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Road race cornering

Old 08-05-14, 03:56 PM
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remove brakes. figure it out. countersteer or something.
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Old 08-05-14, 07:06 PM
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Originally Posted by mattm
Never heard of trail braking - if I understand it it means braking coming into the turn, and while turning?
Basically, yes. It refers specifically to gradually letting releasing the brakes through turn-in and during the turn, up to as late as the apex of the turn. It's not the most descriptive of terms.

Originally Posted by mattm
Seems like not braking is the best way to maximize speed through a turn to me...
You have much to learn.

More seriously, it depends on the turn (duh).

Originally Posted by CharlyAlfaRomeo
The amount of braking is not an option but the distance it's achieved is. All other things being equal if it takes me 50' to brake from 30 mph to 15 and it takes you 75' I should be able to beat you through the turn provided I start braking after you do.

On the topic of trail braking I don't know people here that well and didn't want to complicate things. For someone who thinks they're having trouble with specific types of corners I didn't want to add any more variables to the equation.

I must say that I don't trail brake much on my bicycle but it's the only way to fly when I'm flogging my SV650!
Short of backing off before the turn as waterrockets suggested, I don't think beating people through the turn is critical most of the time (obviously there are times when it could matter) and, more to the point, not really the issue at hand.

I don't know, I guess if it's going to get complicated to the point of discussing cornering technique, it might as well be the best possible advice. "Do all braking before turning in," is a pernicious piece of misinformation that has too firm a foothold in the cycling world as it is. I can only assume that the intent is to prevent riders from braking hard in the middle of a turn. Which, first of all, I don't think most people are that inclined to do, anyway. And second of all, saying "don't brake while turning" seems much more likely to leave a novice in the middle of a turn finding that they went in too hot and they've either got to hold on for dear life and pray, panic and grab a handful of brake anyway, or go off the road. The solution that people with this experience come to is to brake waaaaaaay too early so that they don't pick up too much speed while turning and not braking. And the result is that this cornering advice, intended to help people get through turns faster, doesn't help them get through turns faster.

So if we're really going to go down the road of cornering technique advice, we might as well not be tentative about it. Though, as I was saying, I don't really think that's the issue here.
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Old 08-05-14, 07:49 PM
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Part of the issue here that needs mentioning is which category are you racing in ? Cat 5 and Cat 4 will predominantly have erratic pack motion executing any turn, some will be quite capable of handling any turn in a flowing manner. Other's will just fight and try to find the right approach at the worst possible time. Which is while negotiating a turn. Regardless it only takes one or two riders to alter the flow thru a turn and force those behind to adjust to a different and very possibly worse line. If you find yourself behind such riders than it's all hands on deck ( so to speak ).

In a 1-3 race, this will likely not be the rule but rather a rare exception. In a Pro 1-3 race, there it will be smooth transitions thru each turn. The difference being that in these cats, everyone understands that flowing effortlessly is the way.
Having to constantly regain lost ground after each corner means there won' be much left near the finish. Doesn't seem like much those first few corners, but they will tax your reserves.
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Old 08-05-14, 09:44 PM
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Originally Posted by grolby
I don't think beating people through the turn is critical most of the time (obviously there are times when it could matter) and, more to the point, not really the issue at hand.
You're missing my point completely and maybe I'm not being clear.

He has a problem with gaps opening up while cornering on descents. Part of that problem may be that he begins braking much sooner but not as forcefully as other racers who decelerate more confidently.

Explained a little differently: if he's riding on someone's wheel at 40 MPH and begins braking 75 feet from the corner to get down to 20 MPH while the rider ahead doesn't begin to brake for another 20 feet to achieve the same deceleration a gap will open.

Also I never said not to brake in corners, just that getting it done first may help him.

As a side note I just came back from a ride where I realized I do trail brake on my bicycle in corners taken near the limit.

Last edited by CharlyAlfaRomeo; 08-05-14 at 09:50 PM.
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Old 08-06-14, 12:51 AM
  #30  
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Originally Posted by grolby
Basically, yes. It refers specifically to gradually letting releasing the brakes through turn-in and during the turn, up to as late as the apex of the turn. It's not the most descriptive of terms.



You have much to learn.

More seriously, it depends on the turn (duh).



Short of backing off before the turn as waterrockets suggested, I don't think beating people through the turn is critical most of the time (obviously there are times when it could matter) and, more to the point, not really the issue at hand.

I don't know, I guess if it's going to get complicated to the point of discussing cornering technique, it might as well be the best possible advice. "Do all braking before turning in," is a pernicious piece of misinformation that has too firm a foothold in the cycling world as it is. I can only assume that the intent is to prevent riders from braking hard in the middle of a turn. Which, first of all, I don't think most people are that inclined to do, anyway. And second of all, saying "don't brake while turning" seems much more likely to leave a novice in the middle of a turn finding that they went in too hot and they've either got to hold on for dear life and pray, panic and grab a handful of brake anyway, or go off the road. The solution that people with this experience come to is to brake waaaaaaay too early so that they don't pick up too much speed while turning and not braking. And the result is that this cornering advice, intended to help people get through turns faster, doesn't help them get through turns faster.

So if we're really going to go down the road of cornering technique advice, we might as well not be tentative about it. Though, as I was saying, I don't really think that's the issue here.

The "do all the braking before the turn" is not advice given to go through the corner faster, but to do it safely. As lean angle increases traction available decreases (contact patch, direction of forces being applied). Using the brakes uses some of that traction. It takes experience and smoothness to trail brake. New riders don't have either. As the result that advice is given. Similar advice is given to motorcyclists as they start their riding, and if braking mid corner is necessary the advice is to stand up the bike, apply brakes, and then initiate another turn in. Of course a danger with that is target fixation. Instead of looking through the turn people start looking directly a head, and look that is where they go! A lot of crashes happen because rider gives up and picks a spot to crash. Instead of just relaxing, looking through the turn and going with it.

If the goal is to go through the corner the fastest way possible we also need to talk about lines and early apex, neutral, late apex.

Honestly there just too much crap on public roads to mess with trail braking. It's great for motorcycles on a track, but for bicycles it's not really needed. As I said just to much crap on the road, and bicycle tires are not as forgiving at motorcycle tires that are up to temps.

Last edited by UmneyDurak; 08-06-14 at 01:02 AM.
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Old 08-06-14, 07:03 AM
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I'm well aware that braking takes some share of the available traction, but I think that worry is overblown. We just aren't riding the limits of traction often enough for still having some brake on during turn in to be a concern - certainly this mythical inexperienced descender we're discussing won't be pushing the limits that hard. If anything, it's safer as it gives much better control of speed through turns on a descent. Releasing the brakes fully during a downhill corner is relinquishing control of acceleration due to gravity. I don't buy the argument that this is somehow better and safer for an inexperienced rider than riding the brakes through the apex of the turn. Very few, possibly none of the downhill crashes that I've seen on dry roads resulted from a loss of traction. Anyway, that's my take on it.
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Old 08-06-14, 07:35 AM
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Originally Posted by grolby
I'm well aware that braking takes some share of the available traction, but I think that worry is overblown.
I dunno. Something like 90% of the corner crash videos I see on here start with someone skating the rear wheel because they grabbed too much brake.

Granted, trail braking is faster, but it's more subtle, and some riders have demonstrated that they don't get it.
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Old 08-06-14, 07:46 AM
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Just a quick question. If you're braking for the same amount of time, down to the same speed at the apex, how does it make a difference in speed whether you do it early or during the corner? In my simplistic imagination the only difference is where the gap forms, if it does, and what lines you could choose. If we're disregarding the effect on traction. Is it simply because without trail braking you're coasting more? Explain please?
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Old 08-06-14, 08:10 AM
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Originally Posted by wphamilton
Just a quick question. If you're braking for the same amount of time, down to the same speed at the apex, how does it make a difference in speed whether you do it early or during the corner? In my simplistic imagination the only difference is where the gap forms, if it does, and what lines you could choose. If we're disregarding the effect on traction. Is it simply because without trail braking you're coasting more? Explain please?
On a motorcycle at least, trail braking gives you better control over the turn because the weight distributes more onto the front wheel. You can turn in and generally react much more quickly.

Having said that, it only takes one incident of breaking the front wheel loose on a bicycle to put you off of trail braking for a good long time But IMO it's far easier to redistribute weight to the front wheel on a bicycle than a motorcycle without using the brakes at all, just by getting your body forward, which is also a natural side effect of strong countersteering.

As shovelhd suggested, probably 90% of racers think they are above average at cornering, so threads like this turn into everybody giving advice to everybody else and it starts to seem sort of obnoxious. Having said that... this season alone I won 3 races entirely due to being able to rail the last corner, in one case putting a full second between me and a much stronger breakmate on a 120 degree turn in the rain. IMO it's all about weight distribution. You've got to get forward on the bike and aggressively weight the front wheel.

We are way past the scope of the OP question and into navelgazing mode at this point, so, sorry about that :/
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Old 08-06-14, 08:14 AM
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Originally Posted by wphamilton
Just a quick question. If you're braking for the same amount of time, down to the same speed at the apex, how does it make a difference in speed whether you do it early or during the corner? In my simplistic imagination the only difference is where the gap forms, if it does, and what lines you could choose. If we're disregarding the effect on traction. Is it simply because without trail braking you're coasting more? Explain please?
Before your weight shifts or after.
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Old 08-06-14, 09:57 AM
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Originally Posted by wphamilton
Just a quick question. If you're braking for the same amount of time, down to the same speed at the apex, how does it make a difference in speed whether you do it early or during the corner? In my simplistic imagination the only difference is where the gap forms, if it does, and what lines you could choose. If we're disregarding the effect on traction. Is it simply because without trail braking you're coasting more? Explain please?
The technical reason has already been given by people with more technical knowledge than I have. I happen to like trail braking primarily because it gives better control over speed through the corner, you can come through much closer to the limit of your comfort and ability without risking finding yourself with too much speed halfway through. In my opinion and in my experience, of course. I want to dispel any notion that I consider myself some kind of expert on this stuff.
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Old 08-06-14, 09:57 AM
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Originally Posted by wphamilton
Just a quick question. If you're braking for the same amount of time, down to the same speed at the apex, how does it make a difference in speed whether you do it early or during the corner? In my simplistic imagination the only difference is where the gap forms, if it does, and what lines you could choose. If we're disregarding the effect on traction. Is it simply because without trail braking you're coasting more? Explain please?
If late braking is faster, what's the latest you can brake? Well, that answer is going to involve trail braking. If you slow yourself enough initially so that you can take the hardest part of the corner at that speed, then the early part of the corner has you going too slowly.

This is where racers can get into trouble by assuming "if he can corner this fast, then I can corner this fast." If the rider in front is good attrail braking, and the rider behind assumes that they've entered the corner at a safe coasting speed, then there's going to be trouble when the 2nd rider grabs brakes during a freak-out. I imagine this happens a lot behind RX.
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Old 08-06-14, 10:23 AM
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Originally Posted by globecanvas
On a motorcycle at least, trail braking gives you better control over the turn because the weight distributes more onto the front wheel. You can turn in and generally react much more quickly.

Having said that, it only takes one incident of breaking the front wheel loose on a bicycle to put you off of trail braking for a good long time But IMO it's far easier to redistribute weight to the front wheel on a bicycle than a motorcycle without using the brakes at all, just by getting your body forward, which is also a natural side effect of strong countersteering.

As shovelhd suggested, probably 90% of racers think they are above average at cornering, so threads like this turn into everybody giving advice to everybody else and it starts to seem sort of obnoxious. Having said that... this season alone I won 3 races entirely due to being able to rail the last corner, in one case putting a full second between me and a much stronger breakmate on a 120 degree turn in the rain. IMO it's all about weight distribution. You've got to get forward on the bike and aggressively weight the front wheel.

We are way past the scope of the OP question and into navelgazing mode at this point, so, sorry about that :/

I fully agree with this and really think this is one reason why I have started pushing such a long stem for bike fit. So, I began to wonder if the ideal bike distribution is 50/50 (for setup). Can one turn and push weight to the front to the point where the back end slides out? I wonder as I consider moving to a zero setback seatpost if messing with the weight distribution is going to jack things up.

Not trying to derail the thread as I think it is pertinent. Obviously, one can put too much weight forward to the point of the back wheel sliding out or is that mitigated by having the outside leg locked out?
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Old 08-06-14, 10:29 AM
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and just to clear things up in my head. trail braking is done with the front brake. Most breaking should be done before the turn to scrub speed and then you let up the brake slowly until you are comfortable with your speed as you enter the apex before you hit your smallest angle lean?
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Old 08-06-14, 10:34 AM
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For me it's mindset. In a crit, I'm in focused cornering mode constantly. In a RR, I have to get into cornering mode every 20 minutes, making it harder.
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Old 08-06-14, 10:46 AM
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Originally Posted by aaronmcd
For me it's mindset. In a crit, I'm in focused cornering mode constantly. In a RR, I have to get into cornering mode every 20 minutes, making it harder.
Yeah. I really think it wraps back around to familiarity and frequency. I was reluctant to go down the road of discussing technique, because in road races you are so seldom actually trying to go through the corners as fast as possible. It's just not safe to push the limits on turns you don't know, which makes road races more forgiving for riders who are strong but have weaker technique. And is why I think the technical details of trail braking and entry speed and all that are kind of moot.

I think, to thechemist's point, if one really is having trouble with consistently losing position in the field through corners, that a) better bike fit, and b) some elementary study of cornering lines will yield big boosts in confidence. When I see riders on descents in road races who I desperately want to get in front of, their issue seems to be more a matter of confidence than anything else - it's not that they're slow through switchbacks, it's that they're hesitant and all over the place on every part of the downhill. It seriously does not help that the current trendy fit is to have the handlebars a meter below the saddle but horizontally quite close to the saddle. It's terrible for control, but people think they are faster this way. Getting the saddle in the right place and the handlebars appropriately positioned would probably make a big difference for some riders.
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Old 08-06-14, 11:41 AM
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Originally Posted by waterrockets
If late braking is faster, what's the latest you can brake? Well, that answer is going to involve trail braking. If you slow yourself enough initially so that you can take the hardest part of the corner at that speed, then the early part of the corner has you going too slowly.

This is where racers can get into trouble by assuming "if he can corner this fast, then I can corner this fast." If the rider in front is good at trail braking, and the rider behind assumes that they've entered the corner at a safe coasting speed, then there's going to be trouble when the 2nd rider grabs brakes during a freak-out. I imagine this happens a lot behind RX.
I see - you don't want to be going that minimum speed any longer than you need to. Even just a second earlier at half speed could put you several feet back.

Would you avoid doing this in a pace line, say in an established break?
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Old 08-07-14, 07:02 AM
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Originally Posted by grolby
Yeah. I really think it wraps back around to familiarity and frequency. I was reluctant to go down the road of discussing technique, because in road races you are so seldom actually trying to go through the corners as fast as possible. It's just not safe to push the limits on turns you don't know, which makes road races more forgiving.
But discussing technique is exactly the topic, or more to the point here lack of technique. I see much emphasis on maximizing the motor's performance but not a whole lot on figuring out how to ride that bike at the limits. It's not enough to just group ride and incorrectly assume this will give all the required technical expertise. Far from it, as a good majority in a group ride have not raced much if at all and for the most part are not great at bike handling when things become technical. Familiarity and frequency being two key words here. Familiarity refers to the bike you are on, do you know where those limits are ? if you don't then you should not only know those limits but be familiar enough that when pushing the envelope it becomes a calm reaction to regain control. This becomes frequency, as in getting out there on quiet back roads and working on getting to not only know those limits, but pushing beyond them and learning in the process how to control the situation.


Originally Posted by grolby
I think, to thechemist's point, if one really is having trouble with consistently losing position in the field through corners, that a) better bike fit, and b) some elementary study of cornering lines will yield big boosts in confidence. When I see riders on descents in road races who I desperately want to get in front of, their issue seems to be more a matter of confidence than anything else - it's not that they're slow through switchbacks, it's that they're hesitant and all over the place on every part of the downhill. It seriously does not help that the current trendy fit is to have the handlebars a meter below the saddle but horizontally quite close to the saddle. It's terrible for control, but people think they are faster this way. Getting the saddle in the right place and the handlebars appropriately positioned would probably make a big difference for some riders.
We may also be discussing two separate bike geometries here. A great Crit bike is not necessarily a great Road Racing bike. The former demands a very responsive almost twitchy handling characteristics as Crits demand constant quick adjustments of both line and speed. Not so much on the road bike which is much more about smooth transitions in speed, line and effort over a 2.5 to 4hr race. Crits being 75min. and all about drastic sudden changes.

This discussion is about not only technique but also what to do about those missing pieces of the puzzle.
Always seeking to ride with higher categories ( Pro's Cat 1's and 2's ) is a definite must, as it becomes obvious as to how they ride is based on efficiency. Case in point my own ski racings technical aspects in GS and SL always improved each time I was able to train with pro friends and/or former National team skiers. Same applies to bike racing.
To be able to go into a corner and without thinking about it just flow thru that corner ( for lack of a better description ) no matter the condition of surface or technical layout, is only possible with spending a lot of time practicing the variables.
A race is the worst time and place to be trying to figure out what to do. Mainly because a race is always in a state of flux. If you have to think about what to do at each corner then you really should not be racing ( yet ) Harsh, blunt, it is what it is. As I posted before, negotiating turns successfully in a race is about setup. Relating to who does what and when and why you want to be behind them or why you need to be ahead of them. Just this should be routine and so should the ability to see the corner / turn and pick the best line regardless of what the others are doing. This means that setting up yourself in the right place prior to that turn is critical. it may take an easy position change or it may require changing field position long before the turn is even in view..
If this is cryptic to some then it should be back to the drawing board..
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Old 08-07-14, 07:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Moyene Corniche

We may also be discussing two separate bike geometries here. A great Crit bike is not necessarily a great Road Racing bike. The former demands a very responsive almost twitchy handling characteristics as Crits demand constant quick adjustments of both line and speed. Not so much on the road bike which is much more about smooth transitions in speed, line and effort over a 2.5 to 4hr race. Crits being 75min. and all about drastic sudden changes.
You're dating yourself. Bikes are bikes now. I race crits on the same bike pros are doing stage races in europe on. So do you.
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Old 08-07-14, 08:26 AM
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I'm really not sure what you're getting at, Moyene. It's not even that I disagree with you, because I don't think I necessarily do. I wasn't talking about "motor" stuff, and it seems as though we are mostly talking about the same things.
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Old 08-07-14, 09:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Moyene Corniche
It's not enough to just group ride and incorrectly assume this will give all the required technical
If the goal is to win races, this is definitively untrue.
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Old 08-07-14, 10:34 AM
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Originally Posted by wphamilton
Would you avoid doing this in a pace line, say in an established break?
In a break, you're at the mercy of those with you. If someone is cornering above your ability, you'll have to make up a gap. If you're better, then you create a bit of a gap and reserve some energy by losing less speed. If you're faster and in the middle of the break, then you can pre-gap or deal with the acceleration. Mostly, you can just sit tight and follow the line of the guy in front of you as there's not so much accordion in a break.
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Old 08-07-14, 01:00 PM
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Originally Posted by gsteinb
You're dating yourself. Bikes are bikes now. I race crits on the same bike pros are doing stage races in europe on. So do you.
Not at all dating myself, Pros most certainly do use different setups / geometries depending on the type of race. I'm not referring to TT versus road either. Milan San Remo will find a different setup than say Tour of Flanders and either the Giro D'italia or Tour De France which will feature specialized setups for the flatter versus mountain stages.

No if you race primarily Crits, and your bike is going to be setup for that type of racing, it may just require a change of wheel sets and perhaps switch crank arm lengths and move the seat but in any case for the Road Race with fast long descents, at 50mph a bit of understeer is preferable to oversteer. So no regardless there are some attributes that need dialing in for either discipline.
You can race on one bike only with no changes whatsoever but it may not be the optimum.
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Old 08-07-14, 01:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Ygduf
If the goal is to win races, this is definitively untrue.
?? I don't get your reply
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Old 08-07-14, 01:05 PM
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Originally Posted by grolby
I'm really not sure what you're getting at, Moyene. It's not even that I disagree with you, because I don't think I necessarily do. I wasn't talking about "motor" stuff, and it seems as though we are mostly talking about the same things.
Nor was I, I just elaborated back to the OP's original post and the problem being understood as " I'm not sure what I should be doing in these turns to stay connected and not expend precious reserves..
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