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Old 12-13-17, 08:30 AM
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Probably an M4 or M3 bolt. You can get them at the hardware store for a few cents. I can try and check tonight when I get home and report back.
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Old 12-13-17, 08:45 PM
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Originally Posted by dz_nuzz
Probably an M4 or M3 bolt. You can get them at the hardware store for a few cents. I can try and check tonight when I get home and report back.
Would be greatly appreciated.

Hardware store was the plan, but figured I'd need to go in with more than "derailleur limit screw". Local bike shop is always happy to order one for me with an arrival date several weeks out.
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Old 12-18-17, 10:54 AM
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I believe it is an M3 bolt. Try getting one that is ~15mm in length.
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Old 12-22-17, 08:00 AM
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I figured someone would appreciate knowing this at some point: Easton EC90 aero road handlebars can indeed be fit with the new bar-end A-Junction. Some places reported that there was a structural wall built-in that prevented that but it is not true, I have done the proper routing with 2 cables going down to the A-Junction.
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Old 12-22-17, 10:16 AM
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Looking for opinions here, has anyone ever given up the power meter for training? Lately I've been looking at the numbers less. I know last year I got too caught up in the ctl / at battle.

Just looking for stories.
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Old 12-22-17, 11:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Ttoc6
Looking for opinions here, has anyone ever given up the power meter for training? Lately I've been looking at the numbers less. I know last year I got too caught up in the ctl / at battle.

Just looking for stories.
I've posted pages on this and am in a minority.
I ride with one, but don't train with it. Periodically I confirm what I think my power is is what the number says. It mostly depresses me.
My kid has them and rarely uses them. Periodically one gets turned on and picked up, but in general he is anti recording devices and rides very well with perceived effort (so does Taylor Phinny). We've played guessing games with me having the head unit and he can guess power and HR to about 5%. I don't think that is unusual with practice. Every rider has "tells" on when they can't breath through the nose, comfort etc.

Besides the personal resistance to providing power numbers, he thinks, like I think, it is the fastest time, or who (or team) places the best in the race that matters more than the power, and the rider needs to listen to how they feel, not what the numbers say and figure out how to place best. Translating that to what power numbers to use in training is tough.

In various environments/venues it was not clear what the power should be. Tahoe vs San Clemente, COS, Brekenridge, Grand Junction, Pikes Peak, Louisville summer - all have very different weather that would cause expected power to vary by as much as 10%. Pikes Peak HC was a good one - power was to drop about 20W from start to finish. That was too complex to train with.

Coaches (but one - a power coach) pretty much all told him how hard he should ride based on how he felt. So it was not a useful device for him. He may pick it up more for training next year for track, but again, lap time matters more than power. Changing position to maximize power may affect aerodynamics. So the rider would have to balance between the two. If instead they just used the clock, the power is a factor not really needed.
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Old 12-22-17, 12:24 PM
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Doge, I'm sorry, but you still don't seem to get it. Power is a tool to be used when training. Not racing. You don't win anything for putting out the best power in a race. And yes, you can use power files from a race to identify areas in need of improvement. (And please don't pull out the Chris Froome/Team Sky red herring again as a counter point.)

While it's great that your son does fine without power, he is not reflective of most racers on this forum, i.e. he is still a teenager and more years and races under his belt than most of the people posting here. As for track, that's probably the least useful place for power.

TTOC6, at this time of the year, yeah, watching power can kind of be a drag, especially if you are spending most of your time doing base. I can pretty much guarantee MattM isn't looking at his power when doing his long Z2 rides. So, if you want to not look at it for awhile, don't. You would probably still benefit from recording the data just so you have it, but put the computer in your pocket or cover the screen with tape.

You will likely find though that as you get closer to the race season and start getting more targeted with your workouts, you will appreciate having the PM more.
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Old 12-22-17, 01:59 PM
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i've gone through various phases of using/not using power data and it definitely took me some maturity to get to the point where i can use the numbers without being too neurotic about it. at this point i think that with a relatively limited amount of time to train the PM helps me be more efficient and watching myself improve is a good motivator, especially this time of year.
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Old 12-22-17, 07:11 PM
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Originally Posted by topflightpro
Doge, I'm sorry, but you still don't seem to get it. Power is a tool to be used when training. Not racing. ...
I do get it. The post was for training. You train for the race. If you don't know what the race will take, knowing what power to train to is also a guess. I had this issue with power before kid was born.
If you are just trying to get fit - for training I like the base on bike, the build in the gym, and some bike based intervals and a bit of tempo. More sleep and nutrition. That is not a method unique to me or the kid. It is also a bit old school, yet still effective.
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Old 12-23-17, 12:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Ttoc6
Looking for opinions here, has anyone ever given up the power meter for training? Lately I've been looking at the numbers less. I know last year I got too caught up in the ctl / at battle.

Just looking for stories.
I've used power since 2009. For a few months in the 3's (2012) I went without power (or a garmin or any data at all) for a few months during the race season and did well - upgraded to 2. The hub had pooped out or something and I was lazy to fix it. At first it's really hard to not have, but you get used to it.

This season I stopped using power again in April after a crash, my PT's rim was bent and I slacked on getting it fixed. Didn't use power up until a month or so ago.

For me, the power data is somewhat interesting after races, to see what that sprint/bridge-effort/whatever was really like, and if it was as hard as it felt, etc (it never is). I never ever ever look at power or even display it during races - except TTs of course.

I think power (and CTL/ATL) is the most useful during the winter/base months. Even if I'm not using a PM for whatever reason, I always at least estimate TSS (based on HR or previous rides) so get some kind of idea of CTL, even if it's not 100% accurate. But having the real data for CTL is ideal.

Originally Posted by topflightpro
I can pretty much guarantee MattM isn't looking at his power when doing his long Z2 rides.
Actually - when I'm doing zone 2 during Base I'm like Froome and staring at my stem the whole time, making sure my 3s power is exactly in the z2 range, and that the average power is as well. Easy to go over or under without thinking about it, and I'm trying to stay 100% in that zone on those rides.

I won't claim that anyone should follow what I do; I'm sure you could pay someone to tell you otherwise. Or @Ygduf will tell you for free!
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Old 12-23-17, 10:05 AM
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I started training with power in 2008 and have had it ever since. I prefer to race and train with power. Since all my racing is timed events, I use power for a guide to assist in measuring out energy assuming it is allowed under the rules.

I have power on all my bikes including track bikes.

Power is the racer's currency to buy speed. The more power one has the more speed one can buy. And not all speed costs the same. But if one is short on power, one has to look for less expensive speed - if it is available.

The application of speed at the right moments in time, determine results. If more speed is required and one cannot generate it, well, results suffer.

Now fixation on anything in sports seems to be problematic. So fixating on power production at the cost of everything else or obsessing about it is probably detrimental. And allowing a power number such as FTP to become a mental limiter is not great. Racing is about doing something extraordinary above and beyond what one was capable of doing in training.

And there is this...turning over power files to a coach may cause the coach to suggest something the athlete does not want to do. So sharing information with others may result in unwanted interaction, advice or ways to improve. Some athletes want to do what they want to do when they want to do it. Does that sound like a teenager?

My first rule of power training is there are no bad numbers. Power numbers do not define who I am. It is just a way to allow me or a third party to create a training construct with the goal of going fast on a bike at the right moment in time.

I have been doing similar rides as @mattm - constant power rides. The goal is to keep power "on" in a range for longer periods of time. I find this type of ride physically and mentally challenging.

I find power at the track useful during sessions where I do not have a coach present or another racer to provide lap times. And using power as a guide during an endurance session is very useful.

Thursday, I did a training session with a partner at the track. Warmup, accelerations seated and standing and then a seated climbing jump from the blue band and then a standing rolling jump off the rail. Then a standing start.

We then did 2X 20 minute of team intervals. Racer one leads for four laps at the stayers line and then dives to the pole lane for a fast lap with racer two on his wheel. Racer two then leads for 4 laps and we repeat.

Leading is tempo. Following is endurance. And diving for a fast lap is bridging power. I like this workout since it works the entire power curve in all riding positions. I warmed up in 80 gear inches and did the efforts in 86 gear inches.

I got metrics for the track workout and it was included in my performance manager.

It is unclear to me how power does not work at the track (although I know power meter limitations during transient conditions), is less useful or that this workout is not similar to what racers have been doing forever. I have the added benefit of instantaneous and post ride analysis available to me and I can do the workout again and compare results. I can send the workout to a coach if I chose to. YMMV

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Old 12-23-17, 11:47 AM
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Training with power is like cooking, you have to follow the recipe until you know how to cook well enough to improvise without destroying the meal.

Less poor attempt at a New Yorker tagline - you wouldn't go to the gym, not know how much weight you're lifting, and be like "eh, this feels right.", and then track your progress based on how good the unknown amount of weight felt when you picked it up.
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Old 12-23-17, 12:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Doge
I do get it. The post was for training. You train for the race. If you don't know what the race will take, knowing what power to train to is also a guess. I had this issue with power before kid was born.
If you are just trying to get fit - for training I like the base on bike, the build in the gym, and some bike based intervals and a bit of tempo. More sleep and nutrition. That is not a method unique to me or the kid. It is also a bit old school, yet still effective.
You need whatever power you need to beat the guy next to you. You will never know what the other racer can do on that day. And even then, power is only one component. Timing, tactics, drafting all factor in to it.

Power is simply a measure of effort. TKP's reference to lifting weights without knowing the actual weight is pretty apt. FTP is just a theoretical assessment of what one could do for an hour. If you can improve that, in theory, you should be able to go faster. If everyone else is improving too, well, actual race results may not improve.
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Old 12-23-17, 12:43 PM
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Originally Posted by topflightpro
You need whatever power you need to beat the guy next to you. ...
TTs are a big part of racing. They are held in many different environments, are different distances etc. They often involve positions that compromise power for better position/more speed. One TT in AZ power needs to be ~400W to win. Near Truckee - about 370. Louisville - I don't know.
Then there are hill climbs. Both in a RR when the rider is solo and the TT type.

Originally Posted by topflightpro
...You will never know what the other racer can do on that day. And even then, power is only one component. Timing, tactics, drafting all factor in to it....
Yes. So why train with power over weights, intervals and sprint and then long tempo and recovery rides. I understand the power training methods - I have the book too. But not all juniors, Cat 1s or WT riders use that book. I think weights are more efficient for tearing down muscle and rebuilding.

Originally Posted by topflightpro
...
TKP's reference to lifting weights without knowing the actual weight is pretty apt. ...
Yes, and the weight routine I subscribe to does not require you know what the weight is or how many reps exactly. You do sets to a feel/burn and then recover. If you are not recovered, you don't lift as hard, or don't lift. The person can guess about what size weight is need to get the burn right. There is no goal to do 14 reps, or 80#. Sometimes there is a goal, just for confidence/test. That is like seeing how fast you can go on a segment - or what power you can hold for so long. But that is not the best training - IMO of course.

Originally Posted by topflightpro
...Power is simply a measure of effort. ...
It is a measure of the power the device is recording. It will vary a bit from hub to pedal. It does not measure the effort in the core, or the arms that are used in standing, sprinting or high profile wheels in a cross wind. Best measure for that would be VO2. A trained rider can know their effort well enough by feel and some coaches put more value on feel than the actual number. I agree with that. If the program says hold 600W and the rider feels due to fatigue for whatever the reason, like 550W is better - I favor going with what the rider feels (others don't). That makes the usefulness of the PM less. The rider is doing what they feel they should do, not what the meter says to do.

The PM does measure progress in more power. That is normally going faster, but not always. As body's change, positions change it is much easier to decide what the rider is trying to achieve and measure it with a ride and a clock than looking at the power numbers. I can see a PM used at the track. I can also see using a clock. The lowest time is the goal.

Part of why I'm skewed is I've been around a lot of changing bodies and power. Me and wife - as we age power loss, body composition bike stuff all play into how fast we go.
The kids on the team as they grow. In the last year one (19 year old) kid gains 15# another is 8# lighter - same composition as before, same height. Who got relatively faster? A PM won't tell me or them. A TT will, for that course. Change the course, and I need another test.

Last edited by Doge; 12-23-17 at 12:56 PM.
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Old 12-23-17, 01:17 PM
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Today I Learned that @Doge is in to crossfit
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Old 12-23-17, 01:20 PM
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Originally Posted by TheKillerPenguin
... you wouldn't go to the gym, not know how much weight you're lifting, and be like "eh, this feels right.", and then track your progress based on how good the unknown amount of weight felt when you picked it up.
The thing about the gym for the cyclist is progress is not measured in the gym (or on the PM).
In cross-fit it is.

On that Daniel doing 3 sets of 10 pull-ups with 35# weights hanging on him. The number is for bragging. It has no positive bearing on anything he does other than make him feel good. And he wants to get the AF pull-up record of 50 something. Long shot due to his size, but if he does, that will likely get him more than winning a few races.

Last edited by Doge; 12-23-17 at 01:24 PM.
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Old 12-23-17, 02:29 PM
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Originally Posted by topflightpro
You need whatever power you need to beat the guy next to you.
this
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Old 12-26-17, 04:53 PM
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I've posted my son and wife's HR in a TT before and mentioned I've seen others (that I can't post). I just posted this for another thread again showing how steady a focused HR can be for a trained racer that pays attention to rest (everything, sleep, recovery), hydration etc. Despite what many books and the popular opinion is, HR CAN correlate well to real effort.
If you look at the rides with power and HR here https://www.strava.com/segments/3438723(and other TTs) you will see the HR plot is the more stable vs power.
I use the TT because riders are focusing. Not talking, goofing around or standing, or...

When it comes to concentrated applied power, it is hard to convince me HRM does not measure effort for a trained, prepared athlete.

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Old 12-26-17, 06:35 PM
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I'm not sure that "stable" is the right word for it. Most folks using power get three- or ten-second average readings. Heart rate just doesn't change that fast unless you're in a really herky-jerky race, and then it'd still look smoother. My guess is that if one were to set the computer to read one-minute power averages, it would closely resemble the HR graph.

FWIW, my TT graphs look like your first example, except the HR is 20 bpm lower, the power is about 40% lower, and the speed is WAY lower. I'm old and feeble, get over it.
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Old 12-26-17, 07:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Doge
I've posted my son and wife's HR in a TT before and mentioned I've seen others (that I can't post). I just posted this for another thread again showing how steady a focused HR can be for a trained racer that pays attention to rest (everything, sleep, recovery), hydration etc. Despite what many books and the popular opinion is, HR CAN correlate well to real effort.
Yes the lines correlate pretty well (when one goes up, the other one does too), but where HR breaks down is what bpm you'll get for a given effort.

HR can be elevated if you're tired, dehydrated, overly caffeinated, or sleep-deprived, etc - so trying to do intervals in some specific zone is less accurate using HR.

It's not the worst thing to use for training, but it's not the best either, in my opinion.
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Old 12-26-17, 08:38 PM
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Originally Posted by mattm
...HR breaks down is what bpm you'll get for a given effort.

HR can be elevated if you're tired, dehydrated, overly caffeinated, or sleep-deprived, etc - so trying to do intervals in some specific zone is less accurate using HR.
...
All true. But if you (or the racer I showed) are, say...dehydrated should you/they hold the 417W or the HR?

If dehydrated (or un-rested etc.) and driving to the watts generated with proper hydration and rest, then the rider will blow.
If they don't blow, then the watt numbers and hydration were off to begin with.

A good racer knows that the stuff they do the week before affects what they do at the race day.

Last edited by Doge; 12-26-17 at 08:43 PM.
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Old 12-26-17, 09:00 PM
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I won't ride my bike without a powermeter. I won't ride my tt bike without putting a powermeter on it first. I've turned around midway through workouts and gone home when my powermeter died (only two times now that I stay on top of it more).

I got my first powertap in 2005 I think and it has, without doubt, 100% changed everything about my training and riding. It's been a massive boon.

I still remember my first year with a powermeter. I was already a cat 1, but I had no long-endurance-power. I couldn't ride in a break to save my life. The year before I did the Tour of SE Ohio back when that was a big thing and got in the main break the first day and just hung on bleeding out of my eyeballs until I got popped. I just couldn't figure out why I sucked so badly. Then I got a powermeter and I tried to do like a 270 watt tempo ride for an hour and just died and didn't even make it 40 minutes. Lightbulb.

Contrast that to last winter when I did 89% ftp for 3 hours straight after a few years of total devotion to improving that long-term power. Huge, huge difference. My racing results are so much better. My racing overall is so much better. My training is so much better, and I do almost HALF the training hours I used to do. There's just no fluff now. No b.s. spinning. No group rides where I'm coasting for 2 hours.

It's awesome. I credit it all to a powermeter. I don't like training just for the sake of training, and I wouldn't ride my bike if I didn't race it, so maximizing that training time is the name of the game for me. I don't care much about ctl or tsb or any of that jazz because I've had so many times where the numbers just don't match up to my sensations so I'm not too fussed about that. But in-ride numbers and interval numbers I want to have at all times to the point I don't want to ride without them.
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Old 12-26-17, 10:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Doge
All true. But if you (or the racer I showed) are, say...dehydrated should you/they hold the 417W or the HR?
hr is flawed because it's unnaturally limited. I can do a climb at max hr at end with 400w, or I can do the climb at max HR, focused, and find another 15w. If I stopped trying 100% because I was satisfied with sitting at peak HR I'd lose a lot.
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Old 12-26-17, 10:24 PM
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Luddites gonna luddite. Unless it's to do with making a bike meet the UCI limit. Then weight trumps reliability. But otherwise...
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Old 12-26-17, 11:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Ygduf
hr is flawed because it's unnaturally limited. I can do a climb at max hr at end with 400w, or I can do the climb at max HR, focused, and find another 15w. If I stopped trying 100% because I was satisfied with sitting at peak HR I'd lose a lot.
Power and HR are flawed if you are fixed on them.
Someone as experienced as you knows what they can do regardless of what the head unit reads.
Or am I wrong?

Puppy TTs about 194. He was rowing at 205. In both cases the power and the HR followed the effort.
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