Go Back  Bike Forums > The Racer's Forum > "The 33"-Road Bike Racing
Reload this Page >

Crash avoidance instead of crash fear.

Notices
"The 33"-Road Bike Racing We set this forum up for our members to discuss their experiences in either pro or amateur racing, whether they are the big races, or even the small backyard races. Don't forget to update all the members with your own race results.

Crash avoidance instead of crash fear.

Old 02-23-15, 08:26 AM
  #1  
EventServices
Announcer
Thread Starter
 
EventServices's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Detroit's North Side.
Posts: 5,098

Bikes: More than I need, really.

Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 32 Post(s)
Liked 11 Times in 6 Posts
Crash avoidance instead of crash fear.

The other crash thread became stale and off topic, so I thought I'd kickstart a different conversation.

Everyone talks about crashing, but few ever talk about crash avoidance skills. If they do, they say something simplistic like "protect your front wheel". As if that's all it takes.

If you watch how the pack behaves, you can pretty much predict when/where a crash will occur. If you watch how other riders are moving in relation to everyone else, you can see it coming.

Watch a crash in a Cat I-II race. They're riding inches apart. One guy falls, everyone else misses him.
That same event in a Cat 4 race: They're riding a a few feet apart. One guy falls, takes down half the pack.

So obviously it's a skill that you can learn, otherwise the experienced guys would crash like bowling pins, too. Occasionally they do, epically, but 99 % of the time, it's one or two guys who tangle and go down.

Learn to be precise in your steering so that your reaction to something doesn't cause more damage.
Learn where to put yourself in the pack so that you're not at the mercy of squirrels.
Learn to look at the whole of the pack ahead of you and what movements foretell trouble. (i.e. side-to-side, heavy braking, speed changes)
Do some tumbling drills to practice rolling.
Do some bumping drills with other riders so that you don't freak out when it happens in the field.
Learn to counter-steer so that when you have to change your line you can do it incrementally. Inches vs feet. And you can change your line in the middle of a corner.

But to go into a race clutching your St. Peter's medallion isn't the way to do it.
EventServices is offline  
Old 02-23-15, 08:35 AM
  #2  
gsteinb
out walking the earth
 
gsteinb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Lake Placid, NY
Posts: 21,398
Mentioned: 71 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 891 Post(s)
Liked 693 Times in 320 Posts
Originally Posted by EventServices View Post
The other crash thread became stale and off topic, so I thought I'd kickstart a different conversation.

Everyone talks about crashing, but few ever talk about crash avoidance skills. If they do, they say something simplistic like "protect your front wheel". As if that's all it takes.

If you watch how the pack behaves, you can pretty much predict when/where a crash will occur. If you watch how other riders are moving in relation to everyone else, you can see it coming.

Watch a crash in a Cat I-II race. They're riding inches apart. One guy falls, everyone else misses him.
That same event in a Cat 4 race: They're riding a a few feet apart. One guy falls, takes down half the pack.

So obviously it's a skill that you can learn, otherwise the experienced guys would crash like bowling pins, too. Occasionally they do, epically, but 99 % of the time, it's one or two guys who tangle and go down.

Learn to be precise in your steering so that your reaction to something doesn't cause more damage.
Learn where to put yourself in the pack so that you're not at the mercy of squirrels.
Learn to look at the whole of the pack ahead of you and what movements foretell trouble. (i.e. side-to-side, heavy braking, speed changes)
Do some tumbling drills to practice rolling.
Do some bumping drills with other riders so that you don't freak out when it happens in the field.
Learn to counter-steer so that when you have to change your line you can do it incrementally. Inches vs feet. And you can change your line in the middle of a corner.

But to go into a race clutching your St. Peter's medallion isn't the way to do it.

no they don't
gsteinb is offline  
Old 02-23-15, 09:55 AM
  #3  
merlinextraligh
pan y agua
 
merlinextraligh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Jacksonville
Posts: 30,778

Bikes: Willier Zero 7; Merlin Extralight; Calfee Dragonfly tandem, Calfee Adventure tandem; Cervelo P2; Motebecane Ti Fly 29er; Motebecanne Phantom Cross; Schwinn Paramount Track bike

Mentioned: 15 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1135 Post(s)
Liked 264 Times in 143 Posts
^^ All great advice.

I'd add, ride with a relaxed upper body, so you can absorb getting bumped, and not over react to problems.

Tension from the fear of crashing causes physical tension which increases the odds of crashing.
__________________
You could fall off a cliff and die.
You could get lost and die.
You could hit a tree and die.
OR YOU COULD STAY HOME AND FALL OFF THE COUCH AND DIE.
merlinextraligh is offline  
Old 02-23-15, 10:19 AM
  #4  
furiousferret
Senior Member
 
furiousferret's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Redlands, CA
Posts: 6,276
Mentioned: 31 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 824 Post(s)
Liked 433 Times in 232 Posts
I think more about crashing before the race than during it. Outside of the final lap, I'm focused more on safely moving up the pack. A few times I'll avoid the middle altogether since you may have a few guys with bad lines that keep closing it out in each turn or just someone that isn't very smooth. I find this more in yearly crits like Redlands or Roger Millikan than the monthly series like Ontario or CBR.

Ontario I rarely feel the need to 'bug out' and ride on the outside, at Roger Millikan where you had cyclists showing up with pillows stuffed in their jersey (yes this happened) and visible fear in their eyes because they only do one crit a year I felt very uncomfortable (and a few people did take hospital trips that race).
furiousferret is offline  
Old 02-23-15, 10:54 AM
  #5  
Wesley36
Senior Member
 
Wesley36's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 1,001
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by furiousferret View Post
... cyclists showing up with pillows stuffed in their jersey (yes this happened)...
!!!!
Wesley36 is offline  
Old 02-23-15, 01:35 PM
  #6  
Silvercivic27
Senior Member
 
Silvercivic27's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Posts: 2,435

Bikes: Colnago, Cervelo, Scott

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 190 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Yeah, I'm not fat, it's pillows!
Silvercivic27 is offline  
Old 02-23-15, 01:49 PM
  #7  
topflightpro
Senior Member
 
topflightpro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 7,410
Mentioned: 54 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1795 Post(s)
Liked 577 Times in 361 Posts
Originally Posted by Silvercivic27 View Post
Yeah, I'm not fat, it's pillows!
topflightpro is offline  
Old 02-23-15, 03:18 PM
  #8  
aaronmcd
Senior Member
 
aaronmcd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: SF, CA
Posts: 3,462

Bikes: Cervelo S5, Marin Gestalt X11

Mentioned: 71 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 554 Post(s)
Liked 65 Times in 45 Posts
^ funny, I just showed that clip to my wife a couple days ago, when we were talking about the time I had to sleep in the same bed with another coach from the gym I worked at.
aaronmcd is offline  
Old 02-23-15, 03:25 PM
  #9  
save10
Arrogant Roadie Punk
 
save10's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: California
Posts: 2,353
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by EventServices View Post
T


That same event in a Cat 4 race: They're riding a a few feet apart. One guy falls, takes down half the pack.
https://hcphoto.smugmug.com/DBC-and-N...1571160_G8FJMr

the legendary bariani incident of 2010. i missed it by 2 minutes because i was chasing after dropping a chain
save10 is offline  
Old 02-23-15, 05:34 PM
  #10  
EventServices
Announcer
Thread Starter
 
EventServices's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Detroit's North Side.
Posts: 5,098

Bikes: More than I need, really.

Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 32 Post(s)
Liked 11 Times in 6 Posts
Originally Posted by gsteinb View Post
no they don't
Yep. You're right. That's part of the problem.
EventServices is offline  
Old 02-23-15, 05:37 PM
  #11  
Voodoo76
Blast from the Past
 
Voodoo76's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Schertz TX
Posts: 3,192

Bikes: Felt FR1, Ridley Excal, CAAD10, CAAD12, Felt DA, Dolan

Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 215 Post(s)
Liked 42 Times in 35 Posts
Relaxed upper body is a great tip! Understand that as goes your front wheel so go you. Learn who the "**** magnets" are, there are some riders who even if not sketchy themselves always find the crash, avoid them. And never race in Canada.
Voodoo76 is offline  
Old 02-23-15, 05:38 PM
  #12  
Ygduf
\_(ツ)_/
 
Ygduf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Redwood City, CA
Posts: 10,978

Bikes: aggressive agreement is what I ride.

Mentioned: 109 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 967 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 4 Times in 4 Posts
Originally Posted by EventServices View Post

Watch a crash in a Cat I-II race. They're riding inches apart. One guy falls, everyone else misses him.
I mean, to be fair your premise couldn't really be more wrong. I was going to post a picture, but didn't even get that far...





nevermind, can't resist there are 40,000 pics like this
Ygduf is offline  
Old 02-23-15, 05:47 PM
  #13  
Voodoo76
Blast from the Past
 
Voodoo76's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Schertz TX
Posts: 3,192

Bikes: Felt FR1, Ridley Excal, CAAD10, CAAD12, Felt DA, Dolan

Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 215 Post(s)
Liked 42 Times in 35 Posts
To be fair that's not a Cat I-II race.
Voodoo76 is offline  
Old 02-23-15, 06:10 PM
  #14  
Ygduf
\_(ツ)_/
 
Ygduf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Redwood City, CA
Posts: 10,978

Bikes: aggressive agreement is what I ride.

Mentioned: 109 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 967 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 4 Times in 4 Posts
Originally Posted by Voodoo76 View Post
To be fair that's not a Cat I-II race.
p12!

your pedantry is game is good though. mad respect! I was wrong.
Ygduf is offline  
Old 02-23-15, 06:22 PM
  #15  
gsteinb
out walking the earth
 
gsteinb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Lake Placid, NY
Posts: 21,398
Mentioned: 71 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 891 Post(s)
Liked 693 Times in 320 Posts
Originally Posted by EventServices View Post
Yep. You're right. That's part of the problem.
Oh, there's a problem but I don't think that's it
gsteinb is offline  
Old 02-23-15, 06:22 PM
  #16  
globecanvas
Ninny
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: The Gunks
Posts: 5,294
Mentioned: 53 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 686 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by EventServices View Post
you can pretty much predict when/where a crash will occur. If you watch how other riders are moving in relation to everyone else, you can see it coming

This reminds me of the argument I made when trying to convince my mother to let me get a motorcycle.
globecanvas is offline  
Old 02-23-15, 06:31 PM
  #17  
mattm
**** that
 
mattm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: CALI
Posts: 15,398
Mentioned: 151 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1095 Post(s)
Liked 86 Times in 28 Posts
Originally Posted by Ygduf View Post
I mean, to be fair your premise couldn't really be more wrong. I was going to post a picture, but didn't even get that far...





nevermind, can't resist there are 40,000 pics like this
It was obviously the wildcard team's fault!!

Anyway, I'd love to find the p/1/2 races where huge crashes don't happen.

However I will say that if the 4's rode as close and as aggressively as 1/2's did, they would probably crash more often and the crashes would be bigger.

Really it's just a fact of racing.

Even good/great bike handlers will crash eventually.
__________________
cat 1.

my race videos
mattm is offline  
Old 02-23-15, 06:52 PM
  #18  
EventServices
Announcer
Thread Starter
 
EventServices's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Detroit's North Side.
Posts: 5,098

Bikes: More than I need, really.

Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 32 Post(s)
Liked 11 Times in 6 Posts
Originally Posted by Ygduf View Post
I mean, to be fair your premise couldn't really be more wrong. I was going to post a picture, but didn't even get that far...


nevermind, can't resist there are 40,000 pics like this
You cherry picked my comments to make your point when I clearly said "Occasionally they do, EPICALLY, but 99% of the time, it's one or two guys who tangle and go down."
You can find those epic crashes very easily on Google. Good job. But the larger percentage of crashes in pro and I-II races involve one or two riders. I said 99%. I speak in general terms. It may be higher than that.

Then you exaggerate by offering up the 40,000 number. Maybe Google found 40,000 images, but I guarantee you they didn't find 40,000 unique crashes. You distorted numbers to make a point. Why? You want to argue that Pro-I-II riders crash as fiercely and as often as Cat 4s? That's just not true.
EventServices is offline  
Old 02-23-15, 06:54 PM
  #19  
Ygduf
\_(ツ)_/
 
Ygduf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Redwood City, CA
Posts: 10,978

Bikes: aggressive agreement is what I ride.

Mentioned: 109 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 967 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 4 Times in 4 Posts
Originally Posted by EventServices View Post
You cherry picked my comments to make your point when I clearly said "Occasionally they do, EPICALLY, but 99% of the time, it's one or two guys who tangle and go down."
You can find those epic crashes very easily on Google. Good job. But the larger percentage of crashes in pro and I-II races involve one or two riders. I said 99%. I speak in general terms. It may be higher than that.
I didn't cherry pick your comment, I disagree with your premise that there are fewer crashes in p12.

You make the argument, so the obligation to support it, somehow, is on you. My google proves nothing, but it's slightly more than a blind statement posing as truth, no?*


*or that the crashes are smaller/involve fewer riders
Ygduf is offline  
Old 02-23-15, 06:58 PM
  #20  
EventServices
Announcer
Thread Starter
 
EventServices's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Detroit's North Side.
Posts: 5,098

Bikes: More than I need, really.

Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 32 Post(s)
Liked 11 Times in 6 Posts
No, I never said there were fewer crashes in a P12. I think there, but what I said was that their crashes usually involve one or two riders. Versus a Cat 4 crash that will generally involve many.

Sorry to be contentious. Not normally my style.
EventServices is offline  
Old 02-23-15, 07:02 PM
  #21  
Ygduf
\_(ツ)_/
 
Ygduf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Redwood City, CA
Posts: 10,978

Bikes: aggressive agreement is what I ride.

Mentioned: 109 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 967 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 4 Times in 4 Posts
Originally Posted by EventServices View Post
No, I never said there were fewer crashes in a P12. I think there, but what I said was that their crashes usually involve one or two riders. Versus a Cat 4 crash that will generally involve many.

Sorry to be contentious. Not normally my style.
I knew you'd glom onto that so I added the edit before you even posted.

Anyway, why do you think this? Where is the data?

If it's somehow supported, why would you think it's anything more than bike handling is somewhat proportional to experience and p12 fields tend to have the most experienced riders?

But seriously, this discussion has come up 15 times and I've asked 15 times for _any_ data that points to like crashes/mile/participant for any category of racing and it's never ever been even hinted at that such a thing exists.

And I'm not trying to be willful or anything other than pragmatic.
Ygduf is offline  
Old 02-23-15, 07:11 PM
  #22  
globecanvas
Ninny
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: The Gunks
Posts: 5,294
Mentioned: 53 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 686 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
I think the point here was to start a thread where people would talk about ways that their experience has taught them to read situations to avoid crashes. I don't think anyone could argue that experience has value in avoiding crashes, so that seems reasonable.

I'll make an obvious contribution. If somebody crashes on a turn, aim for where they are, because that's one place you know they won't be by the time you get there,


It's interesting that the thread itself crashed so quickly. It may be even harder to avoid crash situations on the internet than in a bicycle race.
globecanvas is offline  
Old 02-23-15, 07:39 PM
  #23  
EventServices
Announcer
Thread Starter
 
EventServices's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Detroit's North Side.
Posts: 5,098

Bikes: More than I need, really.

Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 32 Post(s)
Liked 11 Times in 6 Posts
Mine is purely observational from being in the sport for 100 years (I round up) and as an announcer who has called so many races and seen so many crashes. and so many people running to the pit area.
I've been announcing since 1985. If you spend your day on stage all day watching every single race, you collect your own data.

I'd like to see a study, though.

Originally Posted by globecanvas View Post
I'll make an obvious contribution. If somebody crashes on a turn, aim for where they are, because that's one place you know they won't be by the time you get there,
Yep. Yet you often see riders try to hurry around on the outside. Never make it.
EventServices is offline  
Old 02-23-15, 08:26 PM
  #24  
Voodoo76
Blast from the Past
 
Voodoo76's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Schertz TX
Posts: 3,192

Bikes: Felt FR1, Ridley Excal, CAAD10, CAAD12, Felt DA, Dolan

Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 215 Post(s)
Liked 42 Times in 35 Posts
Originally Posted by globecanvas View Post

I'll make an obvious contribution. If somebody crashes on a turn, aim for where they are, because that's one place you know they won't be by the time you get there,

Aim for the neck (so I used to be told).

Seriously though, watch the best. At about 26s the Canadian rider overlaps a wheel and slides all the way to the cote while everyone behind casually rides past. In regular speed it was impressive. Is it cherry picking an example, yes. Can you find videos of a Track rider going down and taking others? Sure. Is there something to learn from this? I think yes, stay relaxed and don't over react. I bet you put 10 typical weekend racers behind that Girl and 2 of them immediately take themselves down, the rest scattering like an IED when off in the field.

Voodoo76 is offline  
Old 02-23-15, 09:12 PM
  #25  
EventServices
Announcer
Thread Starter
 
EventServices's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Detroit's North Side.
Posts: 5,098

Bikes: More than I need, really.

Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 32 Post(s)
Liked 11 Times in 6 Posts
Tip: When a crash occurs ahead of you (or behind you for that matter), don't look at it. Look for an escape or something soft.

Newer racers tend to look at the crash and grab the brakes.

We had a crash in the 45+ race last year. It happened at the back of the pack, yet 5 guys went down in FRONT of the original crash.
EventServices is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information -

Copyright 2021 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.