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Racer Tech Thread

Old 12-18-18, 09:33 AM
  #5676  
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Originally Posted by mattm View Post
Is it A Thing that "tubeless ready" rims are SUPER f-ing hard to mount non-tubeless tires on to?

Anyway anyone have experience with these? Or mounting regular tires on "tubeless ready" rims in general?
OMG yes. I almost broke the rim...yes, the rim, of a wheel trying to get Schwalbe Pro Ones on once...it was terrible. It was equally hard getting them off. I almost just cut them off with tin snips.
I've since switched to a handful of tubeless compatible (instead of tubeless ready; WTF is there a distinction there?) wheels and mounting has been much easier, if I can't do it by hand, a bead jack makes it simple/quick.

The soap and water recommendation I thought is usually for 'seating' rather than mounting.
I bought one of those AirShot things. It works surprisingly well with the 6 Hutchinson Road tubeless and 2 WTB 650b tires I've seated.
Coat bead with soapy water, mount tires, pour a little bit of soapy water on the rim bed, just enough to lubricate, then remove core, attach Airshot (pre-pumped to 120+psi), hit the switch, and boom. Seated.
Remove airshot carefully, add sealant, replace core, pump with regular floor pump. The shake the crap out of it and do the normal tubeless dance of letting it sit horizontal on each side for a bit.
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Old 12-18-18, 11:33 AM
  #5677  
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Originally Posted by mattm View Post
Is it A Thing that "tubeless ready" rims are SUPER f-ing hard to mount non-tubeless tires on to?

I got some DT Switss P1600's for training wheels - they're "tubeless ready" but I just want to run them with gp4000s & tubes.

I gave up after five minutes of struggling to get the tire on.. I could maybe get it done, but really wondering if I want to repeat that struggle on the side of the road. Much less on the side of the road in the rain..

Perusing the user manual, it says to use "soap & water" to mount the tires... wtf.

Maybe it's just these wheels, maybe the tire, maybe it's just me, dunno.

Anyway anyone have experience with these? Or mounting regular tires on "tubeless ready" rims in general?
hahahahah. yes! I knew those ENVE wheels were a pain in my ass to mount tires on and I avoided using them forever outside races. I gave up, thinking "how bad could it be" when I needed another carbon set of wheels and began using them. The day after I got my first training-ride flat and spent 30 minutes with another dude, using 3 levers and 4 hands, changing a tube on the side of the road I sold them.

Un-****ing-believable. I don't have the patience for that. Turned the ENVE 7.7 into the zipps which I can mount tires on without levers.
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Old 12-18-18, 11:34 AM
  #5678  
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Originally Posted by MDcatV View Post
i have. but on the e-motion ones, which aren't as penal as other more typical/standard rollers.
tbf I think it's possible, I just suck at rollers and have bad nerves in general so I avoid it. much easier to hook up a nice trainer and focus on the warmup rather than trying to not fall.
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Old 01-08-19, 06:31 PM
  #5679  
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I'm getting a deal on spec through my team this year on a new bike and I'm heavily debating a venge vs a tarmac. Both similar builds but venge is a few hundred bucks more. I'd put an aero road bar on the tarmac because I prefer that feeling and it would close down the aero gap between the two bikes.

What do others think?
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Old 01-08-19, 07:07 PM
  #5680  
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I work in a Specialized shop and we've sold a few '19 Venges. The consensus is that they're notably faster than the Tarmacs. I haven't ridden either, just reporting what the riders said.
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Old 01-09-19, 04:43 AM
  #5681  
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i'd take a tarmac over a venge any day although that's probably a decision driven by aesthetics more than anything else.

speaking of aero bars, has anyone tried the aluminum bontrager ones? i need new bars regardless and they also offer these in 38cm so I figure it's a worthwhile investment.

https://www.trekbikes.com/za/en_ZA/e...lebar/p/23238/
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Old 01-09-19, 04:32 PM
  #5682  
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Originally Posted by revchuck View Post
I work in a Specialized shop and we've sold a few '19 Venges. The consensus is that they're notably faster than the Tarmacs. I haven't ridden either, just reporting what the riders said.
choice-supportive bias and like .03% truth maybe.
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Old 01-09-19, 04:33 PM
  #5683  
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Originally Posted by mike868y View Post
i'd take a tarmac over a venge any day although that's probably a decision driven by aesthetics more than anything else.

speaking of aero bars, has anyone tried the aluminum bontrager ones? i need new bars regardless and they also offer these in 38cm so I figure it's a worthwhile investment.

https://www.trekbikes.com/za/en_ZA/e...lebar/p/23238/
I have not tried them but I know people who have reported that they are "fine."

Given your size I wouldn't imagine much flex or anything.
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Old 01-10-19, 06:37 AM
  #5684  
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I've heard two complaints about those Bontrager bars:
1. They're heavy.
2. The internal routing is not great and the metal edges on the routing holes kind of cuts into the housing. (Which really shouldn't cause a performance issue.)
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Old 01-10-19, 07:59 AM
  #5685  
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thanks for the comments. do you all happen to know if they're heavy compared to other aluminums bars or heavy compared to carbon bars? it's either those or some standard round tubing aluminum bars. i feel like it'd be pretty easy to file down the edges of the routing holes to dull the edges?
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Old 01-10-19, 08:24 AM
  #5686  
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From Bontrager's website: 380mm = 320g 400mm = 330g 420mm = 340g 440mm = 350g

I feel like I had seen reports though that they were closer to 390g for a 42.
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Old 01-10-19, 09:17 AM
  #5687  
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I've used a set for a few years now, I'm more or less indifferent about them. Would I buy them again, sure.

Originally Posted by topflightpro View Post
I've heard two complaints about those Bontrager bars:
1. They're heavy.
2. The internal routing is not great and the metal edges on the routing holes kind of cuts into the housing. (Which really shouldn't cause a performance issue.)
Both are true, its dug in a bit into the plastic cover of the cables. The weight is a compromise (and I don't know the exact numbers but its not a carbon bar so its heavy). This is a bar $100 lighter than other aero bars (because carbon) and you're still saving 5 watts or so over a round tube handlebar.
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Old 01-10-19, 10:30 AM
  #5688  
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Any tips on using a silca disc wheel adapter? Keeps leaking. I can’t hold it and pump 100 psi at the same time.

Maybe I should cut up an old tube and squeeze some of that under the adapter while it is seated.
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Old 01-10-19, 10:36 AM
  #5689  
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Originally Posted by furiousferret View Post
I've used a set for a few years now, I'm more or less indifferent about them. Would I buy them again, sure.



Both are true, its dug in a bit into the plastic cover of the cables. The weight is a compromise (and I don't know the exact numbers but its not a carbon bar so its heavy). This is a bar $100 lighter than other aero bars (because carbon) and you're still saving 5 watts or so over a round tube handlebar.
yeah there's no way i'd ever spend the money on a carbon bar given my grad school salary and i've been using the same specialized bars for 6 years now so I'm not picky, just looking for something that works and saves a few W in the process. there also aren't a ton of bars available in 38cm, which is nice.
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Old 01-10-19, 09:33 PM
  #5690  
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Originally Posted by burnthesheep View Post
Any tips on using a silca disc wheel adapter? Keeps leaking. I can’t hold it and pump 100 psi at the same time.

Maybe I should cut up an old tube and squeeze some of that under the adapter while it is seated.
Good luck. I hate pumping up tires on my disc or tri spoke. My crack pipe just hates me. I used a friend's ENVE one and it was nicer but I deal with it for the money savings lol
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Old 02-19-19, 03:15 PM
  #5691  
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So I just bought 25mm tires for the first time (only did 23s before). Is this going to make me faster on a dry course?
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Old 02-19-19, 03:44 PM
  #5692  
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Originally Posted by Radish_legs View Post
So I just bought 25mm tires for the first time (only did 23s before). Is this going to make me faster on a dry course?
What wheels are you running? I know my 25's match up with my HED Ardennes rims better for more aero. And also, are the roads smooth near you?
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Old 02-19-19, 03:51 PM
  #5693  
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Originally Posted by Cypress View Post
What wheels are you running? I know my 25's match up with my HED Ardennes rims better for more aero. And also, are the roads smooth near you?
FLO 60s. Roads vary. Sometimes smooth, sometimes not. bust mostly fairly smooth.
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Old 02-19-19, 04:13 PM
  #5694  
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Originally Posted by Radish_legs View Post
FLO 60s. Roads vary. Sometimes smooth, sometimes not. bust mostly fairly smooth.
24.4mm wide rims with a 25mm wide tires sounds aerodynamically delicious. Have fun playing around with tire pressures.
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Old 02-20-19, 08:16 AM
  #5695  
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I got so pissed at my Silca press on chuck, I went and spent $5, bastardized an old tube for the presta valve, and came up with this. Now, I can screw on the hose and inflate the disc/trispoke without cussing and without needing 4 hands.

Also, I wasn't going to buy a $65 chuck to get something that actually works hands free.

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Old 02-20-19, 04:43 PM
  #5696  
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nice
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Old 02-22-19, 09:32 PM
  #5697  
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Nobody seems to be talking about rotational weight anymore. Am I mistaken here? A cyclist puts power out in very punchy pulses, and a light tire and rim accelerate to a higher speed faster than a bigger tire and rim. A lighter tire is generally a faster tire. Discuss!
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Old 02-23-19, 04:40 PM
  #5698  
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Originally Posted by venturi95 View Post
Nobody seems to be talking about rotational weight anymore. Am I mistaken here? A cyclist puts power out in very punchy pulses, and a light tire and rim accelerate to a higher speed faster than a bigger tire and rim. A lighter tire is generally a faster tire. Discuss!
Back when our old buddy Caley was on this forum we connected and I ended up having him on my wheels while still in college. Fast forward to him working at Velonews - he always told me he would look for an opportunity to get my wheels involved somehow. He devised some of the first real testing that I had really ever seen outside of biased tests run and designed by companies selling wheels. Unfortunately he put me up against a lot of guys that were industry big houses. I was running open mold at the time so my rim was what it was aerodynamically. Even so we weren't really that far off from the overall performance aerodynamically. Then they checked overall wheel weight and then rotational inertia. I was top in both (lowest weight and rotational inertia). I was also half or a third the price of any other set in there.

No one gave 2 craps. It never turned into anything for me and no one ever mentioned the weight or inertia results. *shrug*.

Yet every single person who was racing on my wheels at the time would talk about the feel in comparison to industry big guys like Zipp. Saying how much they loved ours. Then I went out to Colorado for a USGP race and ran across Leonard Zinn. This was at least a year or two after that testing Caley had done. Zinn remarked how he distinctly remembered my wheels and was genuinely impressed and loved the ride. This was before his heart issues obviously.

So sure - I am sure someone will link to all sorts of pseudo studies and articles that look at the physics involved using 4 or 5 different perspectives that will sometimes conflict with each other or not give a definitive answer or a completely biased one but yes - Rotational weight and the mass moment of inertia greatly affect how the wheel feels in acceleration, cornering and general performance. It's immensely under valued but we will keep looking at it.

The rest of the industry has jumped the shark - it's all disc and gravel and adventure. Road is Dead and these products have added so much weight to the equation that in 10 years when someone who is coming into the sport now goes and tries riding a "vintage" race rim brake setup they'll be amazed at the feeling. There will be a resurgence of light rim brake setups in 10-20 years from now.
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Old 02-23-19, 10:05 PM
  #5699  
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When aero wheels and low spoke count wheels started to take over there was only mention of all-up weight of a wheelset. Rim weight was never mentioned. Mr. Zinn came up with a way to compare the inertia of one wheel to another: a slender, long threaded rod was attached to the ceiling, the wheel was bolted firmly to the bottom of the rod with the rod taking up the place of the axle. The wheel was rotated 90 degrees and the number of back and forth cycles was noted. Heavier rim equals more cycles.
Even time trialing at a "constant speed" a racer is trying to accelerate his bike twice with each crank revolution. Excuse me if this is obvious but no test data ever takes this into account. I ride on roads in good condition for the most part, and the only thing I have ever noticed about "bigger, faster, better rolling" tires is their increased weight.
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Old 02-23-19, 11:54 PM
  #5700  
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Originally Posted by venturi95 View Post
Nobody seems to be talking about rotational weight anymore. Am I mistaken here? A cyclist puts power out in very punchy pulses, and a light tire and rim accelerate to a higher speed faster than a bigger tire and rim. A lighter tire is generally a faster tire. Discuss!
For steady state riding a heavier tire is better. I can't find the link but BikeTechReview aka Craig Willett tested on himself using weighted inner tubes (so the wheel and tire were the same). He found a slight but significant benefit, aka lower power, when adding weight to the tube. Keep in mind he's a stronger rider, not super jumpy, big motor. He's a "drope the hammer" and hold it at 500w kind of rider.

I tried to go with the aero > weight, spent a lot of money on heavier aero training wheels. I was imagining myself doing steadier training rides and perhaps training races (with mostly Cat 1s and 2s, who just motor along like they're on motorcycles, so not much pace change). With tires etc my aero training wheels are 3 lbs (1500g) heavier than my aero race wheels, and they have the same hubs and spokes! I was wondering why, in the best year of my recent racing life 2010, I simply couldn't last very long in the local Tues races. I switched to using my aero race wheels (remember, 3 lbs lighter) and was immediately vying for the sprint win, versus getting shelled 15 min in.

I have no science to back it up, and it may be more me (Craig thinks higher wheel weight isn't bad), but when it comes to how I do, I've literally never done well on the aero training wheels, even in my best form.

I'm definitely a punchy kind of rider. I do short 1/4 pedal strokes to close small gaps. I learned that when riding a tandem in a group and it took 5 pedal strokes to do the same thing - we got shelled a couple miles into an easy Monday ride. After that tandem ride I realized I do a little punch down to close slight gaps. Lighter wheels would help with that, and that may be a "me" thing.
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