Originally Posted by Rowan

We have been through the liability and insurance mill in Australia in the past three years. Basically, because of world-wide problems with the insurance industry (claims, losses, etc), premiums for community organisations to run simple events such as fairs, festivals, sporting events, even just crocheting (!) tripled or quadrupled or worse. Even more seriously, insurers withdrew from offering policies in certain areas, including outdoor recreation. In cycling, for example there really is only one company offering coverage to cycling clubs, and unless you go through the national cycling organisation as an affilitate, the premiums are exhorbitant.

Effectively, many organisations were left with nothing to do but cancel events. It was a disgusting mess. The insurers blamed the legal system for enabling uncapped damages awards. The legal system blamed the insurers for being greedy. There has been some tort reform instituted by governments here, and that has helped stabilise the situation somewhat. But the premiums aren't going to return to their previous level, and a claims history may well result in policy cancellation and not being able get coverage anywhere else.

The organisation for which I work had the same difficulties as everyone else. In the end, we were advised legally that if we wanted to operate without P/L, we'd better have $15,000 (the proposed premium) tucked away anyway as a contingency, just to get legal advice and lodge a response to a writ in the court. Under our incorporation structure, club directors are held responsible; if there is no insurance, their houses and other property are up for grabs in the legal feeding frenzy.

I have learned to err on the side of caution. Your duty of care to any group as a leader -- irrespective of whether members of that group are paying or not -- is paramount. Planning to reduce risk to a minimum for that group goes a long way to overcoming the possibility of legal action because nothing will happen.

I so often hear people say: "I'll take responsibility for my own actions. You don't need to worry". Sadly, these are the very people I DO worry about. They seem well meaning, but when faced with quadraplegia from a broken neck sustained in an organised activity, they (or their family if it is a fatality) are going to look for anyone they can to sue -- starting with the organisers and going right through to the property owner -- so they can have some quality of life.

wpflem, it doesn't matter how much money you have and ultimately whether you have PL cover. I don't suppose you can get much broker than broke if you don't have any assets and someone sues you. Remember, D-Fox is representing a church group, and anyone hurt on one of his outings might just think of suing the church at a national level because churches are perceived as very wealthy institutions. See, it's not that simple. And the duty of care is on D-Fox to look after his church's interests as well as the participants.

Further, just being part of a serious incident can have an impact on the leader/organiser. If there is really serious injury or death, the intervention of the police will be required. Traumatic enough. Maybe even a coroner's inquiry. Even more trauma, way ahead in the future. Then the possibility of being sued.

I know of several incidents involving school children who have died on outings. In one case, one of the leaders involved committed suicide some time afterwards because he couldn't get over what happened. It destroys families on both sides. It's horrible.

I am not bein insulting here, but older people need the same care and attention as children because many of the issues are the same on outings. Things like dementia, physical abilities and as mentioned ailments such as diabetes and asthma, while not directly comparable, can have the same outcomes.

Risk assessment and reduction is worth it on so many front. It doesn't require an ambulance and police escort. What it does need is access to those things if something does go wrong.

Also, you mentioned your were setting up a shop. Your interests certainly will be protected by having PL insurance, professional and product insurance, as well as damage and other insurances. Oh, and even more so if you advertise and promote any rides that start at your shop.