Doge

If you would go 70mph in front of the officer continually and you were not ticketed - Pretty much you are good to go in that area with that officer.
I would be shocked to hear anyone going 75 between San Clemente and Oceanside ever got a ticket for going 75 (limit is 65) and surprised if they got it for 80.
Go to another area/state - and the officer is different and so are the rules.

hack

Rules are the same, enforcement of rules changes. Semantics and pedantry.

Doge

The post was re Ethics. That is a soft term. I was in fact wondering and the is a good definition. Because if you are not somewhat of a dick or at least pushing the rules you are either way to fit for your race - or not winning.

Ethics <> Rules <> Cheating

shovelhd

It's Wednesday. Isn't that torch getting a little heavy?

Doge

No.

hack

I know ... that was in response to your response re: "what are rules" .

Nonetheless, yeah, the dont be a dick is a good one.

Doge

I believe the quote was too big of one.

globecanvas

By this logic, you are good to go on murdering your wife in Brentwood, Pretoria, or Newport.

Doge

I didn't know there was logic being used.

Here are definitions I like - some borrowed of course:
Ethics: "Don't be too big a dick"
Cheating:Intentionally breaking an agreement while intending to not be caught.
Agreement for cycling = rules that each rider signs they will follow.
Advantage may be useful for officials to determine penalty if caught but I can think of cheating with no plans of gaining an advantage.
Being caught - general term from being caught by who you made the agreement with or some proxy like a referee.

There are criminal and immoral things that may or may not be cheating, but first they are criminal and immoral. I don't really know how that fits into a simple rule.

Ygduf

criminal means against the law. The same laws lawyers and courts are constantly arguing over and setting new precedents...

Nobody agrees about what's immoral.

Doge

That is why I posted I don't know how [criminal and immoral] that fits into a simple rule. But I'm pretty good with that rule applying to bike racing - and soccer.

shovelhd

PL soccer officiating is a joke. The flopping has become a part of the sport. You smirk when you get the call and you biatch when you don't. There are no ethics in deciding to fake an injury, you just do it. It's sad. So is that the kind of ethics you are talking about here? If your kid got paced back to the field illegally you wouldn't utter a peep but when one of his rivals does you scream?

I am 100% with you regarding the inconsistencies and what appears to be sloppy officiating at Chico. Those are legitimate complaints that, if you wanted to make your voice heard, should be directed at the NTC. What I see, only from what you have written on this forum, is a guy who is constantly interpreting the rules his way and biatches when officials don't agree with the interpretation. Respect the officials. Respect the sport. That should be priority #1 . Not gaining a watt.

topflightpro

And here is Doge providing an answer to his question. Now how long will he argue he's right?

Doge

Except I didn't provide the answer. It was provided in post #24 (I believe the only one) which is why I said I borrowed it.

gsteinb

Doge

This is a real thing. USAC has a DB of things they think violate it.
Maybe @shovelhd can give some examples. If the word Ethics doesn't work maybe dirty riding is better.
At Ontario a rider that would cut the corner into the gutter every lap was told his riding would be noted in the DB.
Best I know it wasn't cheating, was not penalized by the referee - his name was put on a list.
That's the stuff I'm curious about. What is it?

Some teams have techniques that are common to the team, some riders are repeating the same things. Some riders don't care about an act, some do - and file a report.

Forcing a rider wide on a turn and using an elbow to keep them there.
These two will be teammates and my son has nothing against this. Other complained about it (no report that I know)

Doge

Somewhat, so clearly at certain venues pacing back on is allowed - and I'd expect it. But more (as in last post) what is in the DB. What are riders being reported for and yet not penalized
for.

Other than responding to you below I am not asking about rules in this thread. I'm asking about what kind of stuff gets in that DB - Ethics/dirty riding/too big a dick/gamesmanship.

You may read it that way, it happens not to be true. I find folks commonly don't read what I actually post and argue I'm saying the opposite of what I did (@grolby in the Lance was Cheating thread where he say I said it was OK if you didn't get caught - I didn't post that, but 2-3 pages seemed to think I did). I posted about slowing (not pedaling as hard) in a corner and you read it as a brake check (is that in the DB?).

Our intent is to always follow the rules and other than the spare wheel example with the wrong gear that an official allowed or a kit change - we do. We didn't wrinkle the number at Chino because the rules said not to, otherwise we do because the rules don't say not to.
Pacing on - At Santa Barbara RR my kid was paced on by an official as the wheel support was behind the main pack not with the breakaway where he had a flat. Was I to report COM2 to COM1? I mentioned it to the chief referee at VOS as I was the support vehicle and wanted to know the policy for VOS (as that pacing rule becomes meaningless). When my son had a mechanical at VOS RR, I got out and helped and left him in the wind to ride 90 min by himself. At Chico I emailed the chief referee in advance about my son wearing his LS kit as they had a requirement teams had exactly the same kit. He agreed it was a rule and he agreed he'd allow it. Maybe the other riders emailed the referee too.

Ygduf

after tuesday's ride I would say it's very unethical to blow your nose when you aren't REALLY SURE there's no one behind you. ****ing gross.

shovelhd

Doge, I would say that what you have written above is not congruent with some of the things you have written elsewhere. If you are taking the time to scour the technical guides and understand the general expectations in your area, then you're doing it right. Taking things too literally though is where you can get in trouble. Falling back on "that wasn't stated in the tech guide" isn't good enough. Ask an official. Use common sense. You say it is about ethics, and I say it is about respect.

What do you mean by DB? ******bag? Database? Double butted?

gsteinb

double breasted!

shovelhd

you look marvelous

Hermes

Perhaps David Brown

Ygduf

dirty ballerina

Doge

I asked several times for someone to give me an example of a post I made that was inconstant with my view that riders should not break rules. No one has.

Here is an older video below. This is not very uncommon with juniors/this rider. I know of a few adults that do this. I don't have to think hard to say this is not fair / Ethical. But it was not penalized then and generally not penalized. So it goes in my not cheating but being too big a dick category.
Thoughts?

shovelhd

I would report that.