HawkeyeCubs34

I feel this is an age old question, of which I have received many different opinions. Some have said the rider is all the matters while some say you MUST have the correct gear. I hypothesize the right answer is somewhere in between. I just wrapped up my rookie race season doing CAT 5 races. I got dropped from my first two races, but finished in the middle of the pack in the remaining, moving up a position or two and improving with each race.

I currently have a 2011 Schwinn Paramount 5 series. It was the only thing I could afford at the time of purchase, and was aware of the fact that it was considered an entry level bike. Since I've had it, I upgraded the rear wheel to a Mavic Cosmic Elite (only because the original rear wheel busted) and lightened the rear cassette a wee bit. I always have the cheapest/lowest end bike in races, but I am doing fine for a beginner with reasonable improvement in each race.

Overall, I am conflicted between thinking "I need to improve myself more before I upgrade" and "my bike is holding me back." I am CAT 5 now, with the goal to upgrade (isn't it everyone's?). Do I stand a chance with this bike to move up?

Creatre

You'll upgrade with that bike no problem if you have the engine. I used a bikes direct bike my first year as a cat 5 and a bike built around a $300 aluminum frame from cat 4 to cat 2.

However, you may enjoy cycling more or stay motivated if you get a new bike. As much as cyclists like putting performance on everything, people just like new stuff. And if you can afford that new stuff and keeps you around then go for it. If you can't really afford it, then don't pressure yourself into getting it because you think you'll go from back of the back to front of the pack. Yeah you'll feel a little difference. But it's not a magical worker that gets you to cat1 overnight.

grolby

Of course you can get out of Cat 5 on that bike. You simply need to finish ten races. You can also get out of Cat 4 on that bike, if you train and race well. And so on - it doesn't stop there. I started racing on a much older, much worse bike than that. You can race with practically any road bike, because the performance gains from a better bike are fairly marginal provided you are at least on equipment of reasonable quality and in good repair. If the hubs roll smoothly without binding and your shifting works reliably, the biggest difference will be in fitness and racecraft. The greatest gains to be made with equipment are in fit and handling.

But of course there are benefits to getting lighter, more aerodynamic and lower-resistance equipment. They are marginal, but they are real, and they add up. How much you choose to spend on those advantages isn't something other people can readily advise you on, as it will depend upon your overall financial situation, how much of a priority cycling is for you, OCD, and other things that you are in a better position to know than anyone else. The best we can do is tell you where the most bang-for-buck lies in terms for where you can improve your performance the most effectively. In no particular order, these are: bike fit, contact point comfort (shoes, pedals, saddle, handebars), tires and tubes. If you want to make your bike faster but don't want to spend lots of money, those are the first things you should be looking at.

furiousferret

Its hard to tell, but a well built cheap bike isn't going to cost you minutes, only a few seconds. These days many intro bikes are built really well, so unless someone else who rides a lot of bikes tests it out, we really can't give a definitive answer. I've been looking for a cheap alternative for my nephew and have come to the realization, that a lot of the cheap products like Microshift, Motobecane, and Nashbar have some good quality stuff for the price.

hubcyclist

I'm thinking of signing up for my first race in Oct and I have a mid 90's raleigh. When I suck (which i will), it'll only be due to my lack of fitness and unstructured training, not because I ride a nearly 20 year old bike. The bike is just a tool.

topflightpro

The bike is not going to hold you back, unless it really doesn't fit you.

If you want to upgrade, go for it. It might make you like your bike better, or it might improve your fit or comfort - all of which are fine reasons to upgrade.

Ygduf

The bike is a tool, but good chefs like fancy knives and woodworkers sharp chisels.

hubcyclist

I agree, to build on the analogy, musicians love good instruments and photogs good glass, but then you've got someone like Jack White make great music out of a crappy guitar when I couldn't even make the nicest les paul sound good! (well, that's subjective, I like the White Stripes)

My bike will get the job done, but I wouldn't say no to a new bike!

Ygduf

^^ truth. is the mid-90s rig downtube shifters? That would be a little bit of a drawback, I guess unless you're super used to and good with them.

hubcyclist

105 components all over (STI shifters) BikePedia with the 53-42 crankset, I'll dominate, I'm sure (as long as I'm not asked to climb anything substantial).

caloso

The only equipment that I think would put you at a serious disadvantage would be downtube shifters and platform pedals. If the wheels spin, the gears shift, and the brakes stop, that's really all you need.

tctdvm

I've done a lot of Rolling resistance and Aero testing over the last few years on Vastly different types of bikes.
What I've learned that the single most important thing to fix first, is the rubber on your bike.
The difference between a top tier racing tire (Vittoria Corsa CX) with latex tubes and a mid level racing tire like a Mich Pro 3 with thick butyl tubes is about a season's worth of training. ~8-12 watts. Gatorskins are even worse.
even the Conti 4Ks is going to cost a couple watts.
certainly, for races (I use them all the time cept for on-the-road spares) latex tubes will get you the most for your money. ~$15 vs $10 (for 'fast' butyl). If you're putting super thick $3 tubes in, you should notice the difference.

sub-performance hubs might be costing you. I good set of wheels could be a noticeable upgrade. They don't need to be crazy light, but lower spoke count will help with aero.

If you have really bad rubber and/or bad bearings, you'll have a hard time getting into the 20+ mph range. Good rubber and wheels should let you hold 22mph at tempo.
At any rate, wheels, tires and tubes should be the first thing to optimize.

Next is Aero.
That's the real issue.

I ride an older Trek5200 and a recumbent. They both use the same Powertap wheelset.
I've measured my CdA on both bikes to be .2 and .34 (hoods)
to hold 24 mph on the bent requires a little less than 200 watts. To do 24 on the Trek on the hoods requires 300 watts.
I realize that you're not going be able to subtract .14 off of your CdA, but even .04 will save you 25 watts at 24mph.

(for comparison, that .14 reduction in wind resistance between my 2 bikes is worth almost 10lbs on a 5% climb. ~10 watts.)


The bottom line is: Training to be comfortable holding a MUCH more aggressive, aero position on your bike will save you several years of training. Which is why I say fix the wheels and rubber first. Cuz that's easy and cheap.

So as far as a new bike goes, a racing specific frame and fit may make that 'extreme aero position you can't seem to stay in on your current bike', possible.
Certainly worth beginning to do some test rides here and there and see if you find a better fit that lets you ride with in a more horizontal position.


Even when drafting, if you train to get small, you can drop almost a full zone from sitting up.

T

HawkeyeCubs34

Thanks for the tips, T! I attached a picture of my bike as it is today (clicking on it will enlarge the photo greatly, although you may already know that). I'll be more specific about the upgrades. As mentioned the original rear wheel busted, so I have a Mavic Cosmic Elite on the back. The original front wheel which is still in tact has a pretty low spoke count as you can see. It's also a very light rim so I feel no need to replace that. The original rear cassette was a SRAM PG 1050. I kept that on a crappy wheel dedicated to an indoor trainer. I since upgraded to a SRAM PG 1070 rear cassette. I felt the difference in my hands in the store, and it felt substantial.

In terms of the treads, I kept the original tread that came on the Mavic rim. For the front (and I am trying to remember correctly). I believe the tread was a Clement Strata LGG. I told the person working at the shop that I race and do fast road cycling, and that is what he recommended. It was about $40.

The pedals are kind of crummy and could be upgraded. They are Forte brand, which is the cheapest at Performance Bike. They are doing me OK but don't seem very durable. Already had one set break but got the same ones for free since they are still under warranty.

It seems per the many comments here that while a new bike can help marginally. I have been improving at a the rate I should be with each race, so at this time it seems I should worry more about improving myself than spending lots money on a new bike. Six more CAT 5 races and I can move up to 4. I'll reassess once I get there.

tctdvm

That doesn't look too bad.
I actually did a 150 mile relay race last summer on my vintage 1990 Trek ST600 (downtubs).
Came in 1st, actually. Although the secret there was to secure a spot on the team with the 2 fastest guys.
Really, I should say, "I was on the winning team". I did my best to give the other teams a chance to win.



Tires:
https://www.biketechreview.com/tires_...sting_rev9.pdf

Pick something off of the first page if you can :-)

but, nearly everyone I know that races, races with Conti GP4Ks (the "s" is REALLY important).
I love Vitoria and Veloflex Corsas myself.
Usually get about 4-4.5k miles. The only drawback with the latex is it's a little harder to install, so I don't do it on the road. And when you start getting cuts in the tire, the latex is supple enough to find it's way out and get a hole, where a butyl tube won't. That's why latex is faster.
I usually patch it and put it back so the patch is under the cut. If it's a big cut and the tires have life left, I'll put a little heavy galvanizing glue on it to seal it some.
I usually top off daily, but you can skip a day if you do 120psi. The next day it'll be down to about 100.

Pedals, cassettes, almost all components, aren't going to directly make you faster in any noticeable way.

T

carpediemracing 

FYI you can open the image yourself, right click on the image, copy the image address, then insert the URL of the image into the URL tab for inserting an image:


I've watched Cat 1-2 riders just demolish me while on bikes similar to yours (riding sponsor-equiped rigs). I'd joke with other that I was showing up with an all out race-rig (meaning aero tubular wheels really) and they didn't bother removing their saddlebag/etc after riding 30 miles to the race.

Overall the rider makes it happen. Fit is the most important thing and your bike screams "new rider" to me. As a rider gets more cycling fit they can start utilizing more muscle groups, distribute their weight more forward on the bike, etc. It's a moving target, adjusted for things like physical limitations etc.

However it's fun to play with the equipment as long as you understand that the equipment simply fills out the rider's overall "place in life". I'm sure I'll never be a good TT rider or climber - I thought I'd be a good climber when I started racing, then I dreamed about being a good time trialer. I never wanted to be a "sprinter" because they're just "lazy wheel suckers" but that's ironically the only thing I could do - it took me 6 years to realize/accept that I could sprint better than TT or climb. Get me a tricked out TT bike and I'll get beaten by 13 minutes in a 40k instead of 14 minutes (literally - my last 40k, way back when, I was 13 minutes slower than the winner and I had a full blown TT bike, skinsuit, aero helmet, everything). On the other hand I'll always have a jump. Any equipment I have that helps my jump does just that, it helps my jump. It doesn't give me my jump.

If I were your friend advising you I'd look into getting into a more aggressive position on the bike, based on the fact that you're a new racer. Look at a picture of yourself in a race. Is your chest exposed to the wind? Are you upright? Can you get lower? Compare your position to a pro. I understand, some of them are crazy low, but still, are you even in the same ballpark? Pros ride for a living - they're comfortable in their position for hours and hours at a time, more time than any of us mortals can imagine, so they're reasonably comfortable in those low positions.

Spend money on contact points - bar, saddle, pedals. You can transfer the bars/saddle/pedals so spend some money on them, you'll have them longer than you have your bike, at least that's the way it seems for me.

After that it'll cost money - power meter for training or if you like looking at charts (I'm the latter). Aero wheels (unless you're cutting a lot of weight off your wheels, like 1-2 lbs minimum, I wouldn't get similar function non-aero wheels; I also wouldn't get heavy aero wheels, based on my own experience with a similar aero but 3 lbs heavier set of wheels). The rest of the bike just replace stuff as it gets worn. Shifters, derailleurs, whatever. Cranks can make a difference but that's so minor it's more about feel than anything else. Brakes, just get good pads. Cassette? Get the right ratio, mid range so it doesn't wear too quickly. Chain? Okay, a nicer chain will last a bit longer.

gsteinb

lose the reflector.

tough to tell from the photo, but it looks like the saddle is slammed pretty far forward and nosed down, and the bars and hoods are pointed upwards, along with your stem being high. but short of seeing you on the bike it's just speculation. there are fairly typical positioning mistakes new riders make.

globecanvas

What set of wheels is 3 lbs heavier than another set of wheels?

Creatre

Dual disc wheelset? haha. 3lbs is like 1400g. I think my first box 32 spoke wheelset on my bikesdirect bike was about 2100g. 1400g less would be a 700g wheelset. Most super aero wheels won't even be close to being that heavy, nor would many people have a wheelset weighing in at 700g.

HawkeyeCubs34

Good call. I can remove the reflector. It is pretty superfluous since I use a light when cycling in the latter hours of the day. Since that picture I titled my seat upwards a bit at the advice of a cycling coach. Have not moved it forward though.

carpediemracing 

From my post on weights here. Remember that the 2010 HED wheels all used the same hubs, basically the same spokes (I never bothered to check spoke count but they are similar if not the same), and the cassettes are all close. Therefore it's tires+related and rims. The trainer skewer is 51g heavier than the 51g front skewer (I didn't weigh the rear skewer) so at most it's 1/10 lbs more weight for the rear Jets, both of which have trainer skewers on them. The Stinger 9 has the cheapest cassette I could find, a BBB $30-ish dollar Campy 10s compatible steel cassette. The Jet 9 has the Campy cassette with blue spacers, I think it's Centaur. It's not the cheapest cassette they sell, I don't think it's even the second cheapest. At any rate the Jet 9 has a nice cassette on it, it's not weighing a lot more than any of the other cassettes.

All weights are on the same scale, a digital bike scale.

"2010 HED Jet aero clinchers (with stock HED front skewer and trainer rear skewer)

Jet 6 front wheel, 1.71 kg / 3.77 lbs
Jet 9 rear wheel, 1.97 kg / 4.33 lbs (with 11-25 steel Campy Centaur? cassette)

2011-2012 HED Stinger 7/9 aero tubulars (with stock HED skewers)

Stinger 7 front wheel, 1.10 kg / 2.42 lbs
Stinger 9 rear wheel, 1.31 kg / 2.88 lbs (with 11-23 steel Miche or BBB cassette)

2010 HED Stinger 6 aero tubulars (with stock HED skewers)

Stinger 6 front wheel, 0.95 kg / 2.09 lbs
Stinger 6 rear wheel, 1.31 kg / 2.88 lbs (with 11-21 ti/steel Campy Record cassette)"

pecos

Don't make the same mistake I made when I asked myself the same question. Which was to sink a ton of money on nicer equipment without realizing the importance of proper training and aerodynamics. In that order.
I'd suggest you either get a coach, find an online coaching services, purchase a training plan geared towards your kind of racing, etc. That will go much farther than upgrading any single component or even to a bike costing 2K more.
The second most important thing you can do is get a bike fit by someone who knows. Are you short on money? Believe me when I tell you a $200 bike fit is better than spending a grand on equipment, if it's done by a knowledgeable person. And most likely after a good fit you will end up replacing some components anyway, like the stem, saddle, for instance.
About your bike: about the only thing I'd upgrade is a front wheel to match the rear. This is addition to what others have said -lose the reflector,level the saddle, etc etc.
I suspect you are overweight, even for the 5's. Please don't take that as an insult, it is just that your bike setup reminds me of my own when I raced at 215 lbs and still managing top 10-15 finishes but seeing my max HR almost everytime -that was 5 years ago, I can't punish my body like that, too old now! Are you riding on the drops for any amount of time during your training? If not, you are giving away a lot to the competition. Yo are most likely wasting a lot of energy overcoming wind resistance, energy that you could use to get to the front of the pack. The problem with getting aero is our big guts and our lack of flexibility. Therefore any changes to the bike that affect the fit should be gradual and small.

Good questions, sounds like you are keen on improving and that's very important. Wish you the best, glad you decided to race.

mike868y

logic isn't your strong suit, huh?

RR3

Good fit, good training, EPO, the best tires, and properly maintained bearings and chain should be the priorities.

nacler22

What's yours?

koolerb

I ride once in a while with a guy that is really strong. He's able to hang in pretty quick group rides on a single speed. Every time someone brings up equipment as route to getting faster he always says the same thing; "It's not the bike."