shovelhd

I could query your kid but I felt that might be invasive.

Doge

Actually, you could start a business like free credit reports.

gsteinb

I suspect bicycle forums has a more robust system of tracking infractions than USAC.

Doge

I don't know if they are tracking non-violations. I do not like if there is a thing that is being tracked about riders that are not violations. If it's worth tracking, it should be worth punishing, on the spot. If an action takes place that the referee does not punish the rider should get a clean start next race.. If it's legal, but un-ethical, the rider gets their own rep.

Doge

No wonder Ethics are so confusing. Son had to go through and sign Code of Conduct. One point is if you see someone breaking the CofC and don't report them you have broken the CofC. I have not seen a team sport where that works.

gsteinb

ethics aren't confusing. that people think they are is confusing.

grolby

Maps are confusing, if you don't have a compass.

Ygduf

I'm usually confused, in general.

spectastic

when I toured on my bicycle, I stealth camped in a little league baseball dugout, and took my morning piss on the field, in the grass (not the clay). Was that ethical or not?

oh wait, this is about drugs isn't it? nevermind

himespau 

Were there little league kids there while you pissed? It makes a difference.

Doge

Or you can just have a compass (which is wrong) and a map (which is wrong) and feel a great sense of well being.
Maps are far more confusing than ethics and certainly so if you use a compass.

Doge

The documents kids are made to sign (meaningless legally) are not realistic with the expectations of riders.
I don't expect cyclists to follow every traffic law.
I don't expect riders to report their coaches and their mechanics for CofC violations that are not illegal and not considered wrong by that rider.

So why have kids who's signatures have no legal significance sign stuff that was written to keep lawyers away?

TheKillerPenguin

Are there any rules explicitly preventing making fun of other dudes moms, eg Yo momma so fat her belt size is velodrome?

gsteinb

I generally find your attitude towards right and wrong to be kinda troubling.

Why have a kid sign something? Because when they're caught up in something and they get kicked out there's something they signed that says they understand the repercussions of their actions.

Doge

Have you read and signed the USAC Code of Conduct?

Any unrealistic agreement only creates a dullness to what is really important. When having a kid sign these things that are primarily legal documents, it very much clouds their thinking.

There is a bike path (S San Clemente boarder with San Diego Bike path) that dumps onto the street bike path going north. To do that the cyclist leaves the path and crosses a double double yellow (traffic violation) on their left turn. The alternative is go right over freeway overpass with no bike path, U turn at next block and back on the road, both more dangerous and longer than the simple left onto the bike path. So to 10-12 year old kid that just signed that agreement with their bike club to obey all traffic laws might be more confused than an adult. They have to learn to put themselves in danger, or break an agreement. Of course, no cop, nor judge would have an issue with that left turn, but kid's mind's aren't there. Following exact rules/laws is easier than them having to think about it.
As time goes on they get more and more agreements to sign that along with truly good rules have all kinds of things that those with mature judgment can figure out. Its not that easy for them. Having rules that when applied translate to saying a 14 year old should report their adult coach or mechanic for having a legal beer seems like a rather useless trivial thing to bother with. Having rules that mean adult teammates should report one another if anyone has a legal beer is in the same category.

Next they will want reporting of teammates with crinkled numbers.

gsteinb

I need to put you on ignore.

spectastic

i dont think so.

hack

I think it should still fall back to fudgy's "dont be a dick" creed. If you're doing something that gives you an unfair advantage, you're being a dick and shouldn't do it. If you see someone doing something that gives them an unfair advantage, they're being a dick and should be called out. Crinkled numbers isn't a dick move, but attacking across the yellow line is. I'm not advocating number crinkling (from what I gather it can make it difficult for an official to place you), but suggesting people not undermine the rules to their advantage. Just do what's right, especially in a juniors comp that has potential career implications.

shovelhd

The problem is, and the basis of this thread is, some people want to determine what's right for THEM as opposed to what those in charge deem right for everyone. The standard defenses are used. Hypocracy. Everybody does it. That guy did it and didn't get punished but we did. Blah blah blah. In every sport where there is a judge involved, there will be interpretation of rules. These interpretations will not always be consistent. They may not even make sense. That is not the issue not should it be anyone's concern. The officials call stands. A protest mechanism is in place of one disagrees. Use it. If you still don't agree, take it to Colorado.

That is how I define "Don't be a dick".

hack

^ I think that is fair. There are rules, if you break the rules, knowingly or not, and get slapped by an official, you should not be surprised (even if Johnny over there got away with it).

grolby

I just went and read the Code of Conduct. It's not very long. It's not very complicated. Care to be specific about which items on it would not be considered wrong by a reasonable person? Because I seriously do not know what the F you are talking about. Basically, it says: "Do not commit a felony. Do not dope or enable others to dope. Do not use illegal drugs. Do not discriminate. Do not harass or abuse. Do not provide alcohol to minors, drink excessively around minors or drink and drive while on USAC business. Do not lie. Do not break **** or punch people. If you see anyone misbehaving in these ways, you are obligated to report them."

I mean, seriously - what the hell is wrong with you? Your attitude to this is really pretty damn disturbing. The CoC is "unrealistic?" That's frankly kind of horrifying to read. The large majority of it is about protecting young people from harassment, abuse and exploitation. People like your kid. Which makes your whine about the requirement to report violations of the code of conduct especially worrying.

If you're saying that it's basically toothless - well, sure. Publishing a code of conduct does not automatically mean that an organization's culture is going to be ethical and safe. That's obvious to any thinking adult. But the actual content is eminently sensible.

Here's a link for anyone who wants to know what you're complaining about: USA Cycling Code of Conduct.

Doge

I'm not bothered by the large majority of it. Just the stuff that is realistically not going to be followed.
Have you reported everything you have heard Alleged about other riders? If you haven't you are in violation of the CofC and I have to report you now.

Like: "(q) Failure of any member who is a party to or witnesses any violation(s) contained in the above stated USA Cycling Code of Conduct to report the specific violation to USA Cycling immediately."

Also Section 4
"Alleged violations of the USA Cycling Code of Conduct must be reported to USA Cycling’s"

So failure to report a coach adult drinking "too much" at the hotel (j), or not reporting a 25 year old mechanic giving a cigarette to a 20 year old rider (i), or failing to report a 20 year old having a beer where the legal age is 16.

If I find a rider knew of something and didn't report it, and I don't report it is a violation.

mattm

It's about the spirit of "the law" in this case, not the letter of it.

You understand exactly what it's saying, stop playing dumb!

MDcatV

playing?

Ygduf

the problem with a poorly used socratic method of asking stupid questions you know the answer to is that instead of insightful questions that bring the audience to understand your PoV, you have vagueness that forces everyone to answer from different angles because the original goal was so unclear. The answers tangentially cross some point and then diverge more and more.

anyway, I've never had a moral dilemma in cycling. I mean, wth. Do unto others.

I guess my TT setup is UCI illegal, extensions too far forward. Were I DQd from something I would take it, but I still do it and if someone else with the arms of a 6'8" guy were also illegal I wouldn't hold it against him.