Today's encounter with turning school bus
 

A little close call today at an intersestion where a yellow school bus was making right turn almost toward me, leaving me smaller and smaller room. Because of its (long) length, it could have cornered me into a fatal situation. See attached picture (blue arrow is me on bike, school bus moving from position 1 to 2 to 3). This was all within half minute or so, and as I remember my light just turned green, so probably the yellow bus was turning when he had yellow/red light (catching the light).

I think the driver should be more careful?

If I'm interpreting your diagram correctly(?), then the school bus made its right turn on its yellow light, which gives him the legal right of way to clear the intersection. You then entered the intersection from the bottom of the diagram and overtook the school bus before it could get back into its lane, or do I have this wrong? If that's what happened, I'd say it is you who needs to be more careful and not enter the intersection until vehicles that have a prior right of way get clear.

I crossed the intersection before the school bus made the turn. It suddenly came at me when I was next to the storage container. I crossed it absolutely after the pedestrian light became "Walk" (I often watch the pedestrian's light instead of the red/yellow/green overhead because there is count-down for pedestrian's walk light), which must be after the school bus's light turned red?

So did the school bus make a right on red after you crossed on a green? I'm kind of confused about the timing here (obviously).

Possibly. The order of the events is:
Pedestrian's light turns "Walk" => I cross => I'm next to storage container => bus making fast turn onto the street I was on with wide angle toward me (it showed up on on my rear right, never before me).

cyclists getting clipped by a vehicle turning right is a way too common event. The "right hook" is something that all cyclists must be vigilant in avoiding. most drivers once they pull up to a red light (or yellow) do not check their right mirror before turning. If a bike is there, or coming up along side cars waiting for the light, whamo.

careful out there.

maybe I misunderstood your description of how it went down but it doesnt sound as if the bus driver was driving recklessly or unlawfully.

I don't think this is right hook; I thought right hook is if I were on the right side of the bus (the inner side of the "hook")?

Agreed that the bus driver should have paid attention to any traffic ahead of him (incl. you) and have kept a safe clearance.

Was the pedestrian 'WALK' signal on the crosswalk to your left or to your right (or both)? If there was only a crosswalk to your left then it's possible that the bus had a green right-turn arrow at the same time that you saw the ped. WALK sign. But if there was a WALK sign to your right and/or you had a green light then the bus must have made a quick start after a right-on-red after stop or he ran the red without coming to a stop first. In either case he shouldn't have crowded you.

But I disagree a bit about your concern above. Unless the bus was wider at the rear than at the front (not at all common), then it wasn't really in a position to corner you. The moment you felt the bus was getting too close you had the option to slow down and stop. Once you're stopped the bus can't move its rear end over toward you without steering the front end to the left and hitting the storage container.

I must have not understood you correctly, were you on the right shoulder behind the bus, then turned right onto the right the shoulder on the intersecting street?? must not because that would put you in the danger zone (inner side).

either way. be extra careful. drivers are not usually looking for cyclists. glad it worked out ok this time.

re-reading some of the posts it sounds as if you were on the right shoulder, then turned right, and went to the left shoulder of the intersecting street (riding against traffic). Why would you do this?

It usually takes me a few seconds to get across an intersection, although it would depend a bit on whether I have a rolling start, or had stopped for the light.

It sounds like the bus may have done a right turn on red which is typically legal if there is no traffic. If it was a right turn on a stale yellow, the bike rider should have seen it and held back a bit.

It is not uncommon for drivers to ignore the existence of bicycles on a shoulder as part of traffic patterns.

Nonetheless, one should always aware that buses, trucks, and large vehicles cut corners on the inside, and swing wide, and they should be given a little extra space. And, the drivers, of course, should be aware of that too.

Based on this I would say that it is as much your fault as it is the bus drivers. The bus driver should not be making a fast turn and try to catch the last bit of yellow/red light. Even if its barely legal. But you should not be following pedestrian's light either. Where I live pedestrians light always comes on a few seconds before road users. If you follow pedestrians light then it is at your own risk.

Backing off the vehicles with very rough assumptions about speeds, would have the bus starting his turn well before you were in the pinch point. Likely he misjudged your speed, or simply figured you'd use some common sense and slow to avoid a collision.

It's not a question of right and wrong, it's about using common sense and judgement to avoid a possible collision, regardless of right of way.

I assume that you did in fact slow to avoid hitting the bus, the only difference being that you might have been able to do it sooner.

Maybe I'm jaded because I've been riding and driving in NYC for 40+ years, and am used to the concept that who ever's first wins.

Driver didn't hit you in a non-incident. There's nothing for the driver to have been more careful about?

Its a common practice for large vehicles to "square off" a turn to clear the inside corner of a turn. Once in a great while I will have someone whos day dreaming or skittish freak out when they see a truck coming at them, not realizing I'm fully aware of their presence, in complete control of the situation, and they're not in the slightest danger.

Thanks for the replies. To answer some of the questions, I was just riding along the left side of a one-way street; the school bus turned from a one-way avenue (Madison avenue) onto the street. The pedestrian's walk signal that I was looking at was probably on the left since I was on the left of the street. I get the consensus is that I should just be very careful regardless if the driver had fault, which I totally agree (I post about it here just to hear some discussion). I do need to change the habit of watching only the pedestrian's count-down signal without looking at the traffic light.

One question that comes to my mind: You talk about the pedestrian signal but there is no mention of the traffic light. If you are on a bicycle you are not a pedestrian and you should not proceed through the intersection until the traffic light turns green. As well even though you were on a one way street, the normal position for a bicycle is on the right hand side of the street, not the left.

Yes I realize sometimes the pedestrian signal can be different from the traffic light.

About riding on the left or right side: actually here in Manhattan the bike lanes are mostly on the left side of the street.

I can't for the life of me understand why anyone, at any time, under any circumstances, would go through an intersection without being aware of cross traffic. This applies to driving, but doubly to pedestrians or cyclists.

Yellow light, red light, green light, walk signal, don't walk signal. It doesn't matter. You really go through an intersection without looking both ways? Well then, there you have it, we now know why you ended up in that situation. Maybe in a very technical sense, you weren't at fault, but I will say that crossing an intersection without being aware of cross traffic is just plain dumb. I apologize for being harsh, but I think most of us learned this as children. Sorry. But now you know, I hope.

So that's basic common sense. Added to this is being aware, as a cyclist, that the container was causing a potential pinch point and hazard. What an experienced and aware cyclist would probably have done is: looked both ways and seen the bus and known it was a larger vehicle with a wider turning radius. Then looked ahead and seen the pinch point caused by the container. Then known, because of common sense that there would be a potential problem, and therefore waited to see how the bus's turn went.

This is an instantaneous, almost intuitive process once you've had some on the road experience in traffic (not only as a cyclist, but as a driver or pedestrian).

All in all, I think you were riding unsafely for the conditions and the bus was driving normally for a bus.

Thanks Camilo. Reminds me of another thread I started about being passed next to a parked truck. Thanks to the comments there, I'm slightly better now at foreseeing and avoiding potentially dangerous situation; this thread will help me further.

Vol, I might sound arrogant about this, but really, it's just a series of mistakes over about 40 years that makes all this stuff automatic to me. When you're an old coot, you can post the same sort of pontifications. Cheers!

Nice old coot :D

I find school buses the most dangerous thing I face on the small country roads. I have been pushed of the road and into the brush a number of times. The driver passes with room and starts moving back over before finishing the pass.

You certainly do, because you are not a pedestrian and signals that pertain to pedestrians are not your concern other than to prevent you from injuring someone who is walking

my 2 cents, obey the "traffic" light not the "pedestrian" light