45 races one year, when I overtrained because I was now 18 and eligible to do the 120 mile state RR (and I still thought I could learn to climb). I think I got pulled in most of them. I DNF'ed three of the first four races I ever did, definitely pulled in those; I was 15. I honestly don't remember the 5th race I did, like the course or what. The next 20 races are a blur, I have to check my training diaries to see what they were etc.

Originally Posted by TMonk
CDR has won races with like, 200w average? Something your average Joe, non-competitive, everyday cyclist is probably capable of. While that may have been a special circumstance, you can probably stand to save more energy during a race, and subsequently improve your results.
My best races are in the 170-190w range. At 200-205w I am usually so blown that I can't sprint. I've done well at 160w average, in "easier" races. About 175w avg in the Cat 2 Tour of Somerville (27.5 mph) until half a lap to go when I had to slow for a crash.

My FTP, depending on my fitness, is realistically between 200-230w. Right now it might be closer to 200-205w. Doing 222 watts for 2 min was so hard that I sat up. This was last night's trainer ride. I felt really good, I'd ridden 30min easy the day before (125-130w avg)so I decided to try an effort. I wanted to do a 20 min effort, started at 238-240w, had to ease, and realized at 2 minutes that there's no way I could hold even 220w for 20 min.

If I go out for a "hard ride" it's in the 170w range for an hour. I cannot sustain 160w for 2 hours, even when I'm pretty fit (climbing Palomar under pretty strong time pressure due to needing to get back before dark).
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Old 06-28-14, 10:36 AM
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@carpediemracing how much do you weigh? 140s? The numbers don't mean much until we know what that wattage has to drag around the course.
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Old 06-28-14, 01:02 PM
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Originally Posted by furiousferret
@carpediemracing how much do you weigh? 140s? The numbers don't mean much until we know what that wattage has to drag around the course.
I've been steady 175 since mid April, up to 178, down to 173. 170-ish March-April. I raced 2009 going from about 195 down to about 185, and I was doing a lot of riding, typically 3 days of racing a week (Sun crit, Tue crit, Wed track - that was the longest day, 3 hours for a typical night and much higher efforts than any other day). Over the 2009-2010 winter I got down into the mid 150s but steadily gained weight from end of 2010 until pretty much 2013. I raced 2013 starting at 180-185 and finishing at about 175.

*Edit I wish I was 140s I haven't seen that weight since the mid 1990s. I broke 160 around 2000, winter 2009 was the first time I'd been back into the 150s. To be even more complete I started racing when I was less than 100 lbs. At 17 I was 103 lbs, at 21 I was 112 lbs (according to my physicals). I still couldn't climb or TT but I could sprint.
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Old 06-28-14, 04:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Moyene Corniche
I really don't know what else to add.
This is an excellent post.

I'll echo the comment that the system is set up so that clubs are the appropriate place for riders to learn race skills. Back in the day, there was a $5 surcharge for unattached riders. The aim was to give racers an incentive to join a club.
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Old 06-28-14, 04:20 PM
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That's all well and good but it's not working.
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Old 06-28-14, 07:01 PM
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Originally Posted by shovelhd
That's all well and good but it's not working.
Fine, then what would you suggest ?
I'm looking at it from a perspective of racing here stateside and in France at the club level, having been a promoter as well as coached Juniors.
Also having ski raced and coached in that discipline, Juniors, College and adult team. Of the three, the adults were the most problematical.
Difficult to bring a horse to water.... is the old adage. It really isn't any different in cycling.

Very few riders make it to race on a national team at the Cat I level, let alone be good enough to go and grovel with the Pro's in Europe and make it back in One piece. That's the reality, but what I keep seeing and hearing here from the lower categories is an awful lot of bellyaching about how the system doesn't work, but very little about getting involved and in a small part working to change it for the better.
Cycling in this country will remain a niche sport, simply on the fact that as long as the US is predominantly a car culture this won't change. This and the fact of travel distances making it difficult for any serious alternative transportation.
That is a constant and is a variable that complicates promoters work in setting up races.

This is why clubs need to work together rather than treat everything as competition or a threat.
When faced with a common foe, separate fiefdoms are extinguished individually, however if there is alliances than progress can be achieved. Which is not to say that there cannot be competition, the cycling clubs or tennis clubs or ski clubs In France have an intense rivalry, but they also in conjunction work to get the things done that the governing body cannot. When that happens then you see newbs who are eager to go thru the learning process, since it's been explained to them just what the reality is. It breeds a more cohesive cycling community, where there isn't this superiority complex overshadowing the lower Cat's.
If this sounds like something that peaks an interest, then ask questions and find out why or what can you do to improve the status quo.
That is how a sport is built up. By the participants, not an outside governing body who is basically an extremely slow moving bureaucracy.
As a former promoter, it often wasn't fun dealing with USAC/USCF and the restrictive regs. On the other hand most of the officials I ever dealt with were incredibly hardworking and always willing to allow for a bit of leeway.

Riders or Cat 5's should also be more flexible and less apt to pre-judge the situations without all the facts. I totally empathize with the frustration but it is still about learning to race and it doesn't get any easier in the 4's, 3's, 2's and 1's. Just respect is gained from staying with it.
??
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Old 06-28-14, 07:56 PM
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Originally Posted by carpediemracing
My best races are in the 170-190w range. At 200-205w I am usually so blown that I can't sprint. I've done well at 160w average, in "easier" races. About 175w avg in the Cat 2 Tour of Somerville (27.5 mph) until half a lap to go when I had to slow for a crash.

My FTP, depending on my fitness, is realistically between 200-230w. Right now it might be closer to 200-205w. Doing 222 watts for 2 min was so hard that I sat up. This was last night's trainer ride. I felt really good, I'd ridden 30min easy the day before (125-130w avg)so I decided to try an effort. I wanted to do a 20 min effort, started at 238-240w, had to ease, and realized at 2 minutes that there's no way I could hold even 220w for 20 min.

If I go out for a "hard ride" it's in the 170w range for an hour. I cannot sustain 160w for 2 hours, even when I'm pretty fit (climbing Palomar under pretty strong time pressure due to needing to get back before dark).
Wow. This is really eye-opening to me and a true testament to how much skill and form plays a role in cycling. Since acquiring a power meter a meter a few months back, I've demonstrated to myself that I can produce 180w for 4 hours, and 230w for 1.5, but still have trouble in certain situations.

During races where you average below 200w, I imagine your NP is much higher, no? Are you able to produce 400+W for slightly extended periods in those final laps to maintain position?
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Old 06-28-14, 09:17 PM
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Originally Posted by shovelhd
The Northeast is a pretty active area. I'd say road fields in the categories I race in are down about 10-15% since 2011. Racers are ore registering later and later in the week before the race. One promoter has a sliding preregistration fee scale that rewards registering more than two weeks in advance. There are exceptions like Somerville and Exeter and Boston but for the bread and butter races field sizes are down. Race fees are up, payouts are down.
in my region, the penalty for late registration is usually $5-15. with on lie reg available until the night before and with variable weather, potential for low-turnout, other issues coming up (a crash the prior weekend), it tends not to make sense to pre-register unless one is super strapped for cash.

i get that this isn't good for promoters, but the penalty for late reg (or the bonus for early reg) isn't generally enough to align racers' goals with those of promoters.
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Old 06-29-14, 02:17 AM
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Originally Posted by TMonk
Wow. This is really eye-opening to me and a true testament to how much skill and form plays a role in cycling. Since acquiring a power meter a meter a few months back, I've demonstrated to myself that I can produce 180w for 4 hours, and 230w for 1.5, but still have trouble in certain situations.

During races where you average below 200w, I imagine your NP is much higher, no? Are you able to produce 400+W for slightly extended periods in those final laps to maintain position?
First, I almost never average more than 200w in a race. It's an epic race for me to do 200w because I so rarely see that number.

Second, remember all my races are flat. I am usually one of the first to get dropped on hills, even on non-racing club rides. I've had a 55+ year old woman (who admittedly does a race a year or something like that) ask me after a group ride if I was "really trying" when she rode me off her wheel at the back of the group. Yes I was absolutely redlined. Once you eliminate any hill longer than 30 seconds I'm in the game.

I typically don't average more than 300-350w for 60s in a given race except for the minute where I'm sprinting. By default, even if I coast for 40 seconds, I'll have a 333w minute if I do a 20 second 1000w sprint. My in-race efforts tend to be 30s or less, but at much higher powers (500w, maybe starting at 800w and dropping to 250-275 by the end).

Also, until I read your question on NP, I realized I stopped checking while I was using WKO+. It would come up with these outlandish numbers, 280w, 290w, stuff that I had absolutely no chance of holding. I based my first FTP tests, meaning my target pace, on those numbers and always blew up within minutes of starting an effort (20 min FTP test to hit 280w FTP means 280 / .95 = 294w, which is something I can sustain for only a couple minutes). It was super demoralizing trying to sustain a 3-5 minute pace for more than 3-5 minutes. I think I fell under the "lots of peaks and lots of coasting" NP anomaly which seemed to be an issue at the time. Now I use Golden Cheetah (since I'm using Macs). I never looked at xPower, which is their NP, until now. Looking at a few entries the races are basically 10-20w higher than my average. On training rides, with virtually no spikes, it's about the same, within a few watts.

My last good race was the M45 Nutmeg State Games, June 7 of this year. 34 minute race so very short. I have a clip out for it, which I'll put below. Some of the numbers are 172w avg (34min, race length), xPower (NP, sort of) 206w, 908w sprint for 14 seconds (1233w jump). The sprint's minute was 502w but that was because I did almost a quarter of that minute at 900+w and I didn't need to pedal after I finished . Excluding my sprint my biggest 1 minute was 312w; this was when I bridged a small gap when the field splintered after Frank McCormack (ex-Saturn pro) blew it to pieces. After that minute effort it took me probably 10 minutes to recover, when my HR finally dropped substantially (a few minutes after the dropped HR where the strap probably bounced or something, 30 min into the power file and about 18 min into the race). Until then I was really redlined. I think that my HR dropped when I dropped back in the field, which is in the clip.

A snapshot of the race's power profile. I didn't warm up except to ride to the start line and to the bathroom next to the S/F, as you can see in the "summary" bit at the bottom of the screen shot. I was carrying two wheels with me and I parked maybe 300m from the start area. I did one cool down lap and stopped. I think the spike at the beginning was me trying to get the bike onto the curb while holding two wheels in my hands.


The strava for that race is here. I'm not a premium member so wattage in Strava is guessed, meaning it implies no drafting. It's obviously way over what I actually did. Some people think the wattage was uploaded - I wish I were that strong, I'd be a really strong pro if I could do that kind of pace solo!

The race clip with the power numbers brought to life. The little "bridge" about 6 min into the clip is the spike on the chart above. I don't move around unnecessarily, I am patient, etc. All these are things I learned the hard way, by getting shelled dozens of times (one year I DNF 44 of 45 races).

Note that generally speaking I am really focused on shelter - for many years my goal was to see less than 60 seconds of wind per hour. In the above 2014 Nutmeg race I saw substantial wind that first lap when the wind hit me from the right. I was in the wind a good 10-15 seconds, which, based on a race just over 30 minutes, is half of my allotted "wind time". To put things in perspective that was a major, major, major error, like one of the stupidest mistakes I could make in a race. I rarely make errors like that and I chided myself for doing such an idiotic move so early in the race. I think that I'm in the majority when I consider something like that a tactical catastrophe, but it is, regardless of your power or whatever. If a rider puts down that much power they should be getting something done that affects the race, not just finding shelter. That's a guaranteed stupid move every time someone makes it, whether it's me or someone else. I try to avoid making stupid moves. During that race the right side before the final straight was the good side so I ended up on the wind side a lot, and I kept thinking to myself, "wtf am I doing?!". The clip captures most of those mistakes. I emphasize the error in the clip to illustrate what not to do. You can see how quickly I can get into shelter when pressed, it's maybe a few seconds. That's more like it, like 2 seconds in the wind, it means I can do that every 2 minutes (a lap) and only rack up 30 seconds of wind in the whole 35 minute, 15 lap race.

After my bridge the next 10 minutes of my raw helmet cam video is practically all rear wheels and butts. I was so close to blowing up, my head was hanging, etc. When you see my HR drop here and there I was recovering or recovered. HR is the blue line in the chart.

Because I'm not fit my HR is a bit higher than normal. Typically I'll hold 158-162 in a race, 166 is close to blowing up, 168 is on the edge, and 169-170 I can't even get out of the saddle. With significantly less fitness I'm seeing 175-179 bpm in almost every race.

shovel has mentioned that it looks like I'm tethered to the rider in front of me. In my clips, if you can see the rear wheel of the bike in front of me, I'm pretty far away, like 3-4 feet. If you can't see it then I'm closer, maybe inside a foot. I'm almost always appalled by how far away others stay from the protective/sheltering wheel in front of them. In the M45s it's much less so, but in a 3-4 race it can be shocking (and since I'm usually at the back I'm presuming many of those around me are Cat 4s). I also focus on sheltering in the right spot. Last Tuesday the wind hit from the right on one straight but riders kept insisting on sitting behind the wheel in front of them. The problem was that you couldn't get shelter until your front wheel was about up to the other rider's left crank. The guys sitting on the wheels had no shelter, they were getting blasted by the wind from the right.

As for training I think after the race Strava said my last 4 weeks averaged 1:20 per week. I've been doing 1-2 hours a week since sometime April. These past two weeks have been huge for me for 2014, over 4 hours each. In 2010, my last year where I committed a lot of time/energy to riding, I did about 450 hours so that's about 9 hours a week. I did a 33 hour week in there, did a couple other training block weeks (15-20 hour weeks), so realistically it was 7-8 hours a week. I upgraded to Cat 2 in August that year. For me I think 3 hours a week is minimum to stay competitive in the 3s (2 hours racing, 1 hour training).

When I train I generally JRA or do the trainer. Trainer rides are generally 120-140w, nothing special. In 2013 I did more trainer rides than all outside rides (training/racing) combined. Outside rides I tend to ride harder simply because I have to get up some hills or I want to clear a bit of road before cars catch up to me, etc. I jump if the moment grabs me. I think my outside rides avg 150-170w although some are in the 120s as well.

I put all my training on Strava specifically for questions about what I do. My "profile" is here, and you can look at the various training aspects, hours and such. From sometime April 2012 I think I'm missing only 30 minutes of riding (from a recent Tuesday Night race, where my phone somehow stopped doing GPS 37 minutes into the race), my Strava is a very complete picture of the training I've done. I even Strava some walks with Junior (he's 2 years old now) because sometimes they go more than a mile or so (my best mile pace is something like 30 minutes).

Finally my strength, physiologically speaking, is my sprint. All that conserving and saving wouldn't do me any good if I couldn't do well in a sprint since that's the only way I can do well. In this sprint, to put some reality to the numbers, I jumped in a 53x12 and finished the sprint in the 11. I was blowing up so I shifted up to reduce the number of pedal strokes I had to do. It was a cross-headwind and I accelerated to and maintained about 37 mph (37.5 mph in Golden Cheetah). Although not fast for that course - 42-44 mph is more typical in a cross tailwind sprint - it's fast considering the cross-headwind, one substantial enough that I was chiding myself on being in it for 15 seconds on that first lap.

My lowest number field sprinting win (for the race win on a Tuesday Night race) was well under 1000w peak, I think it was 900w peak, and I led it out. It was raining, there's a curve in the final sprint, and I think the limited traction and the perfect storm of how everyone was placed behind me meant that no one that would have trounced me had the chance to do so.

You can thank Junior for being up from 12:45 AM until just now for this long reply I typed a bit here and there while I waited to see if he'd fall asleep and he just didn't until I brought him downstairs with me.
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Old 06-29-14, 02:25 AM
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Originally Posted by tetonrider
in my region, the penalty for late registration is usually $5-15. with on lie reg available until the night before and with variable weather, potential for low-turnout, other issues coming up (a crash the prior weekend), it tends not to make sense to pre-register unless one is super strapped for cash.

i get that this isn't good for promoters, but the penalty for late reg (or the bonus for early reg) isn't generally enough to align racers' goals with those of promoters.
Did I say this before? I'll say it again, regardless. My theory, as a promoter, is that it's nice to get the late fee. However the late fee needs to be much more than the online reg fee. Typically it's 10%, so for $20 it's $2 or something. For $30, $3. A $5 late fee doesn't encourage online reg. A $10 is a little more encouraging, especially for a $20 race.

However I went to a race where it was $32 online, $42 day of (I ended up paying the $42). Only 5 were registered in the two fields racing together in the race I'd do (40-44, 45-49) and I think 12 took the line. Weather was spectacular, maybe 75-80 deg, sunny, just gorgeous, and it was forecast to be that for a while. Weather was not a factor. I wished I'd pre-reg so that other riders would know that there were more people showing up. With a field of 5 that's really discouraging, at least around here. On any other weekend I wouldn't have shown up but we were meeting family after the race so we'd be going there anyway.

So now I revised my theory on pre-reg. I think pre-reg is good until the field numbers get okay, like 30-50 riders in the field. After that I would be inclined to give the promoter the late fee bonus.

For the Series I try to really discount the full Series, so $17/week, $27? for two races/week. $22 pre-reg for daily, $27 for day-of. With a normal/good turnout I'm giving $1500 in prizes a week, $3000-4000 on the last week (larger fields typically and I do a field-based prize tier and GC prizes basically double the daily prizes). Unfortunately I need a minimum number of entries and this year we didn't hit that on any week.
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Old 06-29-14, 03:20 AM
  #164  
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as was said

gas is high
prize money is down
if there's a race close to home guys are doing that
guys register late because they don't want to buy for a race they're not doing if the weather is bad
if the bike reg fee is $3, and late fee is 10 and entry is $35 and the weather is iffy...
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Old 06-29-14, 06:52 AM
  #165  
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Originally Posted by carpediemracing
My FTP, depending on my fitness, is realistically between 200-230w. Right now it might be closer to 200-205w.
Of course, to maximize your success with these numbers, it helps to have a 1300w sprint A rider with similar numbers and an 800w sprint would not have a very interesting racing career.

But, it can't be overstated how much comparative advantage you can get from staying aero and staying focused, even in a strong, experienced field. It's like free power.
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Old 06-29-14, 06:53 AM
  #166  
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I ate $90 this weekend because I ate the ground on Tuesday. I don't normally register too far in advance for just this reason.

MC asked for suggestions. I have stated them many times. The bottom line is that USAC is an arm of the UCI and has little to no interest in grassroots amateur racing except for the cash grab and junior development for the world stage. They are not an organization that is focused on what we do every week. Leaving rider development up to the clubs with no structure or requirements gives us what we have today, which isn't working.
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Old 06-29-14, 08:08 AM
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Originally Posted by tetonrider
in my region, the penalty for late registration is usually $5-15. with on lie reg available until the night before and with variable weather, potential for low-turnout, other issues coming up (a crash the prior weekend), it tends not to make sense to pre-register unless one is super strapped for cash.

i get that this isn't good for promoters, but the penalty for late reg (or the bonus for early reg) isn't generally enough to align racers' goals with those of promoters.
You need to look at it from another angle. Promoting a race starts from the moment the previous year ends. With the amount of hoops to jump thru, it isn't possible to get a race up an running weeks before the event.
Pre-registration is more about the promoter and race staff being able to concentrate on the event on the days prior but most importantly on the eve and race day. There are always people who volunteered that for some reason or other are a no-show. This doubles the work for those setting up. It's not just about the revenues, multiplying entry fee's times entries may sound like promoters are raking it in but if you look at the costs of police, permits personel and equipment, it's not windfall profits..
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Old 06-29-14, 09:06 AM
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Originally Posted by gsteinb
as was said

gas is high
prize money is down
if there's a race close to home guys are doing that
guys register late because they don't want to buy for a race they're not doing if the weather is bad
if the bike reg fee is $3, and late fee is 10 and entry is $35 and the weather is iffy...
Good points, esp for an early season race with iffy weather every week.
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Old 06-29-14, 09:09 AM
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For me pre-reg is nice but I'm set up for day of race, and in fact most of my resources go towards that. It may be the wrong direction but that's how we've done things. Pre-reg is almost an afterthought. This is for an event that doesn't have much course stuff to handle, meaning closing roads and such.
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Old 07-10-14, 08:11 AM
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If been following these thread as I am interested in racing next year and I a couple of question for you more experience racers.

Some folks on this thread have said, "I agree that the 5's aren't (or shouldn't be) about winning." and "Exactly, Cat 5's have no idea what they're doing."

Firstly, if racing isn't about winning then what's it about? By its very definition, you are engaging in a race to cover a set distance in the shortest amount of time. Why would anyone want to get involved in any sport where they knew they had ZERO chances of winning? If I understand many points made here correctly; I'm expected to risk injury and damage to property so that someone else can win? So, what's the point of me taking those risk for someone else's pleasure? If Cat 5s were allowed to race each other and not be forced into faster speeds trying to keep up with the 4s it may be a safer proposition for everyone involved. However, from what i have seen, Cat 5s tend to take risk, that I assume they normally wouldn't, just to stay in a race that they can't win. By removing the 4s from that equation you most likely will reduce the speeds and the risk taken by novice riders. (Just a thought)

Secondly, to say that Cat 5s don't know what they are doing is just a generalization that does nothing for the sport. To say that they are less knowledgable and less experience is more accurate. Back to what I said earlier, why would anyone want to get into a sport that is not welcoming and set up to be a fair? I can understand paying your dues while you learn, but at what cost? You can probably learn more by racing with racers with similar skill levels than you will trying to run down someone you have no chance of catching. I may as well call up Wile E Coyote and get the number to ACME so I can buy a bike from them cause I know I'm going to have the same result.

I hope the more experienced racer here don't take offense to my post (I bet some will) as I am only trying to understand if this is really something I wish to pursue. I love to compete, maybe it's the Marine in me. However, at this stage of my life (45), I'm not looking to harm myself, someone else nor wreck an expensive bike. I believe that many good points have been made here, from mandatory team/club/group rides to safety glasses, but unfortunately these suggestion may not make it to organizers or governing bodies. I would like to race next year and so far I'm learning towards it, but at the same time I don't want to waste my time and risk injury or damage to an expensive bike by competing in something that I am set up to lose from the beginning. Sorry, that just doesn't make much sense to me.
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Old 07-10-14, 08:22 AM
  #171  
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It's happened quite a bit in this thread, but it's really silly to take something that means 'there's more to cat 5 races than crossing the finish line first' and interpret it as you shouldn't try to win.

As to riding for someone else's pleasure, read Domestique. It's a complex sport. The lower cats are supposed to be about learning the skills and nuances of the sport so one can safely integrate into higher levels.

Most cat 3s don't know much about the sport. Christ, I know guys who have been racing for 25 years who don't know much about the sport.


If you don't like your fields talk to your promoters. We don't hold much sway on this particular spot in the interweb.
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Old 07-10-14, 08:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Taiko
If been following these thread as I am interested in racing next year and I a couple of question for you more experience racers.

Some folks on this thread have said, "I agree that the 5's aren't (or shouldn't be) about winning." and "Exactly, Cat 5's have no idea what they're doing."

Firstly, if racing isn't about winning then what's it about? By its very definition, you are engaging in a race to cover a set distance in the shortest amount of time. Why would anyone want to get involved in any sport where they knew they had ZERO chances of winning? If I understand many points made here correctly; I'm expected to risk injury and damage to property so that someone else can win? So, what's the point of me taking those risk for someone else's pleasure? If Cat 5s were allowed to race each other and not be forced into faster speeds trying to keep up with the 4s it may be a safer proposition for everyone involved. However, from what i have seen, Cat 5s tend to take risk, that I assume they normally wouldn't, just to stay in a race that they can't win. By removing the 4s from that equation you most likely will reduce the speeds and the risk taken by novice riders. (Just a thought)

Secondly, to say that Cat 5s don't know what they are doing is just a generalization that does nothing for the sport. To say that they are less knowledgable and less experience is more accurate. Back to what I said earlier, why would anyone want to get into a sport that is not welcoming and set up to be a fair? I can understand paying your dues while you learn, but at what cost? You can probably learn more by racing with racers with similar skill levels than you will trying to run down someone you have no chance of catching. I may as well call up Wile E Coyote and get the number to ACME so I can buy a bike from them cause I know I'm going to have the same result.

I hope the more experienced racer here don't take offense to my post (I bet some will) as I am only trying to understand if this is really something I wish to pursue. I love to compete, maybe it's the Marine in me. However, at this stage of my life (45), I'm not looking to harm myself, someone else nor wreck an expensive bike. I believe that many good points have been made here, from mandatory team/club/group rides to safety glasses, but unfortunately these suggestion may not make it to organizers or governing bodies. I would like to race next year and so far I'm learning towards it, but at the same time I don't want to waste my time and risk injury or damage to an expensive bike by competing in something that I am set up to lose from the beginning. Sorry, that just doesn't make much sense to me.
Well, its a dangerous sport, so there is a chance of injury or totaling your bike. Cycling in general has these risks, so don't think racing isn't that much more dangerous than cycling in general. Most Cat 5's know what they're doing, its just that a small percentage do not, it makes the field much more dangerous. Most guys out here have been doing group rides for years before they sniff racing.

Also bear in mind that the 4 to 5 gap is not that big in some areas. My last race the guy that won the 5's won the 4 / 5 race as well. The thing about bike racing is that unlike other sports, you can't just buy a bike on Friday and race on Saturday. For a true beginner a Cat 5 race is truly brutal.

One of the things about the Category system is the caste structure it creates. Its hard to win a race, so many look at their success in the sport by what Category they race. Once some Cat up, they'll look down at the Category Racers lower than them. Its the nature of grouping period, if you are at the bottom expect some negativity. Also expect this type of logic:

Ask a Cat 4 and they'll tell you the 5's isn't about winning
Ask a Cat 3 and they'll tell you the 4's and 5's isn't about winning
Ask a Cat 2 and they'll tell you the 3's, 4's and 5's isn't about winning

I'm pretty new to racing myself, and I had the same reservations you did. My first group ride I got in a crash and stayed away for a long time, but it always called. In the end I suggest trying it at least once.
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Old 07-10-14, 09:00 AM
  #173  
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Originally Posted by furiousferret
Well, its a dangerous sport, so there is a chance of injury or totaling your bike. Cycling in general has these risks, so don't think racing isn't that much more dangerous than cycling in general. Most Cat 5's know what they're doing, its just that a small percentage do not, it makes the field much more dangerous. Most guys out here have been doing group rides for years before they sniff racing.

Also bear in mind that the 4 to 5 gap is not that big in some areas. My last race the guy that won the 5's won the 4 / 5 race as well. The thing about bike racing is that unlike other sports, you can't just buy a bike on Friday and race on Saturday. For a true beginner a Cat 5 race is truly brutal.

One of the things about the Category system is the caste structure it creates. Its hard to win a race, so many look at their success in the sport by what Category they race. Once some Cat up, they'll look down at the Category Racers lower than them. Its the nature of grouping period, if you are at the bottom expect some negativity. Also expect this type of logic:

Ask a Cat 4 and they'll tell you the 5's isn't about winning
Ask a Cat 3 and they'll tell you the 4's and 5's isn't about winning
Ask a Cat 2 and they'll tell you the 3's, 4's and 5's isn't about winning

I'm pretty new to racing myself, and I had the same reservations you did. My first group ride I got in a crash and stayed away for a long time, but it always called. In the end I suggest trying it at least once.

you're really hung up on this and it's totally wrong
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Old 07-10-14, 09:10 AM
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Originally Posted by furiousferret
. Also expect this type of logic:

Ask a Cat 4 and they'll tell you the 5's isn't about winning
Ask a Cat 3 and they'll tell you the 4's and 5's isn't about winning
Ask a Cat 2 and they'll tell you the 3's, 4's and 5's isn't about winning
The point your missing is that the rules for Cat 5 are specifically designed to deemphasize winning.

Results don't matter in Cat 5, you only need to finish to upgrade. Cat 2-4, you need to get results to upgrade.

There's no prize money for winning in Cat 5, there is for Cat 2-4.

The whole intent is try to create a safer entry into the sport, in part by deemphasizing winning. Sure you race to win in Cat 5, but hopefully with a healthy dose of caution.
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Old 07-10-14, 10:21 AM
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Yeah, cat 5 isn't about winning, but you should still try to win. we just mean try things out. try attacking nonstop, try sprinting, try kilo attacks, etc, etc. Unlike when a 1 or 2 lines up to a race and knows his strengths and his plan, a 5 doesn't really know what they are good at. A lot of people think they are amazing sprinters, but if we lined up together they would be left in the dust. Same goes for climbing. Ever been on a group ride where the resident climber won't stop talking about how fast he is, yet he's slow as crap up hill? Racing in the 5s is about learning, not just winning.
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