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Old 10-30-14, 10:41 AM
  #626  
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You're comparing the price on a brandy new DA 9000 crank with a PC 8 against what, to come up with a 400% difference, Zeus?
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Old 10-30-14, 10:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Ygduf
TR, I'm not arguing with you. I just meant that for me 1 > 2 in that GPS is the feature I value over the start/stop stuff. I didn't ask any questions other that how the non start-stop worked as I've never used anything other than a garmin or now this pioneer.

Your attention to the minutia in power calibration, recording, all that is fine. Don't be sensitive about it. It works for you, you enjoy it, all that's great. Every time I try to be light-hearted or less than 100% deadpan serious this goes sideways. Let's not.

My garmin(s) never recorded wrong data until the gps went bad on one which was warrantied. This 510 was great until it wasn't. I don't really recall ever having a love affair with garmin after the pita it was to get the 500 fixed, but the 510 randomly losing rides erased any warm feelings I have for them. Lesson learned.

no sensitivity here--i asked a genuine question about the pioneer head unit. i like that it has GPS among other features and was curious about its file handling. it sounds like is it more robust than the garmin but does not improve upon it in at least one area. each device has strengths and weaknesses, which is good fodder for a thread related to technology. i still keep a couple garmins around because they have a use to me. GPS has some use to me. the pc7 is not perfect. sounds like the pioneer is not, either. i am hopeful for the pc8 but suspect it will improve in some areas but still have some holes. time will tell.

for the garmin, i know too many smart people who have, at one time or another, missed out on some data because they failed to hit start. as someone who appreciates intuitive design, it makes me sad when one has to perform several (admittedly easy) steps simply to save a file. shut down without stopping/resetting and possibly lose your file? that's bad. that otherwise intelligent people make this mistake simply means that the design wasn't carried out as well as it could have been. IMO, the pc7 gets this right, but the pc7 lacks other features many people consider essential.

"value" is something that is impossible to discuss. some very expensive things are bargains (for some people) and some inexpensive things can be quite costly. i know i've saved money on many power/data recording-related items over the years only to find that it really cost me far more than i saved (again, subjective). i like to steer clear of those discussions of and discuss capabilities; people can assign "value" to those things based.

IMO, a forum is for discussion that members can participate in -- and even if they do not actively participate there are many more who can read and benefit. i've heard you say before (e.g., during the dialogue between me and "alaska mike") that something is "not worth it to discuss". that point of view, again IMO, fails to recognize that there are others who are listening, taking it all in, and forming their own opinions. also, people find these threads in the future via search engines and rich discussion can be valuable.

i don't expect to change your opinion in any way, but i know my own mind is open, and i like to learn about new devices and consider them for the future. i learned things from hearing alaska mike's opinion, and his opinion made me examine my own. i'm hopeful we'll one day see an inexpensive ($300?), accurate, reliable power meter and head unit. there have been units that promised this before.

still, there's a tendency for people to look at power meters in their context of use (which is totally fine) but then make broad statements that their needs reflect what everyone needs out of a device. to witness: some people who use power meters do so for more than just basic training zones (e.g., aero testing). i don't say which use is right, but to ignore one or the other is misguided and often short-sighted.
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Old 10-30-14, 11:00 AM
  #628  
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Originally Posted by tetonrider
no sensitivity here
IMO, a forum is for discussion that members can participate in -- and even if they do not actively participate there are many more who can read and benefit. i've heard you say before (e.g., during the dialogue between me and "alaska mike") that something is "not worth it to discuss". that point of view, again IMO, fails to recognize that there are others who are listening, taking it all in, and forming their own opinions. also, people find these threads in the future via search engines and rich discussion can be valuable.
cool.

I didn't mean to discourage anyone from sharing his/her opinion (it had already been shared, anyway), just wanted to agree with him and let him know that he'd get pages of differing opinions and that he shouldn't worry about it or feel like he had to justify his.

And I agree with you. Value is absolutely relative to the user. Please keep that in mind; I'm only ever saying what I value. Not saying someone else is wrong by implication.

I am an impulse buyer. If someone wants something (pc8/SRM/Coach/sew-up tires/whatever) that'll improve their enjoyment of the experience, cool. If they ask opinions I'll say what I would or wouldn't do, but I'm never saying my opinion is right or wrong. Reasonable people can value different things. It's absolutely nbd.
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Old 10-30-14, 11:05 AM
  #629  
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Anybody using one of those new sram cx1 clutch RD thingies?
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Old 10-30-14, 11:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Ygduf
cool.

I didn't mean to discourage anyone from sharing his/her opinion (it had already been shared, anyway), just wanted to agree with him and let him know that he'd get pages of differing opinions and that he shouldn't worry about it or feel like he had to justify his.

And I agree with you. Value is absolutely relative to the user. Please keep that in mind; I'm only ever saying what I value. Not saying someone else is wrong by implication.

I am an impulse buyer. If someone wants something (pc8/SRM/Coach/sew-up tires/whatever) that'll improve their enjoyment of the experience, cool. If they ask opinions I'll say what I would or wouldn't do, but I'm never saying my opinion is right or wrong. Reasonable people can value different things. It's absolutely nbd.
a forum's for discussion. it's not up to you (or anyone) to absolve mike of a need to "justify" his situation. explaining what he does and why enriches the discussion -- i don't see any of it as "justification" in spirit although it technically fits the word's definition. i like that alaska mike has an opinion. after the discussion he may walk away with a different one, or he might even be more resolute. or someone reading who doesn't yet have an opinion might find there is more to the situation than they first realized.

it's my experience that if that reflects your true intentions it is not the way you tend to come across on many topics -- and i think you know that. you often make your commentary in a way that implies it is a more broad truth. gsteinb called you out for it; you're quick to point it out in others but not so quick to recognize it in yourself.

just something to consider....if it matters to you that others may not get the points in the way you intend to convey them. i suspect your style is pretty refined/intentional, though.
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Old 10-30-14, 11:25 AM
  #631  
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Originally Posted by Ygduf
I would invite you to follow that conversation backwards. I didn't start it, I answered a question, asked one totally sincere question, and inferred that when the functional difference (again, in the way I use them) between two options is a start/stop button (which I didn't even know was an optional thing), a 400% price difference is something I consider.

I'm like Zues with those lightning bolts of judgment, if answering questions posed to me is throwing lightning bolts of judgment. I guess. Anyway, for real, no mas.
yes....i'm curious like gsteinb...what's the 400% price difference?

what is the cost of a dura ace chainring at retail?

when one reads the thread backwards, as you suggest, it's easy to tell that you selectively picked out a detail ("saving 1/100th of a second with a button press") but intentionally ignored the bigger issue (potential for users of a device (like garmin and possibly pioneer) that requires one to press start in order to record data that it is displaying), then held up an out-of-context price as a way to express that something has less value than the retail cost.

the discussion was really about design features and less about brands, but you took it there and introduced costs.

we know you're very smart, but other readers are smart too and can tell what is going on with your posts. i'm not very smart and it's not that hard.
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Old 10-30-14, 11:30 AM
  #632  
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Originally Posted by Ygduf

I didn't mean to discourage anyone from sharing his/her opinion (it had already been shared, anyway), just wanted to agree with him and let him know that he'd get pages of differing opinions and that he shouldn't worry about it or feel like he had to justify his.
Originally Posted by tetonrider
a forum's for discussion. it's not up to you (or anyone) to absolve mike of a need to "justify" his situation.
I am being ridiculously cautious with what I write right now and you think I believe it's up to me to absolve someone of something? That's not at all what I wrote.


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Old 10-30-14, 11:30 AM
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Originally Posted by globecanvas
Anybody using one of those new sram cx1 clutch RD thingies?
i've ridden one. watchu looking for?

if you're a lover of double-tap, then there's value to it. if you prefer shimano ergonomics, get a shimano MTB RD (10- or 11-speed mechanical are available; di2 available in the near future).

a clutch is valuable, but if this is for your crux and you might ride/race in mud, i'd be hesitant to skip out on the outer guard. a clutch won't stop a mud-caked chain from derailing, and narrow-wide rings won't prevent that, either. (wolf tooth specifically talks about this; it's true for other rings but they don't bring it up.)

the clutch absolutely DOES quiet things down / reduce chainslap (meaningful mostly for MTBs, but can also help if one is not so careful about slamming their bike to the ground after running some barriers). in theory, more tension adds more friction (wonder how much it amounts to).... but the cost of a derailed chain in a race is high.
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Old 10-30-14, 11:31 AM
  #634  
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Originally Posted by Ygduf
I am being ridiculously cautious with what I write right now and you think I believe it's up to me to absolve someone of something? That's not at all what I wrote.


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nah, our opinions are informed based on years of reading your posts. it's no single thing. it's easy to see if you could step back from yourself. no biggie--gary nailed it earlier.
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Old 10-30-14, 11:36 AM
  #635  
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Originally Posted by tetonrider
if you're a lover of double-tap, then there's value to it. if you prefer shimano ergonomics, get a shimano MTB RD
I have a lot of trouble wading through the Shimano product offerings. Do you happen to know what their models are called for short cage clutched MTB RDs? And I assume any will work with road shifters?
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Old 10-30-14, 11:45 AM
  #636  
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Originally Posted by Ygduf
That's not at all what I wrote.


Originally Posted by tetonrider
nah, our opinions are informed based on years of reading your posts. it's no single thing. it's easy to see if you could step back from yourself. no biggie--gary nailed it earlier.
Man, if you don't see that if you read what I didn't write, change is impossible. I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt here. I regret mentioning SRM price. I should have known that would offend you. I literally, before your post, did not know that start/stop was an issue for anyone or that there was an alternative to it. What more do you want can I say?

I mean, for reals, what more can I do? Having you put words in my mouth is super frustrating, but, we know the other route where I egg you on and you post a bunch of times in a row and I really enjoy it, but no one else does. Maybe you the least, right? So let's just not do that. I'm being sincere. Please, not everything is an attack.

You care FAR more than I do about the second-to-second accuracy of your data. That's great. I look at the zoomed-out trend of things and if I have a little day-to-day shift of numbers it doesn't impact what I care about. Your way is good for you. My way is good for me. It's OK!

****, people seem to like your way, probably even more than mine. Be happy.
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Old 10-30-14, 11:49 AM
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Originally Posted by globecanvas
I have a lot of trouble wading through the Shimano product offerings. Do you happen to know what their models are called for short cage clutched MTB RDs? And I assume any will work with road shifters?
are you talking 10- or 11-speed?

most (i'd say "all" but there is probably one example to the contrary) shimano MTB RDs have been clutch models for some time. started with XTR like 4, 5 years ago. anyway, the point is if you get an XTR or XT shimano MTB RD it will be a clutch model. if you walked into a shop and grunted "10-speed shimano MTB derailleur" whatever they handed you would very likely match what you need.

so...... XTR (aka "m980") or XT ("m780") will be fine for 10-speed.

if 11's your game, then you need XTR ("m9000") or XTR di2 ("m9050"). my 11s RDs just arrived this morning but won't have distribution in the US for a little while. XT's not (yet) an option for 11s MTB. di2 is likely to be early 2015 before you can really get it. if you really need a mechanical shimano 11s MTB RD, let me know and maybe i can spare one of these.

i don't think short cage exists for a shimano MTB RD these days. you want the "GS" (not "SGS") version.

so.......

10s less expensive: RD-M780-GS
10s more expensive: RD-M980-GS
11s mech: RD-M9000-GS
11s electronic: RD-M9050-GS

electronic is definitely mix and match between road shifters and MTB rd, per shimano. i haven't tested the mechanical cross-compatibility, but 11s cassettes are all the same width so i would expect that the pull ratio is the same. not certain for 10s but i suspect the info is out there; i think there were people slapping on the shimano RD to handle a 32T cog for stuff like the everest challenge. (a couple years ago i found that a short-cage road RD could handle 32T despite being spec'ed for 27T max, with a slight modification.)
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Old 10-30-14, 12:14 PM
  #638  
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Originally Posted by Ygduf
Man, if you don't see that if you read what I didn't write, change is impossible. I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt here. I regret mentioning SRM price. I should have known that would offend you. I literally, before your post, did not know that start/stop was an issue for anyone or that there was an alternative to it. What more do you want can I say?
fudgy, in my posts i pretty clearly said that it's about data loss, not about a 1/100th second delay. you know what you pulled out to then intentionally contrast with an out-of-context cost. you're not dumb. i'd have more respect for you if you just own up to it.

i'm not at all offended by mentioning of SRM price. why would i be? i don't set prices for things, i just help people get them for as low a price as they can. it doesn't affect me in any material way. whatever notion you have about me in that respect is misguided, but it doesn't matter.

i find it interesting that you get mad at people reading for making an assumption about you, but you fail to realize you do the same quite often (multiple times in a matter of posts). you reading tone into my comments about price says more about you than me.

Originally Posted by Ygduf
I mean, for reals, what more can I do? Having you put words in my mouth is super frustrating, but, we know the other route where I egg you on and you post a bunch of times in a row and I really enjoy it, but no one else does. Maybe you the least, right? So let's just not do that. I'm being sincere. Please, not everything is an attack.
again, you egging me on in the past (which was just plain douchy behavior on your part, as you know) never annoyed me to the level you think it did. of course, it's immature behavior on your part and ultimately just embarrassing & annoying for EVERYONE. i think it made it more fun for you to imagine someone else is very invested. that's cool as a game. i'm here (less frequently than you, admittedly) for the discussion.

i only mention this because you're now getting upset about someone making an assumption about you.

once again, gsteinb's post nailed it on the topic--what's ok for you is not really ok when it's turned around.

i'm sorry you are "super frustrated." i guess i can only say to you don't expect to change a pattern you built up over many years in a post, in a day, or in a few weeks. if you've changed, be content that you're in it for the long-haul (and be content your behavior is not destroying open discussion on yet another forum). in the past you've intentionally added lots of noise for the sake of hearing your own voice..how about more signal?

i appreciate that you say you are sincere now; i do. (as much as i could care about your sincerity, that is.) but what i respect is contribution to a discussion. the good news is that i don't need to respect you. i can't say if that matters to you (i'd wager you'd say it doesn't), so all is good.

i DO think you are intelligent enough to not want to $hit in another place where you spend a bunch of time, so you're a bit smarter this time around. also, the mods are less tolerant of that stuff here.

Originally Posted by fudgy
You care FAR more than I do about the second-to-second accuracy of your data. That's great. I look at the zoomed-out trend of things and if I have a little day-to-day shift of numbers it doesn't impact what I care about. Your way is good for you. My way is good for me. It's OK!

****, people seem to like your way, probably even more than mine. Be happy.
again, you have seem to think you know more about others than you really do. i let incorrect psychoanalytic comments about me (to alaska mike) slide earlier in this thread. me having an interest in open dialogue and exchange of facts does not translate to me caring which path they choose. it neither makes me happy or sad when someone makes a purchase that matches their needs. it DOES make me sad when someone makes a purchase before having all the facts, just because i don't like to see wasted money, whether that's $800 or $3000. i've talked people OUT of SRMs, by the way, but you wouldn't know that. sometimes you know less than you think you do.

if you state things in that way ("my way is good for me"), there's no real issue, but in this very thread you DO tend to state things in a way that implies your needs are that of everyone. giving you the benefit of the doubt, it's because you simply don't know things like speed from GPS is not suitable for using a power meter for aero testing. the downside is you are quite vocal, if uninformed, about some of these things, and by speaking in a way that has more broad implications ("XYZ has no value because i don't value it"--i realize that's not a direct quote, but it mirrors the spirit of many of your posts) you create false impressions for others.
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Old 10-30-14, 12:26 PM
  #639  
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God, stop already.
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Old 10-30-14, 12:29 PM
  #640  
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Originally Posted by globecanvas
God, stop already.
I'll be here when you need me.

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Old 10-30-14, 01:19 PM
  #641  
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Originally Posted by Ygduf
I'll be here when you need me.

lololol
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my race videos
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Old 10-30-14, 01:34 PM
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is just bikes and bike stuffs afterall
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Old 10-30-14, 01:44 PM
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Old 10-30-14, 01:58 PM
  #644  
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Well if it's worth anything the pc8 can use gps, a speed sensor or both.
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Old 10-30-14, 02:31 PM
  #645  
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Originally Posted by tetonrider
are you talking 10- or 11-speed?

most (i'd say "all" but there is probably one example to the contrary) shimano MTB RDs have been clutch models for some time.
Thanks, great info, hard to find in a summary anywhere else. This is for 10 speed. So I'll decide between the XTR or the CX1. Looks like XTR is cheaper but I don't need all that cage, and I do like idea behind the 12-tooth pulley on the CX1.
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Old 10-30-14, 02:39 PM
  #646  
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Originally Posted by globecanvas
Thanks, great info, hard to find in a summary anywhere else. This is for 10 speed. So I'll decide between the XTR or the CX1. Looks like XTR is cheaper but I don't need all that cage, and I do like idea behind the 12-tooth pulley on the CX1.
your timing is interesting. i just pulled an RD-M9000-GS out of the wrapper 5 minutes ago. i have some 10s XTR MTB parts i will be selling whenever i get around to it. hadn't had any urgency and was waiting for this RD to arrive.

if you find you're interested in an RD-M980 and it helps you, hit me up.

a larger pulley has marginally less friction, all else equal. for me, i'd let the ergonomics of the shifter decide the RD choice as i don't think one will experience any difference in RD while on the bike and we interact with the shifters constantly.

i know you do some really big rides on your CX rig, so perhaps the ability for the RD to handle 36T cogs could be an advantage in running 1x? instead of swapping rings or switching between a double and a single, leaving your 40T but selectively dropping in an 11-36 could be nice. XX 11-36 is light, too...~185 grams. that's lighter than DA7900 11-28.

(i've got XX 11-36 and 11-32s, 10s...they're great cassettes. the new shimano 11s MTB 11-40 is much heavier (~330g), which offsets the gain from dropping a ring and a shifter.)
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Old 10-30-14, 02:43 PM
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Originally Posted by rkwaki
Well if it's worth anything the pc8 can use gps, a speed sensor or both.
will be nice to have the option for GPS. also nice to have the ability to turn it off if battery life is an issue.

i'm looking forward to bike profiles. i hope they work properly. (on many garmins in practice switching profiles would require a restart.) i'm used to the pairing-sensor thing when switching bikes but it would be nice to put an end to it.

cool to get ride of the speed sensor for a number of reasons (less weight, one less thing with a battery, less to worry about when swapping wheels or getting a neutral wheel), but still a few practical field-testing scenarios where GPS isn't quite good enough.
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Old 10-30-14, 09:55 PM
  #648  
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Old 10-30-14, 09:56 PM
  #649  
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so I heard a good aero helmet is more energy saving than aero wheels or frame.
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Old 10-30-14, 11:24 PM
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Originally Posted by spectastic
so I heard a good aero helmet is more energy saving than aero wheels or frame.
In my testing, an ok aero helmet can reduce drag by about 150g vs a road helmet. The right aero helmet can be another 150g reduction in drag. That is huge. Wheels can have a big impact but are generally more expensive in $/g of drag. A frame is about the worst value IF one already has a decent frame that allows you to get into a good position.
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