Notices
Advocacy & Safety Cyclists should expect and demand safe accommodation on every public road, just as do all other users. Discuss your bicycle advocacy and safety concerns here.

Bike lanes

Old 04-24-05, 09:08 PM
  #1  
jslopez
Zen Cyclist
Thread Starter
 
jslopez's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 1,458

Bikes: Orbea Orca Campified...

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Bike lanes

so I was pretty much oblivious on this issue (as an everyday commuter who rides on streets with and without bike lanes with no accidents so far) but today my opinion has been swayed.

I was riding with my wife on Main Street (Santa Monica, Socal). We were at a tail end of a ride and main street with it's bike lanes "should" have been the most harmless part of the ride, sunny day, we're in our bright bike clothes and ofcourse the evil F$%$$%king bike lane.

In in the left lane a car passes us then drives slows, kind of drifting into the bike lane. I shout "BIKE LANE" and the lady heads back to her lane. My wife then proceeds and is just beside her car when this lady moves into the bike lane, hitting my wife and knocing her down. I thank all known deities that my wife doesn't seem to have any major injuries (we're headed to the doctor now) and I must admit I was a bit torn about how to react. On the one hand I wanted to beat the crap out of this lady who says she didn't see us (I guess bright orange and yellow jerseys and me screaming at her is easy to tune out, on the other she had kids in her car, seemed truly apologetic, apparently she rode as well as had an accident last december which just seemed to make this whole incident even more enraging.

The bike is headed to the bike shop to check and with any luck my wife will walk away with no injuries but outside all this I just feel so bad as she literally just learned to ride a bike in August, did the Solvang half century in March and now she's afraid to ride a bike again...

I just hate all cars and bike lanes right now, thanks for bearing thru this rant.
jslopez is offline  
Old 04-24-05, 09:16 PM
  #2  
STEEKER
dam this is fun !
 
STEEKER's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: on my bike ! in Toronto !!
Posts: 1,988

Bikes: Hurricane Low Racer ! and a Masi

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
The bike lane is not at fault it was the lady drivers actions of not staying allert which is very common with cagers
STEEKER is offline  
Old 04-24-05, 09:18 PM
  #3  
Dchiefransom
Senior Member
 
Dchiefransom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Newark, CA. San Francisco Bay Area
Posts: 6,250
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 30 Post(s)
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
It's not the bike lanes, it's the drivers not paying attention. I've been forced out of the right hand lane while I was riding almost in the center of it. When a cyclist is in the right lane, and a car is in the left, the situation is no different. Was the woman arrested and taken to jail? Was she even given a ticket for carless driving? Did the police officer take her license on the spot? Until these drastic actions happen, nothing will change. See the thread about cyclists running red lights. When nothing happens, behavior doesn't change.
Dchiefransom is offline  
Old 04-24-05, 09:20 PM
  #4  
suntreader
Out of breath again.
 
suntreader's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Myrtle Beach SC
Posts: 645
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Bike lanes are better than no bike lanes.

Let us pray for the day when drivers will learn to obey traffic laws as well as we do.
suntreader is offline  
Old 04-24-05, 09:21 PM
  #5  
larue
Senior Member
 
larue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Madison, WI
Posts: 1,511

Bikes: Surly Pacer/Cutter/Viking

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
If she was swaying into the bike lane what makes you think she wouldn't have swayed off the road? How is this the fault of the bike lane?

When I spot suspicious cars I stay away from them until it's safe to pass.
larue is offline  
Old 04-24-05, 09:26 PM
  #6  
sunninho
Go Titans!!
 
sunninho's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Culver City, CA
Posts: 2,489

Bikes: '04 Eddy Merckx Team SC - Record - Rolf Prima Vigor; Andy Hampsten Cinghiale - Dura Ace 7800 - Rolf Elan Aero

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
You know, LA is just not a bike-friendly city. I live on the west side and no matter where I ride -- Santa Monica, Brentwood, Venice, PCH to Malibu, Culver City, even the beach paths -- I'm pretty paranoid.

I like bike lanes, though, but this is a car-centric city and the drivers just don't look out for us. It's a shame that lady actually rides, herself, and never saw you guys. I always go out of my way to make room for bikes, even motorbikes. Sorry this happened to you and your wife, man. Glad to hear she's ok.
sunninho is offline  
Old 04-24-05, 09:36 PM
  #7  
twahl
Tom (ex)Builder
 
twahl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Manassas, VA
Posts: 2,814

Bikes: Specialized Allez

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by larue
If she was swaying into the bike lane what makes you think she wouldn't have swayed off the road? How is this the fault of the bike lane?

When I spot suspicious cars I stay away from them until it's safe to pass.
That was my thought too. See someone act erratic, you stay away from them. It's a terrible thing to have happen, especially to someone that might be kind of tentative about riding anyway, and I hope she's OK.

I do have one thought here, because I never fail to be amazed by the contempt many cyclists have for drivers. Cagers? Give me a break. We do hear stories of cyclists (or at least people riding bicycles) that run into people going the wrong way on bike lines. We hear about people falling over when they are startled by someone saying "on your left" and crashing them. We hear about people touching rear wheels and going ass over tea kettle. We hear about "cyclists" clobbering pedestrians. We hear about recreational bike riders weaving all over from lane to lane on MUPs and taking someone out. Obviously these accidents have far less potential of being fatal. Here's my question - considering the number of cyclists you encounter vs. the number of automobile operators you encounter, what might be the percentage of accidents per encounter for each type? Seems to me that when I'm on my bike, I encounter probably 200 cars or more for every cyclist, but I'm just as likely in that same time period to have a fellow cyclist do something stupid.
__________________
Tom

"It hurts so good..."
twahl is offline  
Old 04-24-05, 10:09 PM
  #8  
Roody
Sophomoric Member
 
Roody's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Dancing in Lansing
Posts: 24,221
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 711 Post(s)
Liked 4 Times in 4 Posts
Several people pointed out that it is not the bike lane that was at fault, but the driver. True enough. However, it seems that another lesson here is that bike lanes do little, if anything, to protect cyclists from inattentive motorists. I mean, why would one expect a strip of paint to stop a car from hitting a cyclist? I see two problems with bike lanes illustrated here. One is that they give some motorists and cyclists a false sense of security. The other is that if they do not work, then bike lanes are a waste of money. Perhaps more cyclist's lives would be saved if we used that money to educate the horrible cyclists decried by some of the posters here.

And twahl--your comments are asinine and irrelevant. The OP's wife was not doing anything wrong! She was just riding in the bike lane like a good little cyclist. If you hate cyclists and love cagers so much--do us a favor and hang out on the car forum instead of the bike forum.
Roody is offline  
Old 04-24-05, 10:15 PM
  #9  
Roody
Sophomoric Member
 
Roody's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Dancing in Lansing
Posts: 24,221
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 711 Post(s)
Liked 4 Times in 4 Posts
Originally Posted by Dchiefransom
[...]Was the woman arrested and taken to jail? Was she even given a ticket for carless driving? Did the police officer take her license on the spot? Until these drastic actions happen, nothing will change. See the thread about cyclists running red lights. When nothing happens, behavior doesn't change.
That was a hilarious slip! Of course, if there was any such thing as justice for cyclists, the woman would be carless. That is, her license would be suspended and her car immobilized as punishment for her negligence.
Roody is offline  
Old 04-24-05, 10:25 PM
  #10  
twahl
Tom (ex)Builder
 
twahl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Manassas, VA
Posts: 2,814

Bikes: Specialized Allez

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Roody
And twahl--your comments are asinine and irrelevant. The OP's wife was not doing anything wrong! She was just riding in the bike lane like a good little cyclist. If you hate cyclists and love cagers so much--do us a favor and hang out on the car forum instead of the bike forum.
You missed the point. I didn't say that js's wife had done anything wrong. Experience might have told her to be more wary, but she doesn't have the benefit of experience.

My point is that I frequently see people on bicycles doing things that are far more indicative of not paying attention, more frequently on a "per incident" basis than I do drivers.

I find the term "cagers" offensive. Comments like this:

"The bike lane is not at fault it was the lady drivers actions of not staying allert which is very common with cagers"

is what's assinine. If it were that common, you wouldn't be able to step outside your door without being run over by a car, and we obviously all can. If it was all that common, js's wife wouldn't have been able to ride for 8 months before she had her first accident.

Implying that I hate cyclists is assinine, although my comments certainly may have been more appropriate in their own thread. For that, I apologize.
__________________
Tom

"It hurts so good..."
twahl is offline  
Old 04-24-05, 10:52 PM
  #11  
Roody
Sophomoric Member
 
Roody's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Dancing in Lansing
Posts: 24,221
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 711 Post(s)
Liked 4 Times in 4 Posts
Why do you find cagers to be an offensive term? Did you know that the term derives from our perception that people in metal cars are like animals in metal cages? Unlike us, they are not free to go wherever they want. They have not had the liberating experience of moving rapidly through space under their own power. Furthermore, they are mentally imprisoned by their idiotic belief that autos are the best or only way to get somewhere.

As cyclists, we are free. We have a better life than those who are stuck in cages. I certainly don't mean to offend cagers--I just pity them a bit.
Roody is offline  
Old 04-24-05, 10:58 PM
  #12  
twahl
Tom (ex)Builder
 
twahl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Manassas, VA
Posts: 2,814

Bikes: Specialized Allez

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
So automobile drivers are stupid animals to be pitied. Gotcha.

I love my bicycle, but I find it to be rather difficult to transport 70 board feet of rough cut oak with it. Sometimes a motor vehicle is the only or best way to get somewhere.
__________________
Tom

"It hurts so good..."
twahl is offline  
Old 04-24-05, 11:23 PM
  #13  
Roody
Sophomoric Member
 
Roody's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Dancing in Lansing
Posts: 24,221
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 711 Post(s)
Liked 4 Times in 4 Posts
Originally Posted by twahl
So automobile drivers are stupid animals to be pitied. Gotcha.

I love my bicycle, but I find it to be rather difficult to transport 70 board feet of rough cut oak with it. Sometimes a motor vehicle is the only or best way to get somewhere.
I'm glad you love your bicycle--I guess it's just cyclists you don't love. Gotcha.
Roody is offline  
Old 04-24-05, 11:27 PM
  #14  
twahl
Tom (ex)Builder
 
twahl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Manassas, VA
Posts: 2,814

Bikes: Specialized Allez

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Roody
I'm glad you love your bicycle--I guess it's just cyclists you don't love. Gotcha.
yep, that's exactly what I said, that I hate cyclists.
__________________
Tom

"It hurts so good..."
twahl is offline  
Old 04-24-05, 11:31 PM
  #15  
jslopez
Zen Cyclist
Thread Starter
 
jslopez's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 1,458

Bikes: Orbea Orca Campified...

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
I actually should have been a bit more clear (as I was too pissed earleir and we were headed to the ER). First off I don't think this was due to my wife's general newness to cycling (as she has been commuting to work and back for the last few months) and in this occasion, we saw the lady swerve, we yelled our presence, she went back to her lane and as my wife was alongside the car it swerves into the bike lane again. I don't think this person was a bad (or that cars are bad for that matter) my concern was that the lady (who apparently was a cyclist) had no concept to check the lane before parking, moreso since it was a bike lane. When on a regular road, you check the next lane over because you think you may hit something, I had thought that for bike lanes it would be the same thing. A few months back this happened to me on the same road, I maneuvered away in time and the guy was apologetic so I chalked it up to random chances. Now my wife almost paid dearly for that.
jslopez is offline  
Old 04-24-05, 11:49 PM
  #16  
twahl
Tom (ex)Builder
 
twahl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Manassas, VA
Posts: 2,814

Bikes: Specialized Allez

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Sounds like her drifting back out of the bike lane when you yelled was purely coincidental. inatentive people can be dangerous even if they are walking. Obviously you are back from the ER now, everything is OK with your wife?
__________________
Tom

"It hurts so good..."
twahl is offline  
Old 04-24-05, 11:55 PM
  #17  
Roody
Sophomoric Member
 
Roody's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Dancing in Lansing
Posts: 24,221
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 711 Post(s)
Liked 4 Times in 4 Posts
Originally Posted by twahl
yep, that's exactly what I said, that I hate cyclists.
I'm pretty sure you do. You started out by saying the lady should have avoided the car that hit her--like it was her fault! Then you hijack the thread to launch a diatribe against cyclists, implying that we are usually at fault because we ride the wrong way or something. Also you say that a word we commonly use is offensive to motorists, but you don't express any concerns about a cager swerving into a bike lane. You definitely talk like you don't have much use for us.

Personally, I don't have anything against cagers--sometimes (rarely) I am one. But I sure don't see much point in talking like one! And I sure don't understand why some people defend them in this thread, when they were clearly in the wrong.
Roody is offline  
Old 04-25-05, 12:00 AM
  #18  
jslopez
Zen Cyclist
Thread Starter
 
jslopez's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 1,458

Bikes: Orbea Orca Campified...

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Yes she is ok, thanks for asking.

I can understand the objectiveness of your point of view. It's just hard to be objective when it's somebody you care about who's on the line you then go from logic and statistics to a real person. Once that happens, figures provide little assurance.
jslopez is offline  
Old 04-25-05, 12:13 AM
  #19  
nycm'er
militant commuter
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: lower manhattan
Posts: 476
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
JS, TWAHL is right, bikers are at fault even when cars do stupid things to them, and it's your fault not your wife's, besides, with out bike lanes, where is every one gonna double park?

Does ManAsses VA have even one car in it? I would like to propose the idea that TWAHL does not ride a bike at all.
Have fun reading all my past posts Tom, does that "hurt so good?"

Last edited by nycm'er; 04-25-05 at 12:38 AM. Reason: misspelling
nycm'er is offline  
Old 04-25-05, 02:37 AM
  #20  
lilHinault
.
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: .
Posts: 3,094

Bikes: .

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
I'll agree with Twahl, I think the competency of drivers is higher than the competency of cyclists, on the road. This is because drivers drive daily, and probably have been doing so since high school. Cyclists range from the uber-expert to the screamin' Fred who does everything wrong - not intentionally, just never got trained, and generally has not been using a bike as a primary vehicle since before adulthood.

It's cycling's dirty little secret, and it's about time we faced it.

What will cure it? More cyclists on the streets and more people considering a bicycle to be a true vehicle just "as good as" or "as respectable as" a car, and the only thing I can think of that will cure that is $10 gas or a Depression happening that makes $3 gas as expensive to the average person as $10 gas. When that happens, we'll see a cycling golden age, we'll see decent train and public transport service again, and then we'll be able to if it's really a more fun way to live. Part of me thinks...

Yes!! With a population riding more, we'll have much less of the anxiety/depression that goes with the sedentary lifestyle, and we'll see lots of people realizing that not putting $500-$1000 a month into owning a car means more money for more worthwhile things. We'll see car accident deaths go down, as motor vehicles will be tend to be owned by "professional" drivers such as delivery, the local contractor with a truck full of tools and wood, transport drivers like cabs and buses etc. It will be easy to have a car lane and a whole lane for bikes under these circumstances. More riders on the road means if I get hit by a car, there are many biker eyes getting the guy's license number and many hands helping me out.

But part of me thinks.....

Cars become out of the financial reach of most but since they who have the gold make the rules, public transportation continues to lag far behind the need. Not everyone is physically able to thrive walking/biking everywhere and the younger family member puffing along with poor sick old Grandpa or Grandma (or parent) stuffed in a Burley trailer going to/from the hospital becomes a not uncommon sight. With cars/trucks rarer, there are less bicyclists being hit, but since everyone's poorer, unfortunately, crime tends to spring up and bikers getting knocked down and bike stolen, even pockets gone through or worse becomes a factor to worry about. Accidents with motor vehicles become rarer but accidents between bikers skyrocket. The old term "scorcher" comes into use again and it's not one of endearment. Slow-speed bike accidents tend to be more comical than anything else, and everyone untangles and has a good laugh or a good cuss and goes on, but America is still the land of the rush hour and the long commute, so many cyclists ride too fast, endangering themselves and others. Plus cycling's other dirty little secret, the single-vehicle accident. The well-meaning folks at the NTSB shake their heads, as in the new bike age travel has become actually more dangerous...... People pine for the old car-dominated days the way we pine for the Old West or the 1950s now...

There you have it, two views. I wonder which one we'll see?

Meanwhile, we've got to educate, educate, educate! In motorcycle circles, it's not all that uncommon to have a Motorcycle Safety Foundation graduate type, or one of the local Hell's Angels, give you a tip or two if they see you doing something foolish that looks like a lack of training. Up in San Francisco the skaters have the "skate patrol" which is a group of skaters who wear red shirts, and go around giving new skaters lessons in safe braking and skating, and otherwise help out. We're in a situation where bikers and "cagers" all need more education and need to become more conscious of what we're doing.
lilHinault is offline  
Old 04-25-05, 05:28 AM
  #21  
LittleBigMan
Sumanitu taka owaci
 
LittleBigMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 8,945
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
Mr. Lopez, I am very sympathetic to your wife's crash.

If Mrs. Lopez can get back on the bike as soon as possible, she'll be fine. But don't push her.
__________________
No worries
LittleBigMan is offline  
Old 04-25-05, 08:57 AM
  #22  
genec
genec
 
genec's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: West Coast
Posts: 26,690

Bikes: custom built, sannino, beachbike, giant trance x2

Mentioned: 47 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9873 Post(s)
Liked 2,066 Times in 1,417 Posts
Originally Posted by lilHinault
I'll agree with Twahl, I think the competency of drivers is higher than the competency of cyclists, on the road. This is because drivers drive daily, and probably have been doing so since high school. Cyclists range from the uber-expert to the screamin' Fred...
Fair assesment, however I would like to add that sadly too many drivers never improve over their initially taught skills, and in fact go on to later learn bad habits that actually degrade the lessons originally taught to them since high school.

Too many drivers fail to look, signal, and assume they know the laws, younger male drivers tend to push their vehicles to the limits for the thrill of the ride.

So while we really want to believe that motorists are quite skilled, but the reality is that there are also "uber-experts to the screamin' Freds" out there behind the wheel.

Add to that the distractions of auto entertainment systems and cell phones and the picture is not pretty.

If you don't believe what I say... simply find a good vantage point some time over a major intersection or freeway and watch the traffic for a while, you will see some surprisingly dumb moves and bad driving habits.
genec is offline  
Old 04-25-05, 09:13 AM
  #23  
noisebeam
Arizona Dessert
 
noisebeam's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: AZ
Posts: 14,955

Bikes: Cannondale SuperSix, Lemond Poprad. Retired: Jamis Sputnik, Centurion LeMans Fixed, Diamond Back ascent ex

Mentioned: 73 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4876 Post(s)
Liked 1,556 Times in 921 Posts
Originally Posted by suntreader
Bike lanes are better than no bike lanes.
I'd venture to say that is debatable

(not again here in this thread though please)

Al
noisebeam is offline  
Old 04-25-05, 09:32 AM
  #24  
Roody
Sophomoric Member
 
Roody's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Dancing in Lansing
Posts: 24,221
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 711 Post(s)
Liked 4 Times in 4 Posts
lilHinault--I think roads are designed to be more or less idiot-proof for motorists, not for cyclists. For example, the driver in the OP scenario drifted into the bike lane more than once, qualifying as idiotic cager behavior. Nevertheless, had Mrs. L. not been there, the driver would not have suffered any mishap as a result of her poor driving. This is because traffic lanes (whether there is a bike lane or not) are designed to be wider than the cars, providing a "fudge factor" for inexpert drivers like this one. However, there is no fudge factor for cyclists because roads were not designed for cyclists. Therefore, cyclists end up looking like idiots even when they are not idiots, as in this case. In other words, our roads are designed to protect inexpert cagers at the expense of competent cyclists. And in this case, the bike lane supposedly designed for cyclists failed to protect poor Mrs. L.

Again, I do not understand why people are using this particular thread--which is about a fellow cyclist who was the actual victim of a lousy driver and poor road design--to harp on the (supposed) poor traffic handling abilities of other (hypothetical) cyclists.
Roody is offline  
Old 04-25-05, 09:38 AM
  #25  
jslopez
Zen Cyclist
Thread Starter
 
jslopez's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 1,458

Bikes: Orbea Orca Campified...

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by LittleBigMan
Mr. Lopez, I am very sympathetic to your wife's crash.

If Mrs. Lopez can get back on the bike as soon as possible, she'll be fine. But don't push her.

All I'm pushing for is for her to get some good TLC.

She's a strong one and will be back on the bike (in her own time ofcourse).
jslopez is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information -

Copyright 2021 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.