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work4bike 09-06-11 05:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aussie_Al (Post 13181959)
wow thats nuts - some where in Florida - why do you think that is so?? (not trolling just curious)

Here's some links: http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/...s-deaths_N.htm and http://www.bikecommuters.com/2009/04...-for-cyclists/

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aussie_Al (Post 13181959)
why do you think that is so??

It's not that Florida has any worse road conditions than most other places, at least from my perspective, but I've been riding all over the U.S. for over 20 years, so maybe I'm just blind to it -- I can ride anywhere.

I see a lot of non-cyclists do crazy-stupid things in traffic, that's the primary cause based on my observations, albeit non-scientific. And of course since the weather is nice here there's more riding throughout the year. So between kids, homeless and mindless joy-riders they make up the most of the bike related accidents.

Every year I hear many stories just on the local news channel of cyclists being hit by a car.

catmandew52 09-06-11 08:11 AM

2 Attachment(s)
:eek::eek:
Quote:

Originally Posted by john gault (Post 13176256)
So basically you don't ride? Not an option for me; I've lived in a lot of non-cycling towns, actually I've never lived in a cycling-friendly town, and thus have had some scary commutes. And now I'm supposedly living in the death capital of the U.S. for cyclists, but I still ride.

If it's really as bad as you say, which I doubt, then why don't you contact http://www.lmb.org/ and work with them to make improvements. Part of my riding style is to exercise my right on the road, but in a non-hostile manner, i.e. would never partcipate in a critical mass ride, but at the same time I don't ride on sidewalks, no matter how many motorists yell for me to get on the sidewalk. By riding on the sidewalk you have given the victory to ass-holes.

I still ride, just ultra defensively. Sidewalk in the downtown area and for a mile north is the legal posted bike path. The route I am going to take to a specific destination basically determines which bike I will ride. If I know most of the trip is on the gravel shoulder or grass where the is no shoulder Ill take the MTB. Anywhere else I can use the road bike or hybrid.
The are a lot of proposed bike usage plans but they don't go into effect until somewhere around 2030, if at all. Most of my riding is on a 2 lane, no passing, road that is a heavy gravel hauler route. They can't move over to pass, and I doubt they could stop if they saw you in time( road is twisty and hilly). So, I'll just ride FRAP and be around for another day.

added: Once you are out of city center, you will almost never see anyone on the sidewalk anyway. This is SE Michigan where even 7 yr olds drive.
http://www.digtriad.com/news/article...se-In-Michigan:eek::eek:


This is my main route, about 10:00 am, with relatively low traffic volume.

Laserman 09-07-11 09:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by catmandew52 (Post 13173053)
Where I live/ride part or the East-West bike path goes thru the city center. The posted bike path is on the city sidewalks. Why? Because if you ride on the road you will get hit, run-over or killed. So, you just ride at a very slow pace.
If I need to go North or South it gets tricky. Sidewalks or gravel shoulders. No bike path yet, but there is one proposd for around 2030 AD. Telegraph Rd. here in SE Mich is one of only three rds that allow me N-S access.
The only VC's you will see on Telegraph, are the ones about to die.
They don't call it Bloody Telegraph for nothing. You can't share the road with drivers who truly believe (based on statements given to local LE's) that you were going too slow, so they had no other choice than to hit you. I'll ride the sidwalks thank you.

I live less than a mile from Telegraph in the western 'burbs of Detroit and I have NEVER seen anyone trying to ride VC on Telegraph and frankly only a fool would try it.
Fortunately around here there are a lot of better alternatives for N-S travel and I have been as far north as Southfield and as far south as Flat Rock without having to travel more than a couple of miles on the sidewalks (where they even exist].
Given a choice I prefer riding on the roads but I will not compromise my safety because some pundit has observed some limited part of the world and decides to declare that the road is the only viable option.

catmandew52 09-07-11 09:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Laserman (Post 13190581)
I live less than a mile from Telegraph in the western 'burbs of Detroit and I have NEVER seen anyone trying to ride VC on Telegraph and frankly only a fool would try it.
Fortunately around here there are a lot of better alternatives for N-S travel and I have been as far north as Southfield and as far south as Flat Rock without having to travel more than a couple of miles on the sidewalks (where they even exist].
Given a choice I prefer riding on the roads but I will not compromise my safety because some pundit has observed some limited part of the world and decides to declare that the road is the only viable option.

Thank You.
I know two people in the downriver area who are car-free. Bicycles are their primary modes of transport. One of them is a vociferous proponent of VC. Neither will try to ride VC on Telegraph.

ChasH 09-09-11 07:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oban_kobi (Post 12322996)
If you're coming off a bike path and want to get to an intersection to cross the road more safely, do it. Most other cases, wtf are you doing on it?
/end thread?

This is the extent of my sidewalk riding in the past forty-odd years as an adult, and it has happened only recently now that I've got my hands on a fancy new MTB. I'm not saying I would NEVER, EVER do it in another situation but there would have to be a very good justification, not involving laziness or simple selfishness.

I like this thread. I know a bit about managing risk as a longtime motorcyclist and pilot (small aircraft) but I admit to becoming increasingly uncomfortable about riding a bicycle on the roads around here, even though we have quite a few cycle lanes in San Diego. This is partly, but only partly, why I'm getting into MTB'ing. Maybe I'm just over-reacting, after all much of the risk in cycling can also be managed (esp. with use of a mirror). My main fear, on a motorbike or in a plane or on a bicycle, is being taken out from behind. Being told by ATC "unidentified target at 6 o'clock, same heading, your altitude, closing rapidly" can bring you out in a cold sweat. Especially when followed by, "... now at 4 miles, heading and altitude unchanged". On a bicycle noone looks after you like this.

Thanks for the many well written and knowledgable posts in this thread. Even this old dog might learn a new trick or two .....

Eclectus 09-09-11 09:19 PM

I mostly ride on the street/road, but if I'm in Overland Park, and rush-hour traffic is bumper-to-bumper, on Quivira Rd, I take the sidewalk. I don't think I'm going to be hit on the road, but I would totally mess up the traffic flow. In Wichita, riding with a Dinotte taillight, find that drivers have room to move over and pass me.

On the sidewalk, cross-intersection drivers may or may not stop before the crosswalk line. You have to be observant. Sometimes you can go ahead of them, sometimes you have to go behind them.

work4bike 09-10-11 07:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChasH (Post 13203660)
This is the extent of my sidewalk riding in the past forty-odd years as an adult, and it has happened only recently now that I've got my hands on a fancy new MTB. I'm not saying I would NEVER, EVER do it in another situation but there would have to be a very good justification, not involving laziness or simple selfishness.

I like this thread. I know a bit about managing risk as a longtime motorcyclist and pilot (small aircraft) but I admit to becoming increasingly uncomfortable about riding a bicycle on the roads around here, even though we have quite a few cycle lanes in San Diego. This is partly, but only partly, why I'm getting into MTB'ing. Maybe I'm just over-reacting, after all much of the risk in cycling can also be managed (esp. with use of a mirror). My main fear, on a motorbike or in a plane or on a bicycle, is being taken out from behind. Being told by ATC "unidentified target at 6 o'clock, same heading, your altitude, closing rapidly" can bring you out in a cold sweat. Especially when followed by, "... now at 4 miles, heading and altitude unchanged". On a bicycle noone looks after you like this.

Thanks for the many well written and knowledgable posts in this thread. Even this old dog might learn a new trick or two .....

I agree, I'm very concerned with my "six" and feel extrememly vulnerable without a mirror; to me it's an essential accessory.

Aussie_Al 09-12-11 06:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by john gault (Post 13184716)
Here's some links: http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/...s-deaths_N.htm and http://www.bikecommuters.com/2009/04...-for-cyclists/


It's not that Florida has any worse road conditions than most other places, at least from my perspective, but I've been riding all over the U.S. for over 20 years, so maybe I'm just blind to it -- I can ride anywhere.

I see a lot of non-cyclists do crazy-stupid things in traffic, that's the primary cause based on my observations, albeit non-scientific. And of course since the weather is nice here there's more riding throughout the year. So between kids, homeless and mindless joy-riders they make up the most of the bike related accidents.

Every year I hear many stories just on the local news channel of cyclists being hit by a car.

Thanks John ..pretty much what I figured :-(

Stealthammer 09-16-11 07:59 AM

Bicycles can be as dangerous to pedestrians as cars are to us. Sidewalks are for pedestrian traffic and tricycles. Bike trails are shared access for pedestrians and bicycles. Roads are for shared access for cars and bicycles. Simply rules. If you want to be respected on the roads, respect users of the sidewalks as well as the roads.

If a sidewalk needs to be redesignated as a bike path for safety reasons petition to get it changed or buy a car of paint to warn pedestrians that thatsection is shared use.

If anyone wants to complain about "defacing" public property, I suggest that it is simply a "non-violent" social protest against the non-responsive local government. I guarantee that most pedestrians will appreciate the warning rather that having a cyclist blast past unexpectedly.

Stealthammer 09-27-11 02:59 PM

Sidewalks in the US are NOT bike paths and are far to narrow to be used for them.

Eclectus 10-03-11 04:50 PM

Sidewwalk riding vs. street riding, figure out each of their "rules". Sidewalk riding, including wide-pathway MUPs, be ready to stop. Pedestrians, dog-walkers, slow down. Cross streets and driveway exits, look at what cars are doing. Laws requiring stopping before sidewalks and crosswalks are often ignored. You decide whether you want to be inconvenienced by having to slow down, or being involved in a collision.

Street/road riding, use a taillight, maybe a good blinking headlight. If you can afford it, check out DiNotte, or something equivalent. These aren't legally required in the daytime, but they do alert drivers. For the DiNotte taillight, it's a "What's that ahead?" wakeup/ alert device.

At night, a Monkeylectric side-illumination device is a really nice light.

Fundamentally, if you ride a lot, you want to send an alert to motor vehicle drivers, "I'm in this space." The vast majority of drivers will give you your space. Dinotte taillights are really good at this, if you ride on-streeet/on road.

EpicSchwinn 10-12-11 03:41 PM

This was published in my school paper today... oof

Our city does have roads where cycling on the street is illegal which explains cyclists moving up and out of the way. But to say the safest thing is for bicyclists to ride on sidewalks all the time???
http://i.imgur.com/RI3kU.jpg

No Whey 10-13-11 11:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EpicSchwinn (Post 13355838)
This was published in my school paper today... oof

Our city does have roads where cycling on the street is illegal which explains cyclists moving up and out of the way. But to say the safest thing is for bicyclists to ride on sidewalks all the time???

Do you have time to write a reasoned response and send it to the paper? You should.

work4bike 10-15-11 01:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EpicSchwinn (Post 13355838)
This was published in my school paper today... oof

Our city does have roads where cycling on the street is illegal which explains cyclists moving up and out of the way. But to say the safest thing is for bicyclists to ride on sidewalks all the time???
http://i.imgur.com/RI3kU.jpg

This article is exactly why I'm against establishment of bikepaths.

FastRod 10-15-11 08:36 PM

This is just my own opinion and based on personal experiences. I do ride on the road and I do ride on the pavement "to me" I feel that riding on the pavement is safer as in I don't have to worry so much of a bloody car ramming you from the back. I feel that the pavement is safer even though there are more incidents that will happen for example cars coming in and out of their driveways and because drivers expect slow moving pedestrians instead of cyclist. I ring my bell and overtake on the grass when passing pedestrians thus causing less problems with them ( some do purposely not move ) .

To me knowing your route and the dangers of your commute makes your commute safer not whether you ride on the road or not but I do agree that if a person does not know his or her route and is going at same pace on the pavement and the road, the pavement would be more dangerous due the the number of incidents can occur but to me their not life threatening like cars but their my own opinions based on what I believe. Feel free to object anything I say with facts or your own opinions.

FastRod 10-15-11 08:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by john gault (Post 13368852)
This article is exactly why I'm against establishment of bikepaths.

In Perth, there are a lot of bike paths and actually they help a lot. Their pretty much the safest thing to be on reason being we have bike paths that runs parallel beside the highway so their straight and allows you to get to the city quicker ( no traffic lights =D )

Eclectus 10-23-11 12:20 PM

I have a couple problems with riding the sidewalk, and so-called parallel-to-street "bike paths" that have been glommed onto by pedestrians.

Two/three-abreast walkers, dog-walkers with extendo leashes totally blocking the "bike path". "There's a walking space right here, it's meant for us." Not what it was funded for...

It's okay. But then you have to deal with car-and-truck drivers who glibly illegally cross over the sidewalk/crosswalk line, even though it is illegal, they never get ticketed, and learn to stop. So, if you're riding a bike on the sidewalk/street-parallel "bike path", you have to stop for them to accommodate their illegal behavior. If you are on the street, riding right-way, at least they see you. Because they are looking at in-the-street cross traffic.

work4bike 11-08-11 08:35 AM

Here's an article that shows states with laws concerning bikes on sidewalks. However, what I found interesting is that the laws (not just on sidewalks) treat cyclists the same as motorists with respect to right of way with pedestrians. In other words, although they don't say it directly, pedestrians always have the right of way. http://bicycling.com/blogs/roadright...nd_pedestrians

hagen2456 11-08-11 04:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by john gault (Post 13467146)
Here's an article that shows states with laws concerning bikes on sidewalks. However, what I found interesting is that the laws (not just on sidewalks) treat cyclists the same as motorists with respect to right of way with pedestrians. In other words, although they don't say it directly, pedestrians always have the right of way. http://bicycling.com/blogs/roadright...nd_pedestrians

Could you explain to me how the suggestion that bikers should ride on the sidewalks, will make you be against bike paths?

work4bike 11-08-11 07:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hagen2456 (Post 13469425)
Could you explain to me how the suggestion that bikers should ride on the sidewalks, will make you be against bike paths?

I'm not sure what you're saying. I was just linking an article about states and their laws about sidewalk riding. What caught my eye was the last paragraph, which applies regardless if you're riding on a sidewalk, bikelane, bikepath or the road. I guess it caught my eye because around my area I'm always having to look out for pedestrians and I ride in the road.

copied here:

Everywhere

Youíll likely encounter pedestrians who break the rules. But even if you have the right of way, itís your legal duty to prevent a collision if possible.

hagen2456 11-09-11 03:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by john gault (Post 13470277)
I'm not sure what you're saying. I was just linking an article about states and their laws about sidewalk riding. What caught my eye was the last paragraph, which applies regardless if you're riding on a sidewalk, bikelane, bikepath or the road. I guess it caught my eye because around my area I'm always having to look out for pedestrians and I ride in the road.

copied here:

Everywhere

You’ll likely encounter pedestrians who break the rules. But even if you have the right of way, it’s your legal duty to prevent a collision if possible.

Oh. Sorry. I quoted the wrong post. Should have been #906!

work4bike 11-09-11 06:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hagen2456 (Post 13471168)
Oh. Sorry. I quoted the wrong post. Should have been #906!

In post #906 I was expressing my concern of giving people (who want cyclists off the road) a foot to stand on, i.e. more bike paths will give them a foundation to get us off the road. And it's not just that article that I copied in the above post. Check out this thread http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread...if-path-exists

P.S. There is no such thing as a bike path, they're all MUPs, and if we're forced off the roads that means we're relegated to narrow paths in which we must bob&weave everyone, because pedestrians always have the right of way.

hagen2456 11-09-11 08:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by john gault (Post 13471346)
In post #906 I was expressing my concern of giving people (who want cyclists off the road) a foot to stand on, i.e. more bike paths will give them a foundation to get us off the road. And it's not just that article that I copied in the above post. Check out this thread http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread...if-path-exists

P.S. There is no such thing as a bike path, they're all MUPs, and if we're forced off the roads that means we're relegated to narrow paths in which we must bob&weave everyone, because pedestrians always have the right of way.

Okay, I guess that discussion had perhaps better be kept elsewhere. Suffice to say that what works is a matter of how you actually do things. Bike paths/tracks/whatever can work beautifully, or they may be almost impossible to use. The existence of crappy bike infrastructure certainly shouldn't in itself be enough to make one state that bikes belong in the (car) lanes. One cyclist will say that bikes belong in the road because that's safest and because it's our right as bikers to be there. Both statements are highly contestable, to say the least, and I think one would do right in recognizing this. Others will say that you'll never get a larger share of the potential cyclists to actually bike when they have to do so in often heavy and fast traffic. :)

Aussie_Al 11-14-11 07:10 AM

wow 37 pages and 915 posts - this is certainly a hot topic for most of us! Just goes to show what we are passionate about here

Fargo Wolf 11-14-11 08:42 AM

For me, it depends on the situation and what part of town I'm in. It's extremely rare that I need to take to the sidewalk, except for a very short stretch downtown between a park and a mall parking lot.


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