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“Must Pass Cyclist” Motorist Mentality – Do cyclists encourage it?

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“Must Pass Cyclist” Motorist Mentality – Do cyclists encourage it?

Old 07-01-15, 02:09 PM
  #251  
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Originally Posted by Chris516 View Post

While cyclists' have a respect for pedestrians'. Motorists' don't have a respect for cyclists'.
Sheeeeeeeit, yeah right.......

While not every day, I've seen cyclists treat pedestrians as nothing more than meat pylons more than I care to remember.... In Seattle no less.

And I find respectful motorists are the rule, not the exception. One can't judge any group by its failures.

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Old 07-01-15, 02:38 PM
  #252  
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Originally Posted by kickstart View Post
Sheeeeeeeit, yeah right.......

While not every day, I've seen cyclists treat pedestrians as nothing more than meat pylons more than I care to remember.... In Seattle no less.

And I find respectful motorists are the rule, not the exception. One can't judge any group by its failures.
but you can judge all cyclists?

at least one can argue that (motor)cyclists realize they will lose any confrontation, not all are 'aware' but most are
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Old 07-01-15, 03:10 PM
  #253  
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Originally Posted by italktocats View Post
but you can judge all cyclists?
Heck no, and I suspect there may be fewer bad ones per group capita due to natural selection.
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Old 07-01-15, 03:59 PM
  #254  
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Originally Posted by kickstart View Post
Sheeeeeeeit, yeah right.......

While not every day, I've seen cyclists treat pedestrians as nothing more than meat pylons more than I care to remember.... In Seattle no less.

And I find respectful motorists are the rule, not the exception. One can't judge any group by its failures.
Do you see pedestrians getting killed by cyclists', like cyclists' getting killed by motorists'.
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Old 07-01-15, 04:16 PM
  #255  
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Originally Posted by Chris516 View Post
Do you see pedestrians getting killed by cyclists', like cyclists' getting killed by motorists'.
And any collision that does not result in death is meaningless. Does this hold for auto/bike interactions as well?
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Old 07-01-15, 04:37 PM
  #256  
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Originally Posted by Chris516 View Post
While cyclists' have a respect for pedestrians'. Motorists' don't have a respect for cyclists'.
To be fair, it is very common to see bicyclists show the same lack of respect towards pedestrians on roadways, sidewalks, and (especially) MUPs as motorists have towards bicyclists on roadways.
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Old 07-01-15, 04:39 PM
  #257  
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Originally Posted by AlmostTrick View Post
It's quite simple, actually.

Cyclist's in the lane teach motorists that cyclists will sometimes be in the lane, and they will need to adjust their vehicles speed and/or lane position accordingly.

Cyclist's who always hug the curb, edge, or gutter, teach motorists that they can almost always Pass Pass Pass cyclists asap no matter the conditions... and get upset if one dares to slow them down for even a few seconds.

More cyclists controlling more lanes more often (when appropriate) would benefit everyone.
This.
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Old 07-01-15, 04:48 PM
  #258  
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Originally Posted by Chris516 View Post
Do you see pedestrians getting killed by cyclists', like cyclists' getting killed by motorists'.
Fortunately I don't "see" either, but have seen minor incidents perpetrated by both.
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Old 07-01-15, 05:34 PM
  #259  
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Originally Posted by kickstart View Post
So, basically you're saying others should do what makes them and uncomfortable so you can feel more comfortable....
Not really. I'm fine with anyone doing what makes them feel comfortable. I just feel most do what they do out of ignorance. They don't know they have a right to use (what they consider) a "car" lane in a manner that may hold up a motorist for a few seconds. They were never taught, have not read about it, and seldom seen anyone actually do it. So they assume it is illegal, dangerous, and will upset motorists.

Example: I ride some narrow two lane roads where I deem it unsafe to share the lane with a car. So I ride somewhere between right and left tire track, depending on road and traffic conditions. (think blind curves, hills, or ONCOMING cars) Motorists see they can't possibly squeeze past me early, from great distance. This gives them plenty of time to plan ahead. And most do the right thing, and everyone is safe. They might still curse to themselves (or occasionally to me) but I'm ok with that because it doesn't hurt. That whole sticks and car bumpers may break my bones, but honks and names will never hurt me, thing.

On the other hand, practically every last cyclist I see on the same road, places themselves mere inches from the right edge. Motorists come up to them at full speed, thinking the path is clear, and either buzz the cyclist or jam on their brakes at the last moment once they figure out the gap is too tight. Nobody is safe, and everyone gets upset.

I believe these cyclists aren't aware that it's legal to position themselves farther left, that in some instances it can be safer, and that their edge riding behavior is actually training motorists to always attempt to squeeze past cyclists, even when it may not be safe to do so.

I've seen enough close calls due to gutter hugging. And controlled enough lanes to know it is safe and effective. I think it's best to get the word out, and give riders options that they previously did not have.
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Old 07-01-15, 07:22 PM
  #260  
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Originally Posted by AlmostTrick View Post
Not really. I'm fine with anyone doing what makes them feel comfortable. I just feel most do what they do out of ignorance. They don't know they have a right to use (what they consider) a "car" lane in a manner that may hold up a motorist for a few seconds. They were never taught, have not read about it, and seldom seen anyone actually do it. So they assume it is illegal, dangerous, and will upset motorists.

Example: I ride some narrow two lane roads where I deem it unsafe to share the lane with a car. So I ride somewhere between right and left tire track, depending on road and traffic conditions. (think blind curves, hills, or ONCOMING cars) Motorists see they can't possibly squeeze past me early, from great distance. This gives them plenty of time to plan ahead. And most do the right thing, and everyone is safe. They might still curse to themselves (or occasionally to me) but I'm ok with that because it doesn't hurt. That whole sticks and car bumpers may break my bones, but honks and names will never hurt me, thing.

On the other hand, practically every last cyclist I see on the same road, places themselves mere inches from the right edge. Motorists come up to them at full speed, thinking the path is clear, and either buzz the cyclist or jam on their brakes at the last moment once they figure out the gap is too tight. Nobody is safe, and everyone gets upset.

I believe these cyclists aren't aware that it's legal to position themselves farther left, that in some instances it can be safer, and that their edge riding behavior is actually training motorists to always attempt to squeeze past cyclists, even when it may not be safe to do so.

I've seen enough close calls due to gutter hugging. And controlled enough lanes to know it is safe and effective. I think it's best to get the word out, and give riders options that they previously did not have.
I don't think anything you have said is wrong per say, but my experiences driving a semi for 8 to 10 hours a day around a major metropolitan area doesn't support you conclusion.
If anything, more cyclists on the road causing more "delays" will give those with little patience a greater sense of urgency and resolve to pass cyclists.
If some are willing to risk their own life, limb, and property to get in front of a semi, what will change that for a cyclist who poses no threat to them.
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Old 07-02-15, 05:48 AM
  #261  
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Originally Posted by kickstart View Post
I don't think anything you have said is wrong per say, but my experiences driving a semi for 8 to 10 hours a day around a major metropolitan area doesn't support you conclusion.
If anything, more cyclists on the road causing more "delays" will give those with little patience a greater sense of urgency and resolve to pass cyclists.
If some are willing to risk their own life, limb, and property to get in front of a semi, what will change that for a cyclist who poses no threat to them.
What cyclists causing what delays? You already know cyclists are not the main cause of delays when it comes to automobile traffic.

The mindset of DELAY already exists in most members of society. Just for giggles, take note of the amount of time you will overhear a person uttering the words, "quick," (typically accompanied by the word, "real")relative to any number of tasks performed throughout the day. Why on earth would anyone want to take leak, "real quick?" Odds are, you will get the seat real wet if you do. Would it not be better to sit and relax and take your time? Make sure of your aim? It is a toilet after all, made for sitting.

The issue is not whether autos should pass cyclists or Amish horse/buggy or farm tractor. They should. I want the pass taking place with resolve and as expeditiously as possible. Not with URGENCY, as you put it.

The issue is WHERE AND WHEN THE PASS SHOULD TAKE PLACE.

Yabba dabba doo has it right. A cyclist in the lane and not hugging the curb will get passed in the appropriate manner, with far more distance between the auto and the cyclist. I, for one, can honestly write the following: I have NEVER been buzzed (i.e., narrowly passed with less than three feet of distance between the passing car and my bicycle), honked at, yelled at, told to, "get the !@#$ off the road," etc., when I am riding just to the left of the right tire track in the lane. ON THE OTHER HAND, I have frequently encountered all of these types of incidents while riding to the right of the right tire track on my rides, even on country roads.

So, either take the lane and start to train others as to what is appropriate and lawful through meaningful, real-life example, or keep suffering the indignity of other people taking a dump on you just because you ride a bike. I do not back down from bullies, even those wielding two ton objects.
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Old 07-02-15, 08:31 AM
  #262  
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Originally Posted by jeichelberg87 View Post
What cyclists causing what delays? You already know cyclists are not the main cause of delays when it comes to automobile traffic.





A cyclist in the lane and not hugging the curb will get passed in the appropriate manner, with far more distance between the auto and the cyclist. I, for one, can honestly write the following: I have NEVER been buzzed (i.e., narrowly passed with less than three feet of distance between the passing car and my bicycle), honked at, yelled at, told to, "get the !@#$ off the road," etc., when I am riding just to the left of the right tire track in the lane. ON THE OTHER HAND, I have frequently encountered all of these types of incidents while riding to the right of the right tire track on my rides, even on country roads.
I guess that saying delay as "delay" didn't send a clear message? As in not really, but some feel that way?

I don't know what to think about your experiences, but the only time I experience those issues is when I'm riding full in the lane.
Just yesterday on the way home from work riding in the center of the right lane on a 4 lane arterial after the PM rush, a SUV did a very, very aggressive punishment pass and honk to me.
I never have any issues when using the alternatives, with others just going about their own business. If something works, is logical, and legal, then I do it as circumstances call for, beyond that, I don't go trolling for trouble with every other road user I encounter because a few are jerks.

As a cyclist, motorcyclist, and professional driver, its my opinion and experience that the concept of lane taking to "teach" drivers a lesson is wishful, naive thinking at best.

Taunting irrational people into being rational and compliant to our desires, when its exactly what they're trying to do to us. A very odd thought process indeed.
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Old 07-02-15, 09:02 AM
  #263  
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Originally Posted by kickstart View Post
I guess that saying delay as "delay" didn't send a clear message? As in not really, but some feel that way?

I don't know what to think about your experiences, but the only time I experience those issues is when I'm riding full in the lane.
Just yesterday on the way home from work riding in the center of the right lane on a 4 lane arterial after the PM rush, a SUV did a very, very aggressive punishment pass and honk to me.
I never have any issues when using the alternatives, with others just going about their own business. If something works, is logical, and legal, then I do it as circumstances call for, beyond that, I don't go trolling for trouble with every other road user I encounter because a few are jerks.

As a cyclist, motorcyclist, and professional driver, its my opinion and experience that the concept of lane taking to "teach" drivers a lesson is wishful, naive thinking at best.

Taunting irrational people into being rational and compliant to our desires, when its exactly what they're trying to do to us. A very odd thought process indeed.
And to you, cycling on the road is an exercise in "taunting," drivers?

All behavior is "learned," behavior.

I do not look at drivers of automobiles as irrational. They are just as human as I am. On the road, whether in a car or not, the "same rights and responsibilities," as anyone else. They might get mad, might get distracted, might get this or that...regardless, I am going to operate my "vehicle," the way I want to and as long as I am acting responsibly, then I am right. Before the "dead right," caption pops up, I am much more willing to die for the right rather than the wrong.

Cyclists are not "taunting," drivers when they cycle in the lane. They are "teaching," them, whether the act is conscious or not, to all parties.

In the end, it will be you, looking at occupying the lane while cycling as "taunting," behavior, while I look at it as, "teaching," behavior.
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Old 07-02-15, 11:03 AM
  #264  
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Originally Posted by jeichelberg87 View Post
And to you, cycling on the road is an exercise in "taunting," drivers?

All behavior is "learned," behavior.

I do not look at drivers of automobiles as irrational. They are just as human as I am. On the road, whether in a car or not, the "same rights and responsibilities," as anyone else. They might get mad, might get distracted, might get this or that...regardless, I am going to operate my "vehicle," the way I want to and as long as I am acting responsibly, then I am right. Before the "dead right," caption pops up, I am much more willing to die for the right rather than the wrong.

Cyclists are not "taunting," drivers when they cycle in the lane. They are "teaching," them, whether the act is conscious or not, to all parties.

In the end, it will be you, looking at occupying the lane while cycling as "taunting," behavior, while I look at it as, "teaching," behavior.
You're chest thumping about lane position being a necessity to not be bullied even if it means sacrificing your life to the "cause" ? Brother, you have one interesting and depressing outlook on riding a bicycle.
Thanks, but no thanks, I'll stick to keeping it simple and sane, living in the moment, using lane position as a tool to improve my safety and ride experience as circumstances dictate.

I'll leave "educational" lane positioning, rabbit feet, praying, and Santa Claus to the true believers.
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Old 07-02-15, 11:40 AM
  #265  
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Originally Posted by kickstart View Post
You're chest thumping about lane position being a necessity to not be bullied even if it means sacrificing your life to the "cause" ? Brother, you have one interesting and depressing outlook on riding a bicycle.
Thanks, but no thanks, I'll stick to keeping it simple and sane, living in the moment, using lane position as a tool to improve my safety and ride experience as circumstances dictate.

I'll leave "educational" lane positioning, rabbit feet, praying, and Santa Claus to the true believers.
The fact is simply this . You view things your way and I view it mine. Agree to disagree. And since your "incidents," appear to outnumber mine, I will continue my "chest thumping," as you put it.

MY cause is mine and mine alone. I hold no others to it. Nor do I seek converts. I will teach my way. And you can teach yours. If I die while cycling my way, then I will have died happy, regardless of whether I was struck and killed by a motorist or whether I had a heart attack trying to surmount a hill or whatever...I know nothing in life is guaranteed except birth and death. Two things, part of the cycle.

You call my view depressing, yet you use words such as "taunting." Pray tell, give us (the readers of this forum) a positive spin on the word, "taunting." I will taunt you until you can offer the word "taunt," in a sentence that makes one feel positive about its use.

I, on the other hand, describe my riding as a "teaching," experience to all.

Remind us again...Who is depressed and suffering from cognitive dissonance?

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Old 07-02-15, 11:48 AM
  #266  
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Funny thing is, I'd be willing to wager that you'd see kickstart riding in pretty much the same position (when in the same situation) as the lane control advocates here. Because it makes sense, and it works out well for everyone.

It's just the mindset, theory's, ideology, (and now chest thumping!) of some that rubs him the wrong way. To an overtaking motorist, he is one of us!
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Old 07-02-15, 11:57 AM
  #267  
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+1 ^ This!
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Old 07-02-15, 12:41 PM
  #268  
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Originally Posted by jeichelberg87 View Post
Why on earth would anyone want to take leak, "real quick?" Odds are, you will get the seat real wet if you do. Would it not be better to sit and relax and take your time? Make sure of your aim? It is a toilet after all, made for sitting.
The real question is, will this trigger a 5 page tangent on sitting vs. standing to piss?

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Old 07-02-15, 01:15 PM
  #269  
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Originally Posted by kickstart View Post
If anything, more cyclists on the road causing more "delays" will give those with little patience a greater sense of urgency and resolve to pass cyclists.
Shifting more road users to bicycles, i.e., more cyclists on the roads, substantially decreases road congestion, decreasing delays.
"In 2008, a 3% decrease in Vehicle Miles Traveled led to a 30% reduction in peak hour congestion. Communities that invest in bicycling see on average a 70% increase in congestion-easing bike commuting." Source
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Old 07-02-15, 01:20 PM
  #270  
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Originally Posted by jeichelberg87 View Post
Yabba dabba doo has it right. A cyclist in the lane and not hugging the curb will get passed in the appropriate manner, with far more distance between the auto and the cyclist. I, for one, can honestly write the following: I have NEVER been buzzed (i.e., narrowly passed with less than three feet of distance between the passing car and my bicycle), honked at, yelled at, told to, "get the !@#$ off the road," etc., when I am riding just to the left of the right tire track in the lane. ON THE OTHER HAND, I have frequently encountered all of these types of incidents while riding to the right of the right tire track on my rides, even on country roads.

So, either take the lane and start to train others as to what is appropriate and lawful through meaningful, real-life example, or keep suffering the indignity of other people taking a dump on you just because you ride a bike. I do not back down from bullies, even those wielding two ton objects.
My experience, having ridden in many cities and states, is very similar.

Originally Posted by kickstart View Post
As a cyclist, motorcyclist, and professional driver, its my opinion and experience that the concept of lane taking to "teach" drivers a lesson is wishful, naive thinking at best.
And yet it works very reliably.
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Old 07-02-15, 01:37 PM
  #271  
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Originally Posted by AlmostTrick View Post
Funny thing is, I'd be willing to wager that you'd see kickstart riding in pretty much the same position (when in the same situation) as the lane control advocates here. Because it makes sense, and it works out well for everyone.

It's just the mindset, theory's, ideology, (and now chest thumping!) of some that rubs him the wrong way. To an overtaking motorist, he is one of us!
Actually I probably ride in the lane more than most here and certainly more than most in my area. I fully appreciate the importance of lane position and I'm not ashamed or apologetic about doing what I must, even if some don't like it.

I simply don't see any rational validity or logic in letting intangible considerations such as "education" or ideologies alter what I feel is the most appropriate response to my environment. As far as I'm concerned, being critical of a cyclist who prefers to not ride in the lane, is nothing more than the polar opposite of a motorists telling a cyclist to get off the road.
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Old 07-02-15, 01:37 PM
  #272  
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Originally Posted by bronco71 View Post
The real question is, will this trigger a 5 page tangent on sitting vs. standing to piss?

That would be more interesting.

When I'm outside in my yard or in my woods, I stand.
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Old 07-02-15, 01:43 PM
  #273  
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Originally Posted by Jaywalk3r View Post



And yet it works very reliably.
"I say so, therefore it must be the universal truth"

That's the wonderful thing about presenting personal experience as irrefutable proof, its impossible to prove or deny.
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Old 07-02-15, 01:47 PM
  #274  
Jaywalk3r
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Originally Posted by kickstart View Post
"I say so, therefore it must be the universal truth"

That's the wonderful thing about presenting personal experience as irrefutable proof, its impossible to prove or deny.
If you've been paying attention, it is the personal experience of many, many bicyclists. In fact, the very post you quoted itself quoted another user with the same experience. That didn't fit with your narrative, though, so you predictably ignored it.

Last edited by Jaywalk3r; 07-02-15 at 01:53 PM.
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Old 07-02-15, 01:51 PM
  #275  
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Originally Posted by jeichelberg87 View Post

Remind us again...Who is depressed and suffering from cognitive dissonance?
I can only say I'm not the one trying to "educate" the world. I just enjoy riding a bicycle because its not that complicated.
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