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Cycling Ethics...

Old 03-21-15, 06:12 AM
  #226  
mike868y
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Originally Posted by spectastic
alcohol can numb pain? damn
i drink every night to numb the pain of my mediocre life
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Old 03-21-15, 06:42 AM
  #227  
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if intended to be that's actually not funny

***psa***

there are a gaggle of old guys here who be more than happy to support (almost*) anyone.



























*Not RTC









Edit: of course if this is a commentary on living in Boston and not the Motherland, well done.

Last edited by gsteinb; 03-21-15 at 06:47 AM.
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Old 03-21-15, 06:53 AM
  #228  
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^it's more true than i want it to be
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Old 03-21-15, 06:56 AM
  #229  
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well then I retract my whiney dweeb and if you ever want to chat reach out
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Old 03-21-15, 07:02 AM
  #230  
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thanks g
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Old 03-21-15, 09:19 AM
  #231  
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Originally Posted by gsteinb
interestingly enough I'm presently involved in a committee to establish a code of ethics for my foundation's teacher training community. ...

And what of the precept not to take life?

that's one rough teacher training community!!
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Old 03-21-15, 09:33 AM
  #232  
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Originally Posted by Surfer3287
As a former-student/current teacher/soccer coach/everyday human being with a very strong right-wrong moral/ethical compass (oddly, from a non-religious family background)
First, great post. Second, I wanted to pull this out. Not to make a P&R thing out of this, but people tangle up the morality and religion thing a lot. From everything I've seen, they don't have a heck of a lot to do with one another. I wouldn't consider it odd at all that you can have a strong moral compass from a non-religious background. That's all. And to be clear, same is true from the side as well. Basically I don't think there's any reason to pull religious upbringing into it from any perspective.

Originally Posted by gsteinb
if intended to be that's actually not funny

***psa***

there are a gaggle of old guys here who be more than happy to support (almost*) anyone.
Aw, you're alright, g.

Long as we're being all serious and stuff, it's not always 100% the best part of us that comes through here. Mikey's not actually that grouchy IRL, neither am I, gary gave me a hug the first time he met me, I'm sure Doge is cool, too. And for all that some people seem to think that I hate Fudgy's guts, it ain't so. I'll buy a beer or coffee for anyone who's ever in my neck of the woods. Unless you're a mormon, I guess, in which case I'll buy you an orange juice or something.

Uuuhhhh, jerks.
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Old 03-21-15, 09:49 AM
  #233  
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“Excellence is never an accident. It is always the result of high intention, sincere effort, and intelligent execution; it represents the wise choice of many alternatives - choice, not chance, determines your destiny.”
― Aristotle

Ethics influence choice. How do you want to be remembered or known by others?
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Old 03-21-15, 09:57 AM
  #234  
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I remember reading this article when it was published. My intention in posting is absolutely not to make light of Doge's past injury, whatever that may have been. I think the theory that moral/ethical judgments are informed by two different systems, one emotional and one utilitarian, is very interesting and illuminating.


https://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/22/science/22brain.html


Originally Posted by that article
I think its very convincing now that there are at least two systems working when we make moral judgments, said Joshua Greene, a psychologist at Harvard who was not involved in the study. Theres an emotional system that depends on this specific part of the brain, and another system that performs more utilitarian cost-benefit analyses which in these people is clearly intact.
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Old 03-21-15, 11:34 AM
  #235  
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Originally Posted by mike868y
i drink every night to numb the pain of my mediocre life
you should do a week long bike tour. I recommend amtrak to the pacific coast and southbound across oregon and california.
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Old 03-21-15, 12:16 PM
  #236  
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Originally Posted by Surfer3287
Maybe it's the teacher part of me that has stopped me from entering into this argument previously, but I'm glad someone else is having to deal with the dilemma of ethics with teaching in mind. It blows my mind how often middle school students have questions or actions that involve these kinds of arguments and "solutions" to their classroom problems, i.e. "I didn't know I couldn't do that" or "you're the only teacher who doesn't let us do "X"." I have to often step back and remember they are in middle school, and some need these moments to be genuine life-lessons. This is especially important to me - every teacher would like to think their class is important, but as a Civics teacher, I care less about making them informed voters and more about making them informed and responsible citizens - one day they're going to be our neighbors.

That being said, it truly scares me how often I hear parents (and sometimes, even teachers) share the similarly-shady ethical views of their students. If you wonder where it comes, first check the home. Then, check the neighborhood/community (and the classroom.) That does not mean that Doge (or any one else here) is a bad parent; it is not my right to say how to parent, or to judge them. However, from a strictly professional standpoint, there ARE times when I am REQUIRED to speak up about moral/ethical issues that I see. Do I suspect that abuse is happening? Did your math teacher leave posters up uncovered during a standardized state test? Did you take Rx drugs to do better on a test but don't have a Rx? Laws are in place that put me in the awkward position of being responsible for judging people - not an enviable position, when my day is full of so many other things. My point is, however, that cultural differences are one thing that totally need to be considered and do not get enough consideration in many areas around the country (and world, for that matter.) We'd all like to believe that the values we believe are the best and are "true" - but the problem is, a lot of people fail on actually putting those ideals into practice in their daily lives, because they're too hard to follow, too idealistic, put us at an unfair advantage.

As a former-student/current teacher/soccer coach/everyday human being with a very strong right-wrong moral/ethical compass (oddly, from a non-religious family background), I'm not sure where it came from that I get so agitated with this. However, stuff like this gives me the eye-twitch moments. I was the kid that would feel sick and turn myself in to my parents because I knew I did something wrong. I know that isn't normal. That probably is the same feeling that the committee (any sport, really) want athletes to feel, but can rarely inspire. I know that middle school soccer players need a TON of ethical coaching in addition to sport coaching - and that is the reason why in three years I have never broken a .500 record. Winning isn't important enough to lose my job, my reputation, and my personal understanding of ethics that I would cheat. YMMV.

/rant
As a university faculty member, they recently changed policy here and now I'm a mandatory reporter for a lot of things. Not just sexual misconduct (though it does bug me that I'm required to report that to the title IX officer if both people are members of the university community rather than going straight to the cops, which would be my preference), but all sorts of things. When my students would tell me things before in confidence, I can no longer give them that assurance. And my student who was talking in the lab about getting mugged the previous weekend? Even though he already reported it to the cops, I have to do so again or risk losing my job. Most of the rest of it makes sense, but sometimes I wish there was a bit of flexibility. On the other hand, not having any sort of absolves me of responsibility if things go bad as long as I follow the rules.
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Old 03-21-15, 02:47 PM
  #237  
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Originally Posted by spectastic
you should do a week long bike tour. I recommend amtrak to the pacific coast and southbound across oregon and california.
depending on how things shape up, i'm planning on taking a week off from work this fall for some bike camping.
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Old 03-21-15, 03:06 PM
  #238  
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Originally Posted by mike868y
depending on how things shape up, i'm planning on taking a week off from work this fall for some bike camping.
where are you planning to go? I just did across texas and southern half of pacific coast, which was gorgeous. I heard the northern half is even better. If you haven't already, try doing warmshowers.
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Old 03-21-15, 03:52 PM
  #239  
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I rode the Oregon coast back in 8th grade (circa '93) with a friend and his dad. Awesome ride, beautiful scenery, much recommend.
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Old 03-21-15, 04:11 PM
  #240  
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Mikey was going to do a cross country trip a few years ago but his riding companion bailed. Fulfill your dreams. You'll find a way to get the time off of work and the money to do it. Too bad we'll miss you in Sunday. It was nice to catch up.
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Old 03-23-15, 04:30 AM
  #241  
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Originally Posted by grolby
First, great post. Second, I wanted to pull this out. Not to make a P&R thing out of this, but people tangle up the morality and religion thing a lot. From everything I've seen, they don't have a heck of a lot to do with one another. I wouldn't consider it odd at all that you can have a strong moral compass from a non-religious background. That's all. And to be clear, same is true from the side as well. Basically I don't think there's any reason to pull religious upbringing into it from any perspective.
Agreed, but it bothers me that I need to make the clarification to so many people when I try to defend choices or beliefs (must be a local community thing). I hate being pigeonholed. Unless you guys are pigeonholing me as a fast bike racer. Then, I'll drink the Kool-Aid.
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Old 03-23-15, 04:39 AM
  #242  
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Originally Posted by himespau
As a university faculty member, they recently changed policy here and now I'm a mandatory reporter for a lot of things. Not just sexual misconduct (though it does bug me that I'm required to report that to the title IX officer if both people are members of the university community rather than going straight to the cops, which would be my preference), but all sorts of things. When my students would tell me things before in confidence, I can no longer give them that assurance. And my student who was talking in the lab about getting mugged the previous weekend? Even though he already reported it to the cops, I have to do so again or risk losing my job. Most of the rest of it makes sense, but sometimes I wish there was a bit of flexibility. On the other hand, not having any sort of absolves me of responsibility if things go bad as long as I follow the rules.
Flexibility would be awesome. But that leads back to this thread - do we need to tell people when they need to follow the rules, or can they all follow them by themselves? Someone earlier brought up a good point: team sports rarely have the drive to turn in other members or the other team, whereas individual sports (golf is the primary example I can think of) has a lot of examples of people turning themselves in for not following the rules. Even in super-dumb examples, like a mismatching scorecard due to arithmetic errors or not signing a card could cost a round/tournament.
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Old 03-27-15, 03:13 PM
  #243  
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I was told it was in poor form to intentionally enter a stage race and quite right after the 1st stage.
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Old 03-27-15, 03:17 PM
  #244  
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But is it unethical?
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Old 03-27-15, 03:33 PM
  #245  
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Too late now... Same result. :-(
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Old 04-03-15, 02:03 PM
  #246  
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Originally Posted by gsteinb
if intended to be that's actually not funny

***psa***

there are a gaggle of old guys here who be more than happy to support (almost*) anyone.

*Not RTC
So many feels

Originally Posted by mike868y
^it's more true than i want it to be
Dude, come hang. Lets hit up BKB soon. I'm only around for a bit longer due to life stuffs.

Originally Posted by mike868y
depending on how things shape up, i'm planning on taking a week off from work this fall for some bike camping.
Do it! I'm planning to vanish for 1.5 months this summer. Looking forward to it like woah.
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Old 04-06-15, 11:47 PM
  #247  
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Originally Posted by Doge
I was told it was in poor form to intentionally enter a stage race and quite right after the 1st stage.
Someone else paying the entry?
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Old 04-07-15, 07:46 AM
  #248  
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Normally, yes, not in this case as it was going to be just one race.
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Old 04-07-15, 08:05 AM
  #249  
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^ If it's a 2 day race and the second day isn't in the cards then I think it's okay.

I've never finished a proper stage race, btw, and it isn't because I quit. I always got eliminated at the end of the first day (2 day race) or third day (4 day race, at least it was 4 stages). Whenever the RR happened I was out. My first stage race was a 2 RR stage race and they let me start the second stage because pity. I got shelled almost immediately.

What I'm saying is that if there was a stage race and there were some flatter bits in the first days and I was feeling magnanimous then it might be that I start the race with the intent to help teammates knowing full well I wouldn't make the cut on the queen stage. Heck many (most?) of the road races I started were like that, I knew I wouldn't be in the field after the first lap so I just worked for my teammates, dropped out, and headed home.
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Old 04-07-15, 08:06 AM
  #250  
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Seems they were not weighing bikes in any of stages in the Limburg (Belgium) stage race this last weekend. We had weight bolted onto the BB.
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