I really wasn't even talking about the relative merits of a custom frame at all, and the point of my post was not to offend Riv owners. If you go to their website, and read their "about us" section, Grant Peterson basically says that the no-nonsense purity of road bikes of the 70s and 80s were the inspiration for his bicycles. My "point" was that there are plenty of nice bikes from the 70s and 80s to be had for a song if you can not afford anything Riv has for sale. So to put it in the simplest terms possible, one may participate in Riv's design aesthetic without spending a ton of money. As far as having an earth shaker of a reason for posting, well, look at some of these other threads, Cochise. If you are a Riv owner, I'm happy that you have a nice bike and I'm glad you're financially stable enough to afford one. I did not intend to offend by this thread.