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Cycling Ethics...

Old 03-19-15, 06:35 PM
  #151  
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Life is hard.
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Old 03-19-15, 06:42 PM
  #152  
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Originally Posted by furiousferret View Post
Try showing up to a race with an inhaler because you are actually being asthmatic. I bet real Nigerian Prince's get less flack.
I have never gotten negative feedback about my inhaler. I don't flaunt it, though.
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Old 03-19-15, 06:42 PM
  #153  
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Originally Posted by TheKillerPenguin View Post
Life is hard.
Life sucks, then you die.
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Old 03-19-15, 06:45 PM
  #154  
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Don't fail the wada IQ test. It isn't very hard.
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Old 03-19-15, 07:28 PM
  #155  
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is this ethical?**NSFW**
https://vimeo.com/16032105

Last edited by no1mad; 03-19-15 at 07:33 PM.
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Old 03-19-15, 08:24 PM
  #156  
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Originally Posted by wens View Post
And, you know, the same standard is applied to playing hs sports. And to usa swimming. And, I think one can safely assume, most of the other sports under the Olympic funding umbrella. ...
Well, no. My daughter (California CIF) never signed anything saying not reporting an alleged violation was a violation. I don't think she signed anything playing NCAA college ball as a minor (I did) and again, there was no clause to report alleged, or even report actual violations of teammates.
My wife (USA and college swimming) ditto.

Do you have a copy of such a thing in HS? I don't recall (just I don't recall) the minor had to agree to anything in HS soccer.
They are not the same.
They are not tested the same.

Last edited by Doge; 03-19-15 at 08:35 PM.
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Old 03-19-15, 08:45 PM
  #157  
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Originally Posted by spectastic View Post
is this ethical?**NSFW**
https://vimeo.com/16032105
jusdging from the video preview alone, I'm gonna go with NO.
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Old 03-19-15, 08:45 PM
  #158  
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Originally Posted by gsteinb View Post
oh please. if he was from someplace like Boston you'd write reference too (which you've done countless times already).

you misunderstand. I'm saying his source is likely a pack of crazy tiny dogs. This whole thing is absurd!
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Old 03-19-15, 08:53 PM
  #159  
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Originally Posted by Doge View Post
They are not the same.
They are not tested the same.
Man, find me anyone religious and tell me which book they go by and I'll find you 100 bits in that book they don't abide by. There is nothing that isn't fungible to the end user's preference when it comes down to it.
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Old 03-19-15, 08:55 PM
  #160  
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How many say rat on your teammate?
Or rat on an allegation against your teammate.

Last edited by Doge; 03-19-15 at 09:00 PM.
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Old 03-19-15, 09:09 PM
  #161  
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Originally Posted by Doge View Post
How many say rat on your teammate?
Or rat on an allegation against your teammate.
If my teammate was doping he wouldn't be my teammate anymore.
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Old 03-19-15, 09:49 PM
  #162  
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excuse me..

is this ethical?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=chnk4n80rEE
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Old 03-19-15, 10:00 PM
  #163  
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Originally Posted by Ygduf View Post
I guess my TT setup is UCI illegal, extensions too far forward. Were I DQd from something I would take it, but I still do it and if someone else with the arms of a 6'8" guy were also illegal I wouldn't hold it against him.
it's not a rule you need to worry about...unless/until you do an even that falls under those rules. that's only nationals or some big stage races (and then only in the P, P/1, or P/1/2 fields).

i personally go UCI legal all the time as i race at least one event that requires it...and i like to be adapted to that position. however, i see people show up to races i do all the time with UCI-illegal bikes. they have an advantage over mine, but that's ok. it's not immoral or illegal....or even unethical.

i think the UCI regs for amateurs are pretty dumb. also, while they are improving a bit w/r/t TT bikes, some body types are unfairly penalized (IMO).
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Old 03-19-15, 10:13 PM
  #164  
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Originally Posted by shovelhd View Post
If my teammate was doping he wouldn't be my teammate anymore.
Doping is addressed, as is sexual misconduct etc. as all of those are and should be reported and I don't have any issue with the wording. With doping, sexual misconduct we throw in reporting of allegations of things like tobacco use and overuse of alcohol is the issue.

So if you @Shovelhead had your teammate tell you they heard someone tell them a 50 year old USA cycling coach drank too much - you would be breaking the code of conduct if you didn't report it. And if your teammate drank too much - you have to report it.
If your teammate saw the mechanic give a puff on the cigarette to another USA cycling person you may have to report it.

Is there any other sport where an athlete has to agree to such things to play?
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Old 03-20-15, 03:41 AM
  #165  
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Originally Posted by Ygduf View Post
you misunderstand. I'm saying his source is likely a pack of crazy tiny dogs. This whole thing is absurd!
bygones. I did indeed misunderstand and thought you were calling us a pack of crazy tiny dogs.
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Old 03-20-15, 05:44 AM
  #166  
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Originally Posted by Doge View Post
How many say rat on your teammate?
Or rat on an allegation against your teammate.
...
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Old 03-20-15, 06:41 AM
  #167  
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Originally Posted by Doge View Post
Doping is addressed, as is sexual misconduct etc. as all of those are and should be reported and I don't have any issue with the wording. With doping, sexual misconduct we throw in reporting of allegations of things like tobacco use and overuse of alcohol is the issue.

So if you @Shovelhead had your teammate tell you they heard someone tell them a 50 year old USA cycling coach drank too much - you would be breaking the code of conduct if you didn't report it. And if your teammate drank too much - you have to report it.
If your teammate saw the mechanic give a puff on the cigarette to another USA cycling person you may have to report it.

Is there any other sport where an athlete has to agree to such things to play?
I couldn't tell you that. What I do know is that many sports other than cycling are signing up to be a part of the SafeSport program. This may be driving them to include enforcement at some level.

In general I think you have good intentions as you question USAC and their rules. Where I think you go astray is your insistence to test and define every possible edge case of every single rule, and use this forum as your bully pulpit. It's not creating good discussion. It is making you out to be a guy who flaunts authority and then screams when their interpretation of the rule or lack of strict enforcement is displayed. There is no instant replay in cycling (other than for scoring by officials) but there is a protest process and an appeal process. You would be better off using the official channels and updating the forum on how that goes. Otherwise you come off as "that guy". You don't want to be "that guy".
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Old 03-20-15, 07:02 AM
  #168  
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if one wanted to maintain anit-rat cred would they rather a kid report the drunken coach who's on the road trip with the kids or maintain that (staten island) moral high ground and keep lips zipped? It's like a koan.

I feel like I've fallen into the B roll of mob wives.
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Old 03-20-15, 07:04 AM
  #169  
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Originally Posted by botto View Post
i drug my kids on a plane. it's the considerate thing to do.
i just pretend i dont know mine and give their mother dirty looks
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Old 03-20-15, 08:07 AM
  #170  
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doge is most certainly "that guy"
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Old 03-20-15, 08:35 AM
  #171  
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Originally Posted by MDcatV View Post
i just pretend i dont know mine and give their mother dirty looks
that could be a premise for sitcom scene
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Old 03-20-15, 08:47 AM
  #172  
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Originally Posted by shovelhd View Post
Where I think you go astray is your insistence to test and define every possible edge case of every single rule, and use this forum as your bully pulpit. It's not creating good discussion. It is making you out to be a guy who flaunts authority and then screams when their interpretation of the rule or lack of strict enforcement is displayed.
I unfortunately think this is an overly-kind interpretation, viz:

Originally Posted by Doge View Post
So if you @Shovelhead had your teammate tell you they heard someone tell them a 50 year old USA cycling coach drank too much - you would be breaking the code of conduct if you didn't report it. And if your teammate drank too much - you have to report it.
If your teammate saw the mechanic give a puff on the cigarette to another USA cycling person you may have to report it.
All of these examples range from not necessarily correct to absolutely not correct. The code of conduct does NOT obligate the reporting of hearsay. The words are pretty clear: "witness to or party to." If a teammate tells me that he/she heard some coach was drunk at the hotel, or that so-and-so has said they're taking steroids or something, I am not violating the code of conduct if I do not report this. I may have some moral obligation to encourage the person telling me to go to relevant authorities. Or I may not. See, various factors such as my knowledge of the people involved, the alleged misconduct itself and my proximity to the situation lend themselves to consideration of what the proper action might be. This is what any human being must do in the course of their day-to-day life anyway.

It's obvious that it's not really possible to precisely codify the proper ethical response to every possible situation. You are presenting this simple fact as though it is big and important and imperils the entire enterprise. But by doing so, you're misunderstanding - seemingly willfully, since you keep returning to the same well - the purpose of having a code of conduct. The code of conduct is statement that the organization makes that ethics matter and that there is a desire to create a culture that values ethics over cronyism. Hence the clause where not reporting witnessed violations is itself a violation of the code of conduct. The content of the code tells us more about what the organization values. In the case of USAC, there's a hell of a lot in there about the protection and safety of juniors. That seems only right, especially in an organization with at least one infamous case in its history of a person in a high position doping junior riders. Overall, the USAC code of conduct isn't even all that strict - it does not, as some organizations would, forbid coaches from consuming alcohol while on USAC business or in front of their riders.

You've hit upon the fact that no code of conduct removes your responsibility to think carefully, in some cases, about what the right thing to do is. Good for you, but that's 101-level stuff. Yet, on that same elementary level, you seem to have a great deal of difficulty with the idea of "ratting out" a friend. Hoo boy is that troubling. "Don't rat" is an essential element of cultures that allow unethical behavior and abuse to flourish behind closed doors. It's one of the sacred principles of omerta in the peloton, the Mob, abusive fraternities. Charming company to keep, really.

Last edited by grolby; 03-20-15 at 01:45 PM.
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Old 03-20-15, 09:18 AM
  #173  
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interestingly enough I'm presently involved in a committee to establish a code of ethics for my foundation's teacher training community. some of the issues that come up are cultural interpretations and norms (we have a world wide community) and how they relate to established moral precepts. For instance, not using intoxicants to heedlessness is at times interpreted to mean don't get drunk and others it shouldn't pass your lips. Would one be breaking a precept if they have an occasional glass of wine? And what of the precept not to take life? If one eats meat are they breaking the precept? The Buddha himself wasn't a vegetarian, and in fact a schism formed during his time when his cousin advocated for a strict vegetarian community. The important issue is that a moral code such as these don't undermine the purpose of a community, it's an inquiry in support of it. So that what transpires in relation to might be fair and wholesome.
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Old 03-20-15, 09:21 AM
  #174  
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Originally Posted by Doge View Post
Doping is addressed, as is sexual misconduct etc. as all of those are and should be reported and I don't have any issue with the wording. With doping, sexual misconduct we throw in reporting of allegations of things like tobacco use and overuse of alcohol is the issue.

So if you @Shovelhead had your teammate tell you they heard someone tell them a 50 year old USA cycling coach drank too much - you would be breaking the code of conduct if you didn't report it. And if your teammate drank too much - you have to report it.
If your teammate saw the mechanic give a puff on the cigarette to another USA cycling person you may have to report it.

Is there any other sport where an athlete has to agree to such things to play?
NCAA rulebook is 400 pages. Read it and let me know. Also read the honor codes at every university involved and let me know.

tl:dr yes.
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Old 03-20-15, 09:24 AM
  #175  
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Originally Posted by grolby View Post
All of these examples range from not necessarily correct to absolutely not correct. The code of conduct does NOT obligate the reporting of hearsay. The words are pretty clear: "witness to or party to." If a teammate tells me that he/she heard some coach was drunk at the hotel, or that so-and-so has said they're taking steroids or something, I am not violating the code of conduct if I do not report this. I may have some moral obligation to encourage the person telling me to go to relevant authorities. Or I may not. See, various factors such as my knowledge of the people involved, the alleged misconduct itself and my proximity to the situation lend themselves to consideration of what the proper action might be. This is what any human being must do in the course of their day-to-day life anyway.

It's obvious that it's not really possible to precisely codify the proper ethical response to every possible situation. You are presenting this simple fact as though it is big and important and imperils the entire enterprise. But by doing so, you're misunderstanding - seemingly willfully, since you keep returning to the same well - the purpose of having a code of conduct. The code of conduct is statement that the organization makes that ethics matter and that there is a desire to create a culture that values ethics over cronyism. Hence the clause where reporting witnessed violations is itself a violation of the code of conduct. The content of the code tells us more about what the organization values. In the case of USAC, there's a hell of a lot in there about the protection and safety of juniors. That seems only right, especially in an organization with at least one infamous case in its history of a person in a high position doping junior riders. Overall, the USAC code of conduct isn't even all that strict - it does not, as some organizations would, forbid coaches from consuming alcohol while on USAC business or in front of their riders.

You've hit upon the fact that no code of conduct removes your responsibility to think carefully, in some cases, about what the right thing to do is. Good for you, but that's 101-level stuff. Yet, on that same elementary level, you seem to have a great deal of difficulty with the idea of "ratting out" a friend. Hoo boy is that troubling. "Don't rat" is an essential element of cultures that allow unethical behavior and abuse to flourish behind closed doors. It's one of the sacred principles of omerta in the peloton, the Mob, abusive fraternities. Charming company to keep, really.




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