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Racer Tech Thread

Old 10-15-16, 06:16 PM
  #4051  
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Originally Posted by mattm
Ha could be.

Or maybe it was Tyler Durden, and Doge was just talking to himself, a la Fight Club.
Its geometry (or kinematics). I recall it being a polite conversation, just nothing being done.

Here is another one. Uncrashed bike cracked in the TT middle. @tetonrider, you should ask your friend how many of these they have heard of.
https://www.bikeforums.net/attachment...1&d=1476576515
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File Type: jpg
TarmacCrack.jpg (93.0 KB, 216 views)

Last edited by Doge; 10-15-16 at 06:24 PM.
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Old 10-15-16, 09:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Ygduf
I wouldn't presume too much. I just ordered short on the first TT bike on principle, then when I had the shop move the powermeter off the old tt bike to the road bike (newer meter, moving to standard rings) I didn't even think of the crank length until I got on it and my saddle felt low.

I worried about it for half a second, then remembered I have no sprint anyway so max torque isn't my concern, and I spend plenty of time off the front trying to merckx tt it anyhow so the extra .00005 degrees of hip angle when I'm trying to stay low is fine.
some low-cadence guys like the extra torque of a longer crank. bert grabsch comes to mind. he used a huge ring.

torque isn't *all* about the sprint.

i hear ya, though.

crank length differences on the order we're talking about are pretty meaningless, yet you'll hear people say they totally can't deal with cranks of a different length.
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Old 10-15-16, 10:01 PM
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Uncrashed, but something caused the crack. Was someone surfing on a toptube and hit a pothole? I've seen that crack a top tube before.
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Old 10-15-16, 10:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Doge
On the market >5 years and I have seen year to year model changes.
other than the fact that the venge hasn't changed (save for paint), i agree.


Originally Posted by doge
Nothing happened and yesterday - they had never heard of it.
maybe they were like "does this guy know you have to clamp the skewer?"

Originally Posted by Doge
The bike is not here, but there is a basic design flaw. If you draw force vectors/or show a string tangent to the chain ring and to the axle you can see the angle of dropout slot to string. If the up side of that string/dropout angle is acute, the chain pules the axle into the dropout. If it is obtuse, the chain tension will pull the wheel out and clamping tension matters.

Of course two extremes are the old slotted dropouts where wheels had to stay in place near 100% based on clamping pressure and track/TT slots where the wheel could slide, but was never going to come out.

So long ago I made a video to test this using un-clamped skewers. Venge - wheel pulls out. This is as unscientific as my wheel testing videos but it does confirm that the wheels needs that clamping force to stay in. I assume they did this for wheel change benefits. https://vimeo.com/127089488
can't believe i'm responding, but you're commenting on a bike that's been in production for >5 years, is used by tons and tons of riders from the world tour on down to amateur ranks, and yet you think there is some design flaw because a wheel pulls out when you pedal and it is not clamped?

you realize that skewers have cams that create tension for a reason, right?

internal cam skewers (shimano and campy) are much more secure designs and less prone to slipping/operator error.

anyway.... i definitely know the right people there and could ask again, but that you are reporting an issue with a mature design that no one else has.... did you ever ask yourself "could it be me?"
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Old 10-15-16, 10:52 PM
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Originally Posted by tetonrider
... did you ever ask yourself "could it be me?"
Fact is - they do not record reported issues. What has that got to do with who was responsible? This current recall is based on reported 7 claims. I'm fairly convinced they don't do a good job of tracking claims. My one issue is not in their system - 1.5 years after I reported it, they have not heard about it. That is the issue.

The part about could it be me? That is why it pulled out four times. Blamed me, kid, parts. Then I started looking more closely after #4. My conclusion, which I am qualified to make, is it is a design issue. I *think* you understand force vectors. The Venge pulls a wheel out under chain tension and 2 Cannondales, a MASI and Raleigh I tested don't.

It is fixed. I fixed it. The problem is gone.

It is not super important to me to get them involved after them not doing anything. The issue is not about science, physics, or engineering. It is they are unresponsive. They are STILL unresponsive.
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Old 10-15-16, 10:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Doge
This current recall is based on reported 7 claims.
yeah--on a new bike.

Originally Posted by doge
The part about could it be me? That is why it pulled out four times. Blamed me, kid, parts. Then I started looking more closely after #4. My conclusion, which I am qualified to make, is it is a design issue. I *think* you understand force vectors. The Venge pulls a wheel out under chain tension and 2 Cannondales, a MASI and Raleigh I tested don't.
yeaaaaaah....... if the design issue were so serious, don't you think it would not have survived 5, 6 years under TdF sprints and WT pros?

you might have a better design (benefit of the doubt), but that it is not causing an issue for SO many is telling.

Originally Posted by doge
It is fixed. I fixed it. The problem is gone.
you changed the angle the wheel enters the dropout? if that is not how it was fixed, doesn't that mean the issue you reported is not really what is wrong?

Last edited by tetonrider; 10-15-16 at 11:14 PM. Reason: fixed quote
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Old 10-15-16, 11:06 PM
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Originally Posted by tetonrider
yeah--on a new bike.
It is fixed. I fixed it. The problem is gone.
you changed the angle the wheel enters the dropout? if that is not how it was fixed, doesn't that mean the issue you reported is not really what is wrong?
What I originally suspected was part of the issue (#2). It is a contributor. There is no reported issue, they don't record it.

As I posted above there are two things:
1 - the dropout angle has the wheel move out of dropouts under power (as opposed to into the dropout under power)
2 - Hardened steel plates minimize the grip that resists the wheel from coming out.

FWIW an un-clamped Cannondale EVO or MASI could not lose a wheel under power.

Ask your friends if they agree. Ask them if they think it may be different than other models. Ask them is anything like steel plates have changed from year to year.

And I'd be happy to speak to a technical person.
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Old 10-15-16, 11:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Doge
What I originally suspected was part of the issue (#2). It is a contributor. There is no reported issue, they don't record it.

As I posted above there are two things:
1 - the dropout angle has the wheel move out of dropouts under power (as opposed to into the dropout under power)
2 - Hardened steel plates minimize the grip that resists the wheel from coming out.

Ask your friends if they agree. Ask them if they think it may be different than other models. Ask them is anything like steel plates have changed from year to year.

And I'd be happy to speak to a technical person.
ever ridden a bike with horizontal dropouts? clamp tension works. i have a TT bike with hardened dropouts (no hanger), and i've ridden it without the set screws butting up against the skewer.

you know what? a good skewer (particularly internal cam ones, a la dura ace) works just great!

now, if someone goes with a WW external cam skewer with aluminum nuts.....that's a poor choice. we all know which material will win.

anyhoo..... my guess is that your issue got dismissed, perhaps by the wrong people. or maybe it was passed on and got dismissed by the right people. in general it has all the makings of an issue that would get dismissed, as basically everyone here has done.

just write to or call mike sinyard. seriously. his info is available.

tell him why you think there is an issue with a frame that has been in production for 5+ years and why no one else has discovered it, other than your boy due to high power. I'm being serious here.

i have an original venge, i work on venges from 2016.... this just isn't a thing that is common. if it were designed improperly, (a) it would have been addressed at some point and/or (b) we'd hear many claims. the internet is REALLY good at spreading that type of stuff; the same person tends to broadcast that info on 10 sites, and others repeat it. we don't see that here.

sometimes when the whole world tries to tell you something, they are right; sometimes EVERYONE else is wrong, though. that's why you should contact the guy in power who has the ability to make everyone jump. he will do it; i've seen it happen before.
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Old 10-16-16, 06:26 AM
  #4059  
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Originally Posted by mattm
Or maybe it was Tyler Durden, and Doge was just talking to himself, a la Fight Club.
This theory makes a lot of sense, and it explains his comments/arguments, which I cannot follow more than half the time.
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Old 10-16-16, 10:27 AM
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Originally Posted by tetonrider
ever ridden a bike with horizontal dropouts? clamp tension works....
I have, many riders have not. UCI added a rule to add tabs to front forks so wheels don't come out.

Try this. Turn bike upside down and remove rear skewer. Then from a stop, do a hard/fast acceleration in the big ring. Does the wheel tend to pull out - or into the dropout? I think you saw the clip I did. Our Venge, the wheel pops out. My hand, would put out a mall fraction of what a rider might.

So here is what I know:
-They have not contacted me back after I followed their system of both calling and contacting the dealer.
-The wheel comes out of the Venge when unclamped while is does not on other bike I tested - EVO, MASI, (Raleigh same as Venge turns out. But all solid Alloy dropouts).
-There are steel plates (I think hardened) on the dropouts that are harder than the hub axle material.

Here is what I assume:
-There was upper tier power and chain tension coaxing the wheel out of the dropouts.
-The clamping was not as tight as it could have been, but as tight as used on other bikes without issue and the hardened steel face did not provide enough bite/friction. So under shock on a sprint of a relatively powerful rider the wheel was pulled out.

If the dropout angle had been more vertical, and/or they had not had steel plates, that level of clamping force would have been fine.

Last edited by Doge; 10-16-16 at 11:44 AM.
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Old 10-16-16, 10:29 AM
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Originally Posted by tetonrider
i have an original venge, i work on venges from 2016.......
Please PM me his contact info.
Did you see any changes in dropout - plates?
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Old 10-16-16, 11:48 AM
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Originally Posted by tetonrider
...
you know what? a good skewer (particularly internal cam ones, a la dura ace) works just great!
...
You saw we went through this 19 months ago and I posted all the skewers.
But all my horizontal dropout road frames had mild steel drop-outs and serrated washers on the hubs - with steel axles.

The Venge has 2-3mm of carbon next to the hanger. I'm not sure it can take all the crushing pressure of a steel shaft DA or Campy internal CAM can put out.

I also don't know how much the hub axle can take. I'm sure you've adjusted cone bearings so the QR takes just the right amount of play out when clammed. It is a different system.
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Old 10-18-16, 05:43 AM
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So... on a slightly different topic...

I'm looking at used SRMs for my crit bike. I run a 52-54t single narrow-wide ring on that bike; all the used SRM units I'm considering are 53/39 standard double setups.

Would I need to recalibrate the slope or similar if I buy one and convert it to 1x? Can I even run it as a 1X?
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Old 10-19-16, 01:48 PM
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So for that hill climbing bike junior txts me about 5:45 AM he thinks he thinks he should go seat post of alloy over carbon as it is stiffer and won't need the shock absorbing. A few things I smiled about:
-you need to wake me up for that?
-Carbon is not exotic to those who have been around carbon all their life
-Alloy can be lighter
-Does it matter?
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Old 10-21-16, 09:07 PM
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Originally Posted by tommyrod74
So... on a slightly different topic...

I'm looking at used SRMs for my crit bike. I run a 52-54t single narrow-wide ring on that bike; all the used SRM units I'm considering are 53/39 standard double setups.

Would I need to recalibrate the slope or similar if I buy one and convert it to 1x? Can I even run it as a 1X?
generally speaking, SRMs are not particularly impacted by ring changes (neither brand nor size). i have run 42T single ring, 53/39 and 56/44 on one of mine, and the slope changes ~0.5% (i've checked).

i do recommend checking, but it shouldn't be much -- if any -- change.

some other PMs are susceptible to changes of ring *brand*, let alone ring size.

as far as 1x, you can for sure run it; chainline is sub-optimal. you need to either decide whether you want better chainline for the larger cogs (then mount it on the inside) or smaller ones (then mount it on the outside). since you said 52-54T, that means you will pretty much have to mount it on the outside (chain stay interference is the issue; check your bike, but pretty sure this will be an issue on all bikes with such a large ring on the inside).

with sub-optimal chainline you will get more drag and less than ideal shifts (the latter may not be detectable). in theory, you could get some drops.
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Old 10-22-16, 05:12 PM
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I'm picking up a new bike. My giants have 120 8 degree rise stems. While the obvious answer as to what stem to get in order to keep my fit the same seems to be get an 8 degree rise stem, a cursory glance didn't turn I'm much. I don't even really know if my obvious answer is accurate. Further I've been reading stem reviews and can't tell one from the others. I have a set of the same bars as a start. Thoughts? Suggestions? Help?
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Old 10-22-16, 05:23 PM
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Originally Posted by gsteinb
I'm picking up a new bike. My giants have 120 8 degree rise stems. While the obvious answer as to what stem to get in order to keep my fit the same seems to be get an 8 degree rise stem, a cursory glance didn't turn I'm much. I don't even really know if my obvious answer is accurate. Further I've been reading stem reviews and can't tell one from the others. I have a set of the same bars as a start. Thoughts? Suggestions? Help?
This calculator is pretty useful for determining how stem angles/lengths and spacers affect fit.
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Old 10-22-16, 05:24 PM
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Your autocorrect is confusing.
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Old 10-22-16, 05:39 PM
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What is the new bike? How does the headtube angle compare on the new bike versus the old?
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Old 10-22-16, 07:34 PM
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Originally Posted by gsteinb
I'm picking up a new bike. My giants have 120 8 degree rise stems. While the obvious answer as to what stem to get in order to keep my fit the same seems to be get an 8 degree rise stem, a cursory glance didn't turn I'm much. I don't even really know if my obvious answer is accurate. Further I've been reading stem reviews and can't tell one from the others. I have a set of the same bars as a start. Thoughts? Suggestions? Help?
what's stack and reach on the old bike? how about for the new bike?

if it is not published for the old bike, you can measure it by putting it against the wall, measuring wall to HT and floor to HT, then subtract wall to BB and floor to BB, respectively.

that will figure out if you need more or less reach (or stack) than your current bike.

as @topflightpro said, you can calculate all of this, but it depends on frame size, HT length, HTA, etc.

you didn't supply enough info (e.g. no models) for anyone here to provide more info.

as for stems....it's just math (trig) to figure out what length/angle you need. of note: some stems claim to be a certain length but can vary as much as 5mm IME.

congrats on the new bike.
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Old 10-22-16, 08:17 PM
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What's the latest, approved 'cheap' but not 'scary' carbon wheelset?
I was/am in the market for a new wheelset as was eyeing the November Rail 52s, but they recently bowed out of the carbon wheelset market.

I'd like something with U shape, 25/26mm wide, 50-60mm deep, clincher, 11 speed. Rims or built set is fine, I'll probably toss in a PowerTap at some point.

I'm tempted to do a velobuild set, but I don't know much about them.
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Old 10-23-16, 05:39 AM
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I have a set of last-generation Boyd wheels and I'm pretty pleased with them. The current ones are 25mm wide and they have a 60mm version (mine are 44s). The LBS where I work is a dealer; a couple of years back Boyd got a bad batch of rims from their supplier and we had three customers go through the warranty process with them. Boyd made no attempt to weasel out of it and the wheels were replaced within about a week, which is the time it took for the bad wheels to go back and replacements to ship out. Good folks to work with, good wheels.
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Old 10-23-16, 05:46 AM
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Ancker, I've had a lot of luck buying a few years old name brand wheels for good prices. Look on the various forums - Paceline and Slowtwitch have large selections, and Online Swap Meet group on Facebook.

I ended up getting some Zipp 404 tubulars a few months ago for $1050 shipped off Online Swap Meet back in August. When they arrived, it was clear they only ever had one set of tires glued on them.
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Old 10-23-16, 07:57 AM
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Originally Posted by ancker
What's the latest, approved 'cheap' but not 'scary' carbon wheelset?
I was/am in the market for a new wheelset as was eyeing the November Rail 52s, but they recently bowed out of the carbon wheelset market.

I'd like something with U shape, 25/26mm wide, 50-60mm deep, clincher, 11 speed. Rims or built set is fine, I'll probably toss in a PowerTap at some point.

I'm tempted to do a velobuild set, but I don't know much about them.
williams wheels are popular out here. I and a few others in here like racerim wheels, but they aren't that bulbous u-shape.
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Old 10-23-16, 09:07 AM
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Originally Posted by revchuck
I have a set of last-generation Boyd wheels and I'm pretty pleased with them. The current ones are 25mm wide and they have a 60mm version (mine are 44s). The LBS where I work is a dealer; a couple of years back Boyd got a bad batch of rims from their supplier and we had three customers go through the warranty process with them. Boyd made no attempt to weasel out of it and the wheels were replaced within about a week, which is the time it took for the bad wheels to go back and replacements to ship out. Good folks to work with, good wheels.
I had an aluminum set (still using the front). The rear wheel had constant issues (I have a 1.5 year long email chain with him everytime something popped up). A spoke started to pull through the rim and I noticed days outside of the 2 year warranty. Boyd wanted nothing to do with it after the fact. Because of that I can't recommend Boyd wheels. Maybe if there was a dealer nearby I would change my mind, but until that happens...
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