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Help Me Out Here

Old 06-27-15, 03:52 AM
  #26  
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Originally Posted by bikecrate View Post
Not convinced this isn't just a troll. Perhaps OP should change username to Unconcernedgetoffmyroads.
I'd go further. There is absolutely nothing to suggest that this is anything other than a troll

1. Join date June 2015.
2. First post: an anti-cyclist rant thinly disguised by somewhat-careful phrasing and an attempt at conveying a rational tone.
3. Tone and substance very close to that of thread-starting posts made under a couple of other user-names as 'first posts' recently on here.

Reasonable conclusion: 'obvious troll is obvious'.
Ignore.
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Old 06-27-15, 04:12 AM
  #27  
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Hah hah, nice Concern Troll. The OP even went as far as to label themselves "Concerned"
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Old 06-27-15, 06:02 AM
  #28  
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Originally Posted by Trevtassie View Post
Hah hah, nice Concern Troll. The OP even went as far as to label themselves "Concerned"
No forum group bites on a troll better than A&S.
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Old 06-27-15, 06:21 AM
  #29  
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Originally Posted by bikecrate View Post
Not convinced this isn't just a troll. Perhaps OP should change username to Unconcernedgetoffmyroads.
Of course it's a troll. I only responded as an exercise. The OP almost certainly has no interest in actually listening to arguments or to be convinced, and nobody here buys his crud either, but it's useful to practice responding to this sort of malarkey in a reasonable way.
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Old 06-27-15, 06:45 AM
  #30  
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Drivers seem to forget that they are the johnny come lately to the streets. Pressure from cyclist in the late 1800s causes roads to be developed. So the fact is cars are actually driving on cyclist roads.
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Old 06-27-15, 07:01 AM
  #31  
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"Share the Road" is a warning for cars and a reminder to bicyclist. Roadways/driving have inherent risk and that is just life as it is. Everyone who uses the road should be put through a class like this... Smith System - Five Principles of Safe Driving | Platinum Drivers Inc.
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Old 06-27-15, 07:09 AM
  #32  
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Originally Posted by KD5NRH View Post
Wait; what if it's a donkey on a unicycle?
Put the donkey on You Tube and take the viral cred.

Is the OP going to make another post or is this neener neener?
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Old 06-27-15, 07:28 AM
  #33  
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Originally Posted by ItsJustMe View Post
Of course it's a troll. I only responded as an exercise. The OP almost certainly has no interest in actually listening to arguments or to be convinced, and nobody here buys his crud either, but it's useful to practice responding to this sort of malarkey in a reasonable way.
Bingo! Winner, winner!!!
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Old 06-27-15, 04:49 PM
  #34  
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Originally Posted by concerned View Post
If I decided to drive my riding lawnmower to work and back every day, should I expect drivers of more appropriate vehicles to accommodate me with a smile?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mc2iCjnTnN4
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Old 06-27-15, 11:09 PM
  #35  
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Originally Posted by ItsJustMe View Post
Simply put, the right to free travel has been around since forever. Muscle powered transport is the one kind of transport that can't be taken away from people. In fact it's generally considered to be a right. Driving a car is not a right, it's a privilege and CAN be revoked by society.

That includes donkeys btw. Yes, people are allowed to ride quadrupeds on the roads and frequently do around here.

Roads are not built for car drivers, they're built for the common good. This includes all uses, transportation of goods, commuting to work, recreation, etc, regardless of the type of vehicle people choose to use.

Most of the roads in the US were actually built to get goods to market, not for people to drive around, so you could make the same argument about passenger cars "getting in the way of" trucks hauling goods.

Nobody's asking for special privileges, we're only asking for the same rights as anyone else who is paying for the roads.

Your argument about "trails available in parks" and such is a complete red herring. It presupposes that bicycle riders are just out joy-riding and have noplace to go. I personally ride every day, about 30 miles, and I'm just going to work and back, or running errands. I haven't ridden a single foot just for fun in years. I'm just going to work and back, or to the store, same as you.

The argument about bicycles "being self-centered" is ludicrous. In fact the only reason that bicycling on the road is dangerous is that CAR DRIVERS are self-centered. Think about it. They think the road is there FOR THEM and nobody else. They think that taking up 10 seconds of their PRECIOUS TIME is intolerable compared to the safety of others on the road. They think that because there are more of them, that means that everything should therefore be built and used ONLY BY AND FOR THEM.

When car drivers and cyclists all obey the law, everything is fine. Things get dangerous when either does not. Car drivers break the law practically ever moment that they're in a moving car, but all they can seem to talk about is cyclists breaking the law.

BTW "Share the road" signs are no longer recommended. It has been found that car drivers interpret that as "That means that cyclists should get the hell out of my way." Instead most states now direct that "Cyclists may use full lane" in conjunction with sharrows as appropriate be installed instead.

On a personal note, the reason I ride is environmental. Every time I get passed by an SUV, I think "I'm doing this to make up for what you're doing." I may not make much of a positive difference, but at least I'm not making a negative one.
Hey "Its.." I think this is the best written, most eloquent and well reasoned response I've ever seen. Congratulations, and thank you.
Sam
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Old 06-27-15, 11:27 PM
  #36  
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So I know this has reverted to a "dont feed the troll post" but OP if your still actually interested in another valid point here it is.
I own automobiles and bicycles.
I pay registration.
I pay taxes and tolls.
some days I use the road for my cars, sometimes I use it for my bicycles. Im paying for it, just like you, why shouldn't I use it??


by the way the paved bike paths around here have a 10 mph posted speed limit, too slow for bicycles, unless you're 6.
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Old 06-29-15, 10:40 AM
  #37  
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Thanks for all the feedback. Sorry I wasn't able to stay on top of the conversation in a more timely manner. Busy weekend...

I actually do appreciate the arguments made, and contrary to popular belief am not just trolling your boards. The argument that stood out the most to me was the point made that cars aren't restricted to just commuting back and forth to work. My issue is that someone would cause traffic issues on busy roads because they just wanted to have fun. I doubt there's any law to prevent me from passing gas in a restaurant booth next to you, but if you found out I was ruining your dinner because I just enjoyed farting and believed I had a right to do so, you would probably be frustrated too. Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should.

As for the original reason for roads being for bicycles, I contend that point by mentioning that roads have been around far longer than bicycles. When "traffic" on these roads got to be much too fast for pedestrians, they were moved to sidewalks to make way for the faster moving vehicles.

As for claims that I am a gas-guzzling climate-denier, I'll just point out that I commute by motorcycle most of the time. My motorcycle gets 45 miles per gallon. There are plenty of greener folks in the world. It would literally take me hours to commute to work each way on a bicycle. Not all of us have a situation that allows us to make that choice in the name of environmental awareness, so we do what we can.

What I like best is the suggestion that I try cycling. I am an avid mountain biker. I love the sport and spend as much time as possible doing it. In places designed for it. I get great exercise in the great outdoors and manage to do so without inconveniencing anyone in the process.

All that being said, I am starting to come around to some of the points made here. One thing that came to mind while reading through the responses (that I'm surprised no one brought up) are horses drawn carriages in Amish country. I doubt I would get upset if I came across an Amish person even if it was in the middle of my commute. I realize that I should feel the same way about Eco-conscious commuting cyclists - both are making sacrifices for their beliefs.

My main gripe is just with the folks that are joyriding on busy streets during rush hour. I yearn for the day where we in metro Atlanta have a more balanced transportation system as a whole, where mass transit is more viable and the sheer density of cars on the over-stressed roads is somehow alleviated. However, I doubt that will happen in my lifetime. For now, our traffic situation here (and in many other places in the country) just flat out sucks. For the overwhelming majority of commuters, motorized vehicles are the only viable option to get around. The sad truth (in light of the environment) is that bicycles make an already terrible situation even worse. Maybe the solution is more bike lanes. Is there an organization that works to promote the development of bike lanes?

Yes, my original post was my first on these boards. I sought out these boards looking for the other side of the argument. I try to do this with everything I find myself feeling aggravated about in order to make sure I'm not missing anything (this comes in really handy in politics- keeps you from becoming too angry at one side or the other). Just because I may disagree with a lot of you doesn't mean I'm just here to provoke you. You might consider that I may have a valid point every once in a while, too.
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Old 06-29-15, 11:26 AM
  #38  
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Originally Posted by concerned View Post
Thanks for all the feedback. Sorry I wasn't able to stay on top of the conversation in a more timely manner. Busy weekend...

I actually do appreciate the arguments made, and contrary to popular belief am not just trolling your boards. The argument that stood out the most to me was the point made that cars aren't restricted to just commuting back and forth to work. My issue is that someone would cause traffic issues on busy roads because they just wanted to have fun. I doubt there's any law to prevent me from passing gas in a restaurant booth next to you, but if you found out I was ruining your dinner because I just enjoyed farting and believed I had a right to do so, you would probably be frustrated too. Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should.
By that logic, everyone who has the option to take public transportation should do so, even if they can drive. That you limit your indignant rant to cyclists rather than the thousands upon thousands of selfish drivers who actually make your commute significantly longer makes you somewhat hypocritical. And if you have access to public transportation but refuse to use it, even if it's not as convenient, then your shame is doubled.

Originally Posted by concerned View Post
As for the original reason for roads being for bicycles, I contend that point by mentioning that roads have been around far longer than bicycles. When "traffic" on these roads got to be much too fast for pedestrians, they were moved to sidewalks to make way for the faster moving vehicles.
The history of roads in the U.S. is not quite as simple as that. The relegation of pedestrians to the sidewalk and the exclusive use of streets by automobiles was the result of a successful propaganda war by auto companies.

Originally Posted by concerned View Post
All that being said, I am starting to come around to some of the points made here. One thing that came to mind while reading through the responses (that I'm surprised no one brought up) are horses drawn carriages in Amish country. I doubt I would get upset if I came across an Amish person even if it was in the middle of my commute. I realize that I should feel the same way about Eco-conscious commuting cyclists - both are making sacrifices for their beliefs.
With regard to neglecting to bring up horse drawn carriages, you put out so much BS that we're still shoveling it up. But horses, with or without carriages, aren't just for Amish country. Cities like New York and rural areas often have them using the roads. Also farm implements are driven slowly and everyone just seems to deal with it.

This isn't about "making sacrifices for their beliefs", this is about learning to tolerate others even when you are in a position of power. The reason that people hate cyclists but not so much tractors or horses is that their lizard brain identifies cyclists (and pedestrians) as weaker players and so it is an outrage to have to grant them consideration (vs. just bullying them out of the way). It's a primitive "might makes right" way of looking at the world that perhaps you should do a little self-reflection on.

Originally Posted by concerned View Post
My main gripe is just with the folks that are joyriding on busy streets during rush hour. I yearn for the day where we in metro Atlanta have a more balanced transportation system as a whole, where mass transit is more viable and the sheer density of cars on the over-stressed roads is somehow alleviated. However, I doubt that will happen in my lifetime. For now, our traffic situation here (and in many other places in the country) just flat out sucks. For the overwhelming majority of commuters, motorized vehicles are the only viable option to get around. The sad truth (in light of the environment) is that bicycles make an already terrible situation even worse. Maybe the solution is more bike lanes. Is there an organization that works to promote the development of bike lanes?
The degree to which cyclists actually degrade commuting times is almost certainly negligible. Accidents, gapers, rain, just too many cars, etc., these are the things that make your commute suck. You are fixating on an easy target because you are a bully, hypocrite, and severely biased.

Originally Posted by concerned View Post
You might consider that I may have a valid point every once in a while, too.
Feel free to make one anytime

Last edited by Cyclosaurus; 06-29-15 at 11:31 AM. Reason: bad tag
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Old 06-29-15, 11:40 AM
  #39  
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Originally Posted by concerned View Post
As for the original reason for roads being for bicycles, I contend that point by mentioning that roads have been around far longer than bicycles. When "traffic" on these roads got to be much too fast for pedestrians, they were moved to sidewalks to make way for the faster moving vehicles.
Not really. Pedestrians and cars used to co-exist. Pedestrians were driven off the road by an intentional "safety" campaign that fully intended to basically make cities unlivable by people without cars.

Originally Posted by concerned View Post
As for claims that I am a gas-guzzling climate-denier, I'll just point out that I commute by motorcycle most of the time. My motorcycle gets 45 miles per gallon.
Motorcycles pollute FAR FAR FAR more than cars do. MPG has very little to do with it. The tailpipe emissions on motorcycles is horrendous due to their lack of catalytic converters.

Originally Posted by concerned View Post
My main gripe is just with the folks that are joyriding on busy streets during rush hour.
How do you know why they're on the street? I sure as HECK wouldn't go out for a recreational ride during rush hour. I don't always have to have any luggage with me at all to get to work. I leave changes of clothes at work, and often food is provided at work or I'm going to buy something to eat there. I frequently go to work with nothing but a wallet on me.

Originally Posted by concerned View Post
For the overwhelming majority of commuters, motorized vehicles are the only viable option to get around. The sad truth (in light of the environment) is that bicycles make an already terrible situation even worse.
I don't buy it. I drive plenty, and cars hold me up FAR more than bicycles do. Next time you're stuck in traffic, realize that if half the people in the cars around you were riding bicycles, traffic would be flowing smoothly. A single car trying to turn left on a 2 lane road when there's on coming traffic will hold you up more than a hundred cyclists. Do you think that people should not be allowed to turn left? You can stand on any street anywhere and point to a car driver doing something that's inconveniencing other car drivers every 30 seconds.

You don't think of cars as holding you up, because you're in a car. But imagine if there were no cars at all on the road, then compare to the actual situation. Think that cars don't cause trouble?
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Old 06-29-15, 12:24 PM
  #40  
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In my area (and most likely yours) we have regular traffic reports to inform us how much other motorists will slow our commute. Never once do they mention cyclists as a factor. Funny that.
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Old 06-29-15, 12:43 PM
  #41  
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Originally Posted by ItsJustMe View Post
Most of the roads in the US were actually built to get goods to market, not for people to drive around, so you could make the same argument about passenger cars "getting in the way of" trucks hauling goods.
As a professional driver who doesn't own a car, that thought sometimes crosses my mind..........But it passes quickly, as they're the ones I'm hauling goods for.
Its easy to forget we all need each other, and ones chosen form of transportation doesn't define their value to society.
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Old 06-29-15, 01:06 PM
  #42  
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@concerned tell us honestly, you were in the black pickup that buzzed me last week on Windward weren't you?

But first, anyone you see in heavy rush hour traffic in North Atlanta suburbs is most likely commuting, regardless of what they're wearing. I've never seen the groups out before around 6:30.

Second it doesn't matter why the cyclist is out there, and frankly in actual rush hour you guys slow me down more than vice versa. That's on surface roads - you haven't really seen a bicycle on GA400, I75, I85 or loop 285.

Finally, you haven't made a point that we haven't heard many times. Specifically, no "inherent right for people to ride" (wrong, there is an inherent right), "streets designed for automobiles" (no, designed to facilitate autos, and other traffic), " dangerous obstacles" (proven wrong dozens of ways), and the whole "why share the road" rant which bespeaks an ignorance of what the roads are, how they are funded, and what the laws are.
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Old 06-29-15, 02:01 PM
  #43  
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Originally Posted by concerned View Post
You might consider that I may have a valid point every once in a while, too.
Did you read up on motor vehicle statutes in your state which indicate that bicyclists are entitled to use the roads as vehicles? What part of that is unclear to you?

You are more frequently delayed and to a greater extent by other motor vehicle traffic than you are by bicyclists, especially if you ride a motorcycle on a regular basis. Have you vented your frustration on automobile forums?

What makes you think that all cyclists are out for joy rides and not a commuter, like yourself...?
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Old 06-29-15, 02:28 PM
  #44  
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Originally Posted by concerned View Post
The sad truth (in light of the environment) is that bicycles make an already terrible situation even worse.
As a city P&D driver in the LTL freight industry who's on the road 8 to 10 hours a day, its my professional opinion you're full of horse feathers.
About 1/3 of each and every day is dedicated to sitting in traffic, yet even here in a cycling hot spot like Seattle, I can count the number of times cyclists cause more than a moment of delay on one hand......per year.

BTW, I commute by bicycle.
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Old 06-29-15, 02:36 PM
  #45  
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Originally Posted by concerned View Post
After coming across yet another "Share the Road" sign, I decided to finally seek out the reasoning behind this mentality. I'm not trying to provoke anyone, believe me. I am certainly not trying to upset anyone who has lost a friend or loved one in a bicycle-related accident. My heart goes out to those of you who fit that description, truly. I also don't intend to imply that all cyclists fit the below descriptions. I think (hope) these are only a very small minority of cyclists.

Here goes- I just simply don't see any inherent right for people to ride slow moving, man-powered vehicles on streets designed for automobiles. In my experience all around the country, bicycles on motorways are dangerous obstacles not only for the rider, but for drivers as well. In suburban Atlanta (where I live and work), I often see cyclists (in full tights with no packs or anything to suggest they are commuters) pedaling along during rush hour on everything from four lane divided highways where people routinely drive 65 miles per hour to crowded surface streets. I always ask myself the same question: with so many designated parks, paved cycling trails, etc. all over the area, why do these people choose to hinder others' ability to get back and forth to work while putting themselves in danger? There's nothing scenic about metro Atlanta roadways. There are a plethora of opportunities to get exercise cycling in this area that don't involve putting people in danger and making a terrible traffic situation worse than it already is. I just can't understand the reasoning. Truthfully, it seems very self-centered to me, whatever the reason.

As for the "Share the Road" mantra, my response is, respectfully, "Why should I?" If I decided to drive my riding lawnmower to work and back every day, should I expect drivers of more appropriate vehicles to accommodate me with a smile? How about a unicycle? A donkey? What is so special about bicycles? The only effect of the "Share the Road" campaign I can see is that it seems to have inspired an entitled sort of mentality where some cyclists are all too quick to make idiotic choices, while pinning the responsibility for those choices on motorists. Frankly, I'm a bit tired of it. I am hoping someone here can point out some line of reasoning that will make me understand these things better and ease my frustration.
Something tells me that nothing is going to ease your frustration. Frustration over what? Hitting your brakes? Oh God forbid you poor poor baby had to slow down on your way home from work.
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Old 06-29-15, 02:44 PM
  #46  
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Son lived car-free n Atlanta for a while and sad that he pretty much had to take the main thoroughfare because of the street alignments.
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Old 06-29-15, 03:06 PM
  #47  
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Well, OP, to be fair, your point does come across as somewhat extreme here on BikeForums, but that's probably not your fault. Being both a driver and a cyclist, I have come across this mentality quite often, I know how most motorists like to oversimplify things and say "To hell with cyclists, blocking up traffic!". The fact of the matter is, ever since I started cycling more regularly, and on busier roads, I realized that bicycles almost never block traffic. Yes, cyclists in your way could make you decrease your speed and initiate a passing maneuver, after looking in the mirror and signalling. But that is the greatest amount of discomfort you could possibly sustain, attributable to a cyclist who is following standard vehicle laws. As others have already mentioned, a stopped car (whether to turn left, to attempt parallel parking or simply to drop someone off) will cause you to definitely stop, look for a greater gap in traffic and move inside the whole oncoming lane in order to proceed your journey. Since those occurrences seem much more frequent, is there any reason to despise cyclists more than drivers?

You mention that you ride an MTB and take pleasure in the sport. I salute you for that. But your explanation seems to indicate that you believe cycling as a whole to be a sport. Something many motorists would believe wholeheartedly. The truth is, the bicycle, although it can be used for all sorts of sporting events, such as downhill, track cycling, racing, etc., is first and foremost, a vehicle. One that you can use to get from point A to point B. Many people do not know that. For example, a motorcyclist friend of mine recently asked me on which side of the road cyclists were supposed to travel. He believed that they should travel on the left in right-hand drive traffic. His justification was that bicycles are somehow similar to pedestrians. This oversimplification is the result of car culture becoming so dominant that nobody even bothers to learn about the existence of something beyond motorized vehicles.

You see, it's not you, OP, that should be blamed for this animosity between many drivers and many cyclists. But it's not cyclists either. It's the establishment and the way people are taught from an early age that cycling is something done by children, athletes and homeless people. Unfortunately, I don't see that idea changing any time soon, because there really is no incentive for anyone to defend cyclists' right to using the public roads, except for cyclists themselves.
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Old 06-29-15, 03:41 PM
  #48  
MMACH 5
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Originally Posted by vatdim View Post
Well, OP, to be fair, your point does come across as somewhat extreme here on BikeForums, but that's probably not your fault. Being both a driver and a cyclist, I have come across this mentality quite often, I know how most motorists like to oversimplify things and say "To hell with cyclists, blocking up traffic!". The fact of the matter is, ever since I started cycling more regularly, and on busier roads, I realized that bicycles almost never block traffic. Yes, cyclists in your way could make you decrease your speed and initiate a passing maneuver, after looking in the mirror and signalling. But that is the greatest amount of discomfort you could possibly sustain, attributable to a cyclist who is following standard vehicle laws. As others have already mentioned, a stopped car (whether to turn left, to attempt parallel parking or simply to drop someone off) will cause you to definitely stop, look for a greater gap in traffic and move inside the whole oncoming lane in order to proceed your journey. Since those occurrences seem much more frequent, is there any reason to despise cyclists more than drivers?

You mention that you ride an MTB and take pleasure in the sport. I salute you for that. But your explanation seems to indicate that you believe cycling as a whole to be a sport. Something many motorists would believe wholeheartedly. The truth is, the bicycle, although it can be used for all sorts of sporting events, such as downhill, track cycling, racing, etc., is first and foremost, a vehicle. One that you can use to get from point A to point B. Many people do not know that. For example, a motorcyclist friend of mine recently asked me on which side of the road cyclists were supposed to travel. He believed that they should travel on the left in right-hand drive traffic. His justification was that bicycles are somehow similar to pedestrians. This oversimplification is the result of car culture becoming so dominant that nobody even bothers to learn about the existence of something beyond motorized vehicles.

You see, it's not you, OP, that should be blamed for this animosity between many drivers and many cyclists. But it's not cyclists either. It's the establishment and the way people are taught from an early age that cycling is something done by children, athletes and homeless people. Unfortunately, I don't see that idea changing any time soon, because there really is no incentive for anyone to defend cyclists' right to using the public roads, except for cyclists themselves.
Read this.
And if there are any questions, read this again.

Well said, vatdim.
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Old 06-29-15, 04:03 PM
  #49  
benjdm
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Originally Posted by concerned View Post
My issue is that someone would cause traffic issues on busy roads because they just wanted to have fun. I doubt there's any law to prevent me from passing gas in a restaurant booth next to you, but if you found out I was ruining your dinner because I just enjoyed farting and believed I had a right to do so, you would probably be frustrated too. Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should.
Meh. My frustration would be minimal in both cases. Keeping to the topic of biking for recreation during rush hour, it is something I try and avoid. *shrug*

Rush hour automobiles slow me down when I'm commuting. You don't hear me cursing out the drivers. (Example: https://youtu.be/cJgBm63DD0E ) And they're delaying me for about 3 minutes! Drivers get annoyed by me on high speed roads when I delay them by 30 seconds.

As for the original reason for roads being for bicycles, I contend that point by mentioning that roads have been around far longer than bicycles. When "traffic" on these roads got to be much too fast for pedestrians, they were moved to sidewalks to make way for the faster moving vehicles.
They were? There are plenty of roads - the majority of them in my town - without sidewalks at all. Joggers sometimes like to run in the road even when there are sidewalks. And I would bet there were paths for walking even before roads instead of them being a creation after automobiles started to dominate...yup, seems so: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sidewalk#History

My main gripe is just with the folks that are joyriding on busy streets during rush hour. I yearn for the day where we in metro Atlanta have a more balanced transportation system as a whole, where mass transit is more viable and the sheer density of cars on the over-stressed roads is somehow alleviated. However, I doubt that will happen in my lifetime. For now, our traffic situation here (and in many other places in the country) just flat out sucks. For the overwhelming majority of commuters, motorized vehicles are the only viable option to get around. The sad truth (in light of the environment) is that bicycles make an already terrible situation even worse. Maybe the solution is more bike lanes. Is there an organization that works to promote the development of bike lanes?
Your rush hour must be not as bad as mine. In my rush hour, traffic slows below biking speeds and bicyclists don't delay me at all in my car. I don't think bikes are making rush hour traffic worse than other cars are.
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Old 06-30-15, 07:27 AM
  #50  
jfmckenna
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Originally Posted by MMACH 5 View Post
Read this.
And if there are any questions, read this again.

Well said, vatdim.
+1
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