grolby

No, seriously, no one* sets up their bike differently for crits and road races anymore. I do more crits than road races, but my bike is not set up "for crits." It is set up for racing. And to the extent that TdF racers use different setups for flat versus mountain stages, this is about aerodynamics versus weight, not really anything to do with geometry.

*To a first approximation. No doubt you can still find old Masters racers who have different road and crit bikes with distinct setups, but these days switching between different fits for different races isn't seen as a smart thing to do.

gsteinb

You didn't say set up different. You said characteristics of the bike. A given bike pops out of roughly five molds based on size.

shovelhd

For production, not custom carbon, this is true. Today the major manufacturers design and have produced a limited set of road frame geometries, not including TT. Some examples:

Standard road - compact, semi compact, or mostly square - Tarmac, F-Series, Z-Series, Evo
Aero road - AR-Series, Propel, Venge
Comfort road - Roubaix, Defy, Synapse
Cross - Crux, FX, SuperX
Woman-specific - ZW-Series, Supersix Evo Womens, Envie

Some manufacturers offer permutations in between, like Giant, a massive manufacturer who can afford to do that. However, I see no engineering focused on criterium versus road race road bikes. It just doesn't happen anymore. Now Pro Tour pros may get a special bike for Paris-Roubaix but it is not a production model. We're talking about a bike that anyone can buy here, not a custom.

Today's production carbon bikes are all about compromise. Some geometries are more aggressive than others. Sometimes, the closer the bike is to the top of the line, i.e. something a pro would race, the twitchier the geometry can be, but so much of how a bike handles depends on the rider's fit and weight distribution. It's just too much of a generalization to categorize today's production carbon bikes as best for crits over road races.

Doge

Breaking can be a great way to win a crit. Get to the front break before with the purpose of slowing the group down, then jump, while they are breaking. Of course everyone will be slower, they will be slower still.

UmneyDurak

Assuming you can take the corner without slowing down, sure. Even Giro and San Rafael you can rail through them, just you know don't apex early. Otherwise hello guardrail!

waterrockets 

Trail braking is to braking-before-the-corner as calculus is to subtraction. If braking as late as possible is faster (because you're going fast before you brake), then braking continuously, only slowing the amount needed at that time, is even faster. It's the continuous sum of braking late for an infinitely small portion of the corner, not for the whole thing at once.

Halfway through trail braking, you're still carrying 50% of the speed you'll lose to braking. If you brake before the corner, all of that speed was lost before you even started.

wphamilton

I've got to say that I really like this description which works as a metaphor even though it literally describes the calculus.

It follows that small errors would add up quickly, so you've got to be pretty facile at it to gain the advantage. (not that I'd know - my trail breaking errors are big to begin with)

Creakyknees

I always thought "trail braking" meant to drag the rear brake slightly while turning, therefore putting more weight on the front for better handling.

I think that's different from the discussion of when and how much to brake - which in a pack you don't get to choose anyway.

mattm

Why wouldn't they just go around you??

gsteinb

Because they'd be too busy trying to figure out the spelling.

UmneyDurak

Why did you quote me? I am not saying anything that would contradict it. Just making a joke. Although my second sentence isn't phrased correctly, and I removed it after you quoted me.

Ygduf

I prefer trial braking, which I do every ride just to make sure my calipers are closed.

grolby

Yeah, "trail braking" is a terrible term. I'm not sure what it sounds like it means ("trail-off," maybe?), but it sure doesn't sound like what it actually means. I'm not sure what the alternative would be, though. Apex braking?

I still don't get why such a big deal is made of trail braking. The novice's instinct will be to continue braking through a turn, if it is downhill anyway, which is actually most of the way there. The main distinction between the behavior of a novice and "trail braking" as it is commonly meant is that the novice will brake way earlier and have scrubbed much more speed - they are braking to reduce and control speed through the turn, whereas someone who would actually call what they are doing "trail braking" is braking to preserve speed. It's an important difference, but as skill develops and priorities change, it seems easier to get from Point A to Point B directly instead of having this intermediate point where everyone is told to brake entirely before the turn. But I don't know.

mattm

Ok, now I've seen it all!

Doge

They may not have space. Then, they might, and then might lose their line. It causes a reaction and opportunity to jump. It doesn't have to even be a brake - even a coast early that causes them to let of their power.
It is a technique only and ill applied is dangerous. Applied correctly it is a great way to get the jump on the opponent.

waterrockets 

I got lucky on that one

I just want to talk. I don't care who gets hurt in the process.

mattm

bs.

what category are you racing in that this even comes close to working?

better yet, what universe?

hack

singletrack crits

waterrockets 

Yeah, unless it's one of those crit corners at the bottom of a hill, there's always some room. Brake-checking the pack on entry to such a corner is going to get your ass kicked. Slow down before it and you'll get swarmed.

The only way I can use a crit corner to my advantage is to launch hard about 25m before it from about 10 back, leaving the front with no acceleration option until exit (assuming it's sharp enough to force coasting or at least prevent sprinting). Then I coast through faster than they do.

Folks like Racer Ex can find about 5 seconds per lap, just from cornering technique. That's not me. For me, trail braking is a developing skill, for the last 20 years, and I'm no good at it yet. I get around corners ok though.

gsteinb

It's a good way to give someone an excuse to put you into a curb.

UmneyDurak

gsteinb

I don't understand. You're just making things up to support a stupid point.

Doge

Is it you don't understand the my description or do you just disagree with it?
The point (you call stupid) is slowing before a corner so you can accelerate out of it.

gsteinb

Unless that's you there's nothing to indicate that the rider intentionally slows as a tactic before the turn. One slows in a turn like that anyway. Some more than others, some less. The rider behind can lose the wheel for a variety of cornering inadequacies. I can open a gap in a corner simply by going faster than the rider behind is comfortable. Intentionally brake checking is stupid and dangerous. The gearing equation is irrelevant depending on the speed and length of the sprint. In that case, and from the two hole one doesn't need a massive gear to win what is a relatively short finish straight.

Doge

[Is it you don't understand the my description or do you just disagree with it?
The point (you call stupid) is slowing before a corner so you can accelerate out of it gapping your opponents.

This works when there is a corner fairly close to the finish and works when there is less space and also where a rider may not have the top speed of another rider.