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Darwinism at work; another reckless cyclist takes the full lane and gets hit

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Darwinism at work; another reckless cyclist takes the full lane and gets hit

Old 06-14-15, 01:29 AM
  #76  
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Originally Posted by Jaywalk3r View Post
In my experience, taking the lane isn't actually much of an inconvenience for other road users. Usually, the worst case is that they arrive at a red light a few seconds later than they would have had no bicyclists been on the road. That lost time is more than made up for by the decreased congestion on the roads.
I'll agree that the perception of inconvenience is often out of proportion to the actual effect, but there are times when it is indeed disruptive. Fortunatly its mostly an academic argument here, as I rarely see cyclists actually being road hogs unnecessarily in the real world.
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Old 06-14-15, 06:35 AM
  #77  
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First off even in the cases bicyclist won it takes court time and sometimes lawyers which is time and money. Second taking the lane just because you can when there is room to ride to the right like a bike lane or wide smooth shoulder is just being a jack ass. Yes I see cyclist doing this.
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Old 06-14-15, 08:02 AM
  #78  
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Originally Posted by Rollfast View Post
The usage of 'Darwinism' in the thread's title was enough of a problem. We should be discouraging the usage of such improper and inflammatory terms...they suggest we approve of the idea.

Is the thread promoting a solution, or is it simply a spectator thread? Spectator threads run counter to the purpose of this forum.
Not sure if serious?
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Old 06-14-15, 08:10 AM
  #79  
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Originally Posted by plumberroy View Post
First off even in the cases bicyclist won it takes court time and sometimes lawyers which is time and money. Second taking the lane just because you can when there is room to ride to the right like a bike lane or wide smooth shoulder is just being a jack ass. Yes I see cyclist doing this.
I'd really love to hear the argument, reception by all parties, and counterarguments in court for riding in the left hand tire track of a lane when a state has a "far right as practicable" statute. I mean, I know the cyclists' argument regarding taking the lane and all, but I do wonder how it would play out IRL in court...

There are stretches of road during any of my various commutes past and present, where I would and will aggressively take the lane. Usually, these are places where it is inherently dangerous for a vehicle to pass me, or where I have been subject to way-too-close passes, left hooks, right hooks, etc. in the past. It occurs to me in this thread that there are motorists who come up in back of me who think I'm just being a "road hog," taking the lane for no good reason and slowing traffic unreasonably... When this is not the case at all -- experience with a section of road dictates the position I take.
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Old 06-14-15, 08:44 AM
  #80  
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Originally Posted by mconlonx View Post
I'd really love to hear the argument, reception by all parties, and counterarguments in court for riding in the left hand tire track of a lane when a state has a "far right as practicable" statute. I mean, I know the cyclists' argument regarding taking the lane and all, but I do wonder how it would play out IRL in court...

There are stretches of road during any of my various commutes past and present, where I would and will aggressively take the lane. Usually, these are places where it is inherently dangerous for a vehicle to pass me, or where I have been subject to way-too-close passes, left hooks, right hooks, etc. in the past. It occurs to me in this thread that there are motorists who come up in back of me who think I'm just being a "road hog," taking the lane for no good reason and slowing traffic unreasonably... When this is not the case at all -- experience with a section of road dictates the position I take.
Pretty much agree with this. I take the lane only when necessary, but always looking to go right ASAP. I never, ever, take the left wheel track. That's just being ignorant, IMO.
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Old 06-14-15, 10:24 AM
  #81  
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Originally Posted by mconlonx View Post
There are stretches of road during any of my various commutes past and present, where I would and will aggressively take the lane. Usually, these are places where it is inherently dangerous for a vehicle to pass me, or where I have been subject to way-too-close passes, left hooks, right hooks, etc. in the past. It occurs to me in this thread that there are motorists who come up in back of me who think I'm just being a "road hog," taking the lane for no good reason and slowing traffic unreasonably... When this is not the case at all -- experience with a section of road dictates the position I take.
I entirely agree with your statement, but find it interesting that you express it in two different ways.

The latter describes how I use conditions to choose my position on the road when riding a bike or motorcycle. The former is a mindset unique to cyclists and a term I don't like using. It implies the connotation that one is acting with ulterior motives beyond necessity, its almost like subconsciously admitting that one is doing something naughty that they should feel guilty about, or they're intentionally being confrontational.
When I'm riding in the travel lane, I think of it as I'm using the road, not that I'm "taking" the road.
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Old 06-14-15, 10:54 AM
  #82  
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A note to the OP. While I understand the "need" to use jargon to express your opinion, I find the use of the expression "Darwinism" to be especially offensive. It suggests a complete and utter lack of empathy and as such makes the poster little "better" than the target of his derision.
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Old 06-14-15, 10:55 AM
  #83  
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Originally Posted by cale View Post
A note to the OP. While I understand the "need" to use jargon to express your opinion, I find the use of the expression "Darwinism" to be especially offensive. It suggests a complete and utter lack of empathy and as such makes the poster little "better" than the target of their derision.
Got to Agree with you ^ ^ ^
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Old 06-14-15, 11:30 AM
  #84  
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Originally Posted by plumberroy View Post
First off even in the cases bicyclist won it takes court time and sometimes lawyers which is time and money. Second taking the lane just because you can when there is room to ride to the right like a bike lane or wide smooth shoulder is just being a jack ass. Yes I see cyclist doing this.
Yes, it would be better if cops and cyclists understood the law and bicycle safety.

I see cyclists riding right when it is unsafe to do so FAR more often than I see cyclists taking the lane when it is safe to ride right. In my experience riding in several states and cities, it is very unusual for it to be practicable to ride right. Most jurisdictions don't provide sufficiently wide lanes, and when they do, they tend to fail to keep them well maintained, free of debris, and free of parked cars. And in borderline cases, too many motorists pass too closely, necessitating moving left into the lane. I ride about 100 miles per week, and I doubt I ride even a mile per month on streets where it is safe to ride right. Being safe isn't being a jackass. Being a jackass is riding right unsafely to placate motorists, giving them the unreasonable expectation that all riders should adopt such unsafe riding habits.

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Old 06-14-15, 11:39 AM
  #85  
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Originally Posted by baron von trail View Post
Pretty much agree with this. I take the lane only when necessary, but always looking to go right ASAP. I never, ever, take the left wheel track. That's just being ignorant, IMO.
One (of several) situations in which riding in the left tire track is appropriate is when the right tire track is in the door zone. This is a fairly common scenario in many downtown and commercial districts.
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Old 06-14-15, 11:48 AM
  #86  
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Originally Posted by cale View Post
A note to the OP. While I understand the "need" to use jargon to express your opinion, I find the use of the expression "Darwinism" to be especially offensive. It suggests a complete and utter lack of empathy and as such makes the poster little "better" than the target of his derision.
+ 1.
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Old 06-14-15, 12:57 PM
  #87  
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Originally Posted by Jaywalk3r View Post
Yes, it would be better if cops and cyclists understood the law and bicycle safety.

I see cyclists riding right when it is unsafe to do so FAR more often than I see cyclists taking the lane when it is safe to ride right. In my experience riding in several states and cities, it is very unusual for it to be practicable to ride right. Most jurisdictions don't provide sufficiently wide lanes, and when they do, they tend to fail to keep them well maintained, free of debris, and free of parked cars. And in borderline cases, too many motorists pass too closely, necessitating moving left into the lane. I ride about 100 miles per week, and I doubt I ride even a mile per month on streets where it is safe to ride right. Being safe isn't being a jackass. Being a jackass is riding right unsafely to placate motorists, giving them the unreasonable expectation that all riders should adopt such unsafe riding habits.
No being safe isn't being a jackass, but slowing down traffic behind you just because you can when you don't have to is . I don't see people taking the lane too much anywhere except downtown around the Collage areas where the city is working hard to make it more bike friendly . It gets old the same people screaming it is in the rules It is my right it is the law when it works they way they like . Then the same people cry about they shouldn't have to follow the rules on stuff like stop signs, lights etc .
Like I said even if you win an impeding traffic ticket . you lose time going to court and may have to pay a lawyer , so it still cost you. And I know rural counties in Ohio that will write a ticket if you have 20 cars backed up and don't get out of the way .

Roy
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Old 06-14-15, 01:17 PM
  #88  
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Its interesting that I'm on the road around Seattle for 10+ hours a day, yet I rarely see these alleged hordes of cyclists who are harassing and discommoding motorists, or endangering themselves because they keep right or otherwise minimize their impact.

I think there's people on both side of the fence with overactive imaginations, or confusing their perceptions for reality.
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Old 06-14-15, 01:49 PM
  #89  
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Conflict about it-lane taking- seems to happens in rural areas-or outskirts of towns-
on roads with 40-45 mph speed limits- and not much of a shoulder
A few years back-someone on this forum mentioned a sign placed on a rural road-outside San Diego-the sign suggested riders who hog the road might get run over.

Forum bike riders go on and on about lane taking-but they are soooo few-it rarely matters-
in most of the country-no one notices or cares
There aren't many bike riders and they don't account for many miles
Yeah we/you aren't important-which is the WHY of Why laws favor cars-votes #'s
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Old 06-14-15, 02:10 PM
  #90  
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Originally Posted by Jaywalk3r View Post
I see cyclists riding right when it is unsafe to do so FAR more often than I see cyclists taking the lane when it is safe to ride right.
I'm having troubles thinking of a single road where it is unsafe to ride to the right side of the road. Bus/tram lanes?

Perhaps skimming rows of parked cars?

There are certainly a few places such as left turn lanes where it is convenient to move with the traffic.

However, 99% of where I ride it is best to stay as far right as practical.
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Old 06-14-15, 03:12 PM
  #91  
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Originally Posted by CliffordK View Post
I'm having troubles thinking of a single road where it is unsafe to ride to the right side of the road. Bus/tram lanes?
#head explodes#

Ever heard of dooring?
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Old 06-14-15, 03:26 PM
  #92  
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Originally Posted by kickstart View Post
Its interesting that I'm on the road around Seattle for 10+ hours a day, yet I rarely see these alleged hordes of cyclists who are harassing and discommoding motorists, or endangering themselves because they keep right or otherwise minimize their impact.

I think there's people on both side of the fence with overactive imaginations, or confusing their perceptions for reality.
We've got our own set of NIGHTMARES! My son was run down by a cyclist while walking his broken bike along the Birke Gilman Trail. I'm serious but I say it to illustrate how life's experiences influence people's opinion.

I agree with your point about overactive imaginations. But distorted reality is something of a Seattle tradition, so I'm going to stand by that. Haha
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Old 06-14-15, 03:34 PM
  #93  
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Originally Posted by spare_wheel View Post
#head explodes#

Ever heard of dooring?
He way he put it was ever so delicate, "Perhaps skimming rows of parked cars?" More like 95% of my entire riding loop! Skimming rows indeed!
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Old 06-15-15, 01:11 PM
  #94  
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Originally Posted by plumberroy View Post
No being safe isn't being a jackass, but slowing down traffic behind you just because you can when you don't have to is .
No one is advocating doing that. If the lane is well maintained, sufficiently wide, i.e., 14+ feet, and sufficiently debris free, and riding right won't make me less visible to road users entering the roadway from side streets, driveways, or those turning left from the opposite direction of my direction of travel, and no other valid safety concerns exists (e.g., parked cars, poorly designed storm grates), then I'll ride right. Otherwise, it isn't safe to do so, and I'll take the lane. I'm certainly not being a jackass by doing so.

I've been pulled over for not riding right. I explained why I was taking the lane, and the officer told me that as long as I was aware of my lane positioning and had a reason for it, it was perfectly acceptable. No ticket and no lawyer or court battle required. I guess the officer understood the definition of practicable much better than you do.

And I know rural counties in Ohio that will write a ticket if you have 20 cars backed up and don't get out of the way .
Then they are unfamiliar with Ohio statutes (or writing tickets to people operating vehicles other than bicycles).

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Old 06-15-15, 01:19 PM
  #95  
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Originally Posted by CliffordK View Post
I'm having troubles thinking of a single road where it is unsafe to ride to the right side of the road. Bus/tram lanes?

Perhaps skimming rows of parked cars?

There are certainly a few places such as left turn lanes where it is convenient to move with the traffic.

However, 99% of where I ride it is best to stay as far right as practical.
Non-exhaustive examples of why it is not practicable to ride right:

Lane less than 14 feet wide
Right 5-6 feet of lane not free of debris
parked cars
right 5-6 feet of lane not well maintained
storm grates not compatible with bicycle wheels (openings parallel with roadway)
Obscured view for drivers from side streets and driveways
Motorists passing too closely

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Old 06-15-15, 01:28 PM
  #96  
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It's interesting that lane position is such a polarizing subject here when the inflexible extremists views of those who advocate always taking the lane regardless of the impac on others, and those who advocate never using the lane when it impacts others, while ignoring actual need or options, rarely manifest themselves in the real world.
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Old 06-15-15, 01:54 PM
  #97  
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Originally Posted by Jaywalk3r View Post
Non-exhaustive examples of why it is not practicable to ride right:

Lane less than 14 feet wide
Isn't every travel lane/roadway less than 14 feet wide? Excepting for ramps, I thought widths ranged from 9' to 12'.

Mitigation Strategies For Design Exceptions - Safety | Federal Highway Administration
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Old 06-15-15, 02:24 PM
  #98  
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Originally Posted by RollCNY View Post
Isn't every travel lane/roadway less than 14 feet wide? Excepting for ramps, I thought widths ranged from 9' to 12'.

Mitigation Strategies For Design Exceptions - Safety | Federal Highway Administration
No. Such roads exist, and, absent other reasons not to, riding right and sharing the lane is acceptable on such roads. Such lanes are, as you note, relatively uncommon compared to lanes 12 feet wide or less, which is one of the reasons that it is usually not practicable to ride right.
"Standard travel lanes are 12' wide and too narrow to share, so you will need to control the lane.
Some lanes on FDOT roads are are 14' wide or a little wider. These wide lanes are actually wide enough for a cyclists and motorist to share, as opposed to a standard travel lane, which is 12' wide and too narrow to share."
Source
The reasoning:
"Think about the reasoning behind the 14 feet. You need at least 8 feet of lane width for a car. (That’s the narrowest parking lane width allowed, so it should be 9 feet for a moving vehicle—but we’ll say 8.) Florida Statute 316.083 states that motorists must pass bicycles at least 3 feet away. It’s safe to assume we need another 3 feet for the bicycle with a rider. Add it up and you need a 14-foot lane for bicyclists and automobiles to safely travel side by side." Source
So 14 feet is still cutting it close, since it only leaves three feet for the bicyclist, not much room to maneuver around debris, potholes, etc.

Personally, since speed limits tend to be higher on wide roads (unless the additional width is for parking), I tend to find alternative routes when I'm familiar with the area. I'd rather make an 11 mile trip on roads with light to moderate traffic volume and 25-35 mph speed limits than a 10 mile trip with high traffic volume and high speed limits. It makes for a more pleasant ride, in my opinion. Thus, it is very rare that it is practicable for me to ride right in familiar urban environments; my preferred routes involve streets on which lane sharing is not safe.

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Old 06-16-15, 07:36 PM
  #99  
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Concerning lane positioning. If the law stated as far LEFT as practicable how far to the right would be acceptable? You probably wouldn't ride in the left tire track due to oncoming traffic, visability and many other reasons. The fact of the matter is the position of choice would vary across the whole lane and would change often just as is does riding as far right as practicable.
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Old 06-17-15, 01:15 PM
  #100  
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If the cop (from post #1 video) did hit the cyclist when passing, if nothing else, he needs to write himself a ticket for violating PA's 4-foot passing law, apparently enacted 3 years ago.
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