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Cycling Ethics...

Old 03-19-15, 11:41 AM
  #126  
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Originally Posted by Ygduf View Post
the problem with a poorly used socratic method of asking stupid questions you know the answer to is that instead of insightful questions that bring the audience to understand your PoV, you have vagueness that forces everyone to answer from different angles because the original goal was so unclear. The answers tangentially cross some point and then diverge more and more.
Gtfo of here with your intelligent responses!
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Old 03-19-15, 12:01 PM
  #127  
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Old 03-19-15, 12:19 PM
  #128  
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Full circle to the map analogy, it really helps when people actually know what the rules are.

In California (and most states) it is legal to turn across a single set of double yellow lines at an intersection or private drive way unless otherwise marked.

UCI bike rules generally do not apply outside USA Team selection, NRC, and national championship races. For other races, if the race flyer doesn't limit equipment then you can ride anything that is judged safe and fits in the limited bike equipment section of the USA Cycling Rulebook.
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Old 03-19-15, 01:04 PM
  #129  
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Originally Posted by Doge View Post
I'm not bothered by the large majority of it. Just the stuff that is realistically not going to be followed.
This is bananas. ALL of it is, at some point, realistically not going to be followed by someone. That's why there there are rules and why there is a code of conduct. To lay out exactly what behavior is considered unacceptable and what the ethical responsibilities of participants are. We don't make rules to forbid the things that no one is ever going to do. We make rules because some actions are morally wrong, or harmful, or bring disrepute upon the sport and/or the organization, yet some people nonetheless perform those actions. This is not rocket science, it is not confusing and it is not unreasonable to require reporting. Yes, if a rider knew of a violation and did not report it, that too is a violation. Some violations are more serious than others. That, too, shouldn't be confusing to anyone.
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Old 03-19-15, 01:48 PM
  #130  
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Originally Posted by Ygduf View Post
the problem with a poorly used socratic method of asking stupid questions you know the answer to is that instead of insightful questions that bring the audience to understand your PoV, you have vagueness that forces everyone to answer from different angles because the original goal was so unclear. The answers tangentially cross some point and then diverge more and more.

anyway, I've never had a moral dilemma in cycling. I mean, wth. Do unto others.

I guess my TT setup is UCI illegal, extensions too far forward. Were I DQd from something I would take it, but I still do it and if someone else with the arms of a 6'8" guy were also illegal I wouldn't hold it against him.
In UCI events, bikes are checked before you race and you would not get on the course if you failed to pass the test. For time records, the bikes may be checked after the event such as at Sattley. So if you set a national record at Sattley and your bars were too long, you would not get the record.

But rest easy....your secret is safe with me.
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Old 03-19-15, 01:50 PM
  #131  
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Originally Posted by Hermes View Post
In UCI events, bikes are checked before you race and you would not get on the course if you failed to pass the test. For time records, the bikes may be checked after the event such as at Sattley. So if you set a national record at Sattley and your bars were too long, you would not get the record.

But rest easy....your secret is safe with me.
the above scenario is so unrealistic I have trouble considering it even in the hypothetical...
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Old 03-19-15, 01:56 PM
  #132  
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Let me restate/rant without a question. The CofC links to hundreds of pages of information - it is not simple as suggested unless one ignores each link.

A child is mandated to sign a document (many documents) of pages of information when you actually click the link that and they must lie that they fully understand and will abide by the detail in hundreds of pages. Right off the bat USAC is requiring children to lie to play. We all know what it means. It means just sign the thing and play even though no kid fully understands what they just said they fully understood. So the spirit of what it means comes into play. What the rules actually say is not significant as no one can know all of them.

I've spent the last hour searching on what my son can use to sleep on the flight home (that works) without violating this thing. My son has had to avoid food served to him in groups because of USAC memos. It really is not easy at all.
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Old 03-19-15, 02:09 PM
  #133  
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Just sign it and abide by the rule "don't be a dick". And don't worry about breaking some obscure rule accidentally. Whatever.
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Old 03-19-15, 02:12 PM
  #134  
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You're deliberately obfuscating the issue at this point. Yes, you've got to avoid taking anything on the WADA banned list. Not that hard, actually. Figuring out how you're going to drug your kid to sleep on the plane is your own damn problem.

Your kid is also NOT required to read and understand the full text of the Athlete Protection Policies, nor the banned substances list. He is required to agree to not violate the APP (which is easy to do if you simply don't act like a toolbag) or take anything on the banned list. He is not required to read and sign those documents. You're full of crap when you say "Right off the bat USAC is requiring children to lie to play." That's just utter nonsense. Yeah, sometimes you need to reference the banned substance list when you're looking to treat an illness or something. It can be a hassle. So? It's not difficult to understand.
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Old 03-19-15, 02:15 PM
  #135  
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Originally Posted by Doge View Post
Let me restate/rant without a question. The CofC links to hundreds of pages of information - it is not simple as suggested unless one ignores each link.

A child is mandated to sign a document (many documents) of pages of information when you actually click the link that and they must lie that they fully understand and will abide by the detail in hundreds of pages. Right off the bat USAC is requiring children to lie to play. We all know what it means. It means just sign the thing and play even though no kid fully understands what they just said they fully understood. So the spirit of what it means comes into play. What the rules actually say is not significant as no one can know all of them.

I've spent the last hour searching on what my son can use to sleep on the flight home (that works) without violating this thing. My son has had to avoid food served to him in groups because of USAC memos. It really is not easy at all.

there is an idiom "to borrow trouble"
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Old 03-19-15, 02:37 PM
  #136  
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Originally Posted by grolby View Post
...He is required to agree to not violate the APP (which is easy to do if you simply don't act like a toolbag) or take anything on the banned list. He is not required to read and sign those documents. You're full of crap when you say "Right off the bat USAC is requiring children to lie to play." That's just utter nonsense. Yeah, sometimes you need to reference the banned substance list when you're looking to treat an illness or something. It can be a hassle. So? It's not difficult to understand.
This is the text: "I certify that I have read all terms and conditions and fully understand, accept, and agree to be bound by them."
The items you reference are links in the CofC and you say some must be followed and others not. It is not that clear to me which links are included and which links are not.
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Old 03-19-15, 02:41 PM
  #137  
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Okay, you're right. It's totally unreasonable to have a kid sign this document and ethics are totally murky and rules are haaaaaard to follow. Waaaah.
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Old 03-19-15, 03:00 PM
  #138  
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your kid needs drugs on a plane? why cant he just take some books and either occupy himself or doze off, or both.
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Old 03-19-15, 03:23 PM
  #139  
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Old 03-19-15, 03:25 PM
  #140  
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Originally Posted by MDcatV View Post
your kid needs drugs on a plane? why cant he just take some books and either occupy himself or doze off, or both.
i drug my kids on a plane. it's the considerate thing to do.
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Old 03-19-15, 03:27 PM
  #141  
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I drug other peoples' kids.














Is that ethical?
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Old 03-19-15, 03:29 PM
  #142  
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as long as you've read and signed the Code of Conduct
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Old 03-19-15, 05:32 PM
  #143  
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Originally Posted by MDcatV View Post
your kid needs drugs on a plane? why cant he just take some books and either occupy himself or doze off, or both.
Did I say drugs? This last year diet sports drinks to Taco meat (which he avoided in Mexico) were reasons for bans. MRI that sponsored lots of SoCal riders had a list of items not allowed for cycling, and they were not drugs.

I have no issue using drugs where drugs need to be used but everything from a Cold Ez to a Vitamin C supplement to a protein bar needs to be checked out and as WADA states - just because its not on the list does not mean a rider is clear.

Taking a drug is IMO better than elongating a sickness, not sleeping or dealing with extreme pain. It depends.

Last edited by Doge; 03-19-15 at 05:38 PM.
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Old 03-19-15, 05:43 PM
  #144  
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Originally Posted by Doge View Post
Did I say drugs? This last year diet sports drinks to Taco meat (which he avoided in Mexico) were reasons for bans. MRI that sponsored lots of SoCal riders had a list of items not allowed for cycling, and they were not drugs.

I have no issue using drugs where drugs need to be used but everything from a Cold Ez to a Vitamin C supplement to a protein bar needs to be checked out and as WADA states - just because its not on the list does not mean a rider is clear.

Taking a drug is IMO better than elongating a sickness, not sleeping or dealing with extreme pain. It depends.

reference?
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Old 03-19-15, 05:58 PM
  #145  
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sauce
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Old 03-19-15, 05:59 PM
  #146  
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To what? Meat? UCI letter on clenbuterol regulations - USA Cycling
MRI - look up on their site.
Him being in Mexico? You'll need to friend him on Facebook.
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Old 03-19-15, 06:06 PM
  #147  
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Originally Posted by Ygduf View Post
oh please. if he was from someplace like Boston you'd write reference too (which you've done countless times already).
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Old 03-19-15, 06:10 PM
  #148  
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Originally Posted by Doge View Post
There's nothing in there indicating there was a ban related to tainted meat. In fact Contador's defense was thrown out due to the fact that the science demonstrated that the amount of the drug left in the meat wouldn't be enough to trigger a response. Still, avoiding chinese meat is probably a good idea no matter if you're trying to adhere to the WADA code.

Not sure where the diet soda ban came from.

Avoid Hammer products as well…Meeker said they're bad.
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Old 03-19-15, 06:31 PM
  #149  
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Try showing up to a race with an inhaler because you are actually being asthmatic. I bet real Nigerian Prince's get less flack.
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Old 03-19-15, 06:35 PM
  #150  
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Originally Posted by grolby View Post
Okay, you're right. It's totally unreasonable to have a kid sign this document and ethics are totally murky and rules are haaaaaard to follow. Waaaah.
And, you know, the same standard is applied to playing hs sports. And to usa swimming. And, I think one can safely assume, most of the other sports under the Olympic funding umbrella.

As a college swimmer part of the code of conduct was abstaining from alcohol during the season. Even during the season, and we kicked someone off the team for it while I was in school. That was a condition of playing, if you don't like it you're welcome to do something else.

Since a huge number of people manage similar codes of conduct, what's your problem again?
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