genec

Problem one is almost economically unsolveable... I live in an area with mesas separated by canyons, the only connecting roads are arterials... not the thing you want kids riding on.

I would love to see alternative routes, such as overpasses and other facilities... Don't think it will happen in the near term... heck, last year they laid off the field maintenance folks for the school sport fields here in San Diego... the city is having some real budget problems...

Meanwhile "little Johnny" is not going to ride on the 45 MPH streets.

Roody

Genec--you've mentioned the traffic flow in SD before. I lived there for a while in the 1970s. One thing I liked was that geography carved the city up into cool little neighborhoods. Back then, each neighborhood contained elementary and middle schools that local kids could easily walk or bike to. Now schools are larger (consolidated) and kids have to go much farther. This trend was of course a direct result of our increased use of autos!

genec

Different areas have different traffic flow too... I used to live in the "City Heights" part of town and found I could easily find back routes and neighborhood streets to get where I wanted to go.

In the area of town where I now live, there are many more canyons (which actually make the area desirable) but the surrounding mesas are connected with just high-speed arterials.

The bottom line is that what works well in one area may not work well in another... just as bike lanes may easily be a waste in some cities, but in others they are part of the entire traffic design.

I for one really appreciate BL when chugging up some of the steep hills in the area that climb out of the canyons... autos are typically doing 45MPH up those hills while I might be doing 4-6MPH.

Of course area has also grown... "back country" areas such as old hiway 94 used to be a great country ride... I went out to Dulzura every weekend. Now that road is highly overloaded due to the development out that way... yet the road has only been partially improved.

Torrey Pines road used to be a great flat fast cruise down a tree lined boulevard with tall Eucalyptus trees providing shade along the way. It has since been re-aligned and stop lights have been added such that is it a heavy arterial with bumper to bumper traffic in the afternoons.

The area has changed quite a bit since the '70s.

Travelinguyrt

Current issue of a leading Brit cycling mag had a story about the VERY farsighted mayor of London allocating AND making available not just promising, 1.5 Milllion lbs . to educate 5th and 6th grade kids about bike riding

sbhikes

I ride to work through one of the most wealthy neighborhoods on earth. I do understand that parents might not want to let their precious cargo ride around on narrow, winding residential streets with no bike lanes or sidewalks. And don't get me started on the vast number of cell phone BMW/Mercedes race car drivers.

But...the other day as I approached a man out for his morning jog and we were nearing the school, a minivan drove past and a little girl yelled out the window, "Hi Daddy!"

I really thought that man should ride his bike with one of those extension thingies so his daughter could ride with him. Both would be getting exercise, the man would get quality time with his kid, they could leave the mini-van at home and save some traffic problems on that street. Heck, mom could ride along side, too.

Anyway, about that comment earlier about kids should be forced to ride bikes to school. I was forced. Sure I hated it. But look at me now!

steveknight

do you think abductions are anything new? it's jsut that we hear mroe about them now. walking is not any more safe then riding hell I ahve gotten so close to getting hit walking 1000 times more then on my bike.

zbicyclist

Abduction is rare. "a comprehensive study by the
Justice Department" which showed "'stereotypical kidnappings' ... in which
children were taken by strangers who intended to keep them, held at least
overnight, or transported 50 miles are more -- numbered between 200 and 300 a
year. Of those, somewhere between 43 and 147 children were killed....
children taken by other family members, usually in the course of custody
disputes, accounted for about 350,000 cases a year...(but) in only 1% of the
cases was a child permanently spirited away..."
Source: Margaret Talbot, The New Republic, March 15, 1999 p 34.

Another reference to the 200-300 number is here, even though the site itself is clearly oriented toward abduction alarm:
https://www.dragon4kids.com/special_r...ds%20Safe.html

I'm the parent of a blonde haired, blue-eyed girl also (she's now 17). Certainly there is considerable information to impart to daughters and sons about the various evils that can befall them and how they should react, but statistically there are a lot of things to be more worried about than abduction. (Friends with substance abuse problems are very high on my personal horror list.)

Just to put some scale around it, consider that there are over 40,000 people killed in the US in traffic accidents each year. Over 2,000 of these are children under 14 [ https://www.cdc.gov/ncipc/factsheets/drving.htm ]

closetbiker

Thanks. I knew someone would come up with that. It puts things in perspective and can re-focus us on what should be a higher priority concern.

joejack951

How many here actually know someone who was abducted? How many here know someone who was killed in a car accident?

The only abduction story I ever heard (not on the news, and FWIW I haven't watched the news since 9/11) was in my sister's neighborhood. Turned out the girl made it up to get attention from her parents...I almost killed myself twice as a teenager in car accidents, not to mention the times I almost died but didn't wreck the car.

joejack951

One more point, if more kids were out there riding to school, don't you think all those parents on the roads would slow down a bit, especially if their own kids were out there?

recursive

There was a case around here last year that made national news of a female college student who faked her own abduction, apparently to get attention from her boyfriend or something. It was hugely controversial, and she ended up moving to another city and school. Car accidents are relatively common place. They are at least weekly on the news. Yet, the fake abduction is the only one I have heard of in this area.

Feldman

I grew up partly in the Hancock Park area of L.A. in the 1960's--there were many Orthodox and Hasidic Jews near us. A visible number of the adults cycled on the Sabbath but wouldn't drive--driving more met the definition of "work!" L'Chaim!

Dang

The car. It's all the cars fault! We have became slaves to them. We design and plan our cities for them. How did we get so screwed up that now were not allowing children to ride to school because of traffic?!

steveknight

cars tend to make people anti social too. they are in a little box for so long isolated from the world. people tend nto to talk to neibors anymore and they tend to feel safe in a car so they can vent their anger easier while protected in a box. I feel sorry for drivers

lilHinault

Feldman that's interesting, I know one of the things considered work is lighting a fire, so starting an engine is considered work. I guess a bike's not that! As long as you don't lock it right? - Because then you have to carry the key..... and that's work ..... so you hop on the bike at home and then off to synagogue then home, pretty cool. I was just reading somewhere on the net that the Amish consider roller skates and with some groups, inline skates to be OK and they don't use a lot of modern stuff - they actually consider bicycles to be too modern hehe :-)

zbicyclist

Amish and Mennonites reflect a variety of opinions. There seemed to be a lot of bikes in the Amish areas of northeastern Indiana the last time I was riding there. These seemed to be older, plain models.

phidauex

One of my heros, physicist Richard Feynman (very neat guy), wrote about when he was doing the research that led to his nobel prize, he was in a building shared with a Jewish studies program, and would frequently see Rabbis around. He thought he'd have some fun with them, so one day on the elevator he asked them if lighting fires was considered 'work', and they agreed. Then he asked if they used electricity, and they said they did, and that electricity wasn't considered 'fire' theologically speaking. But then he told them about how when you press a switch, there is a moment when the switch contacts are almost, but not completely, connected, when an arc will jump through the air, ionizing it, which meets the physical definition of 'fire', so using electricity means you have to light little fires all the time. He thought he'd 'caught' them, but they had a complex explanation for his problem, and the two of them debated back and forth for hours. Eventually he learned that while they were studying something very different from what he was studying, that they were working just as hard, and were just as fierce of logical debators, and ended up spending a lot of time with them, just to enjoy the thrill of worthy debate.

About the kids riding to school thing... Crossing guards and riding in groups are inexpensive but helpful solutions. Traffic is a huge danger, abduction is incredibly minimal. Fortunately, there ARE ways to limit the traffic danger, people just don't want to do them, since they'd rather drive, and its easier to just find rationalizations for that choice.

peace,
sam

dedhed

Here are some of the reasons my children don't bike to school. Female 14 (11Miles), M 13 (5-6), F 6 (8)
Not one of them goes to school any closer than 5-6 miles. that's mostly due to our specialty school setup here.

The older ones start at 7:30 AM. thats a minumum of of 5 mi in rush hour traffic on numerous busy streets (the one we live on is 40 MPH and ask if anyone goes that).
You try to get a teen out of bed any earlier than they have to which is currenty 5:50 AM to catch bus at 6:38.

I don't know if any of you has lifted a high schoolers backpack lately (one that actually gets decent grades) without a doubt my daughters weighs a minumum of 25 lbs. OK panniers, now they are going to move books back and forth to the backpack? not likely.

Bikes stolen, jacked, damaged etc.

Afterschool activities, now they can ride home in the dark on busy streets or come home to an empty house because a different one had to be driven somewhere else for an activity.
school year here falls in plenty of winter (30 F this AM) cuts out a big chunk of riding season.

The 6 YO is pretty self explanatory

Abduction, while a nice media hype, doesn't really enter into my mind, might be a midwestern thing, I don't know. I probably would worry more about them getting abducted standing on the corner waiting for the school bus more than riding along on the street.

I know they are not the kids everyone is worried about, we don't have Cable, Xbox, playstation etc. Yes they watch plenty of TV, sit on this computer, lay around reading books, magazines etc. But I also see them bust butt playing soccer, rock climbing, doing yard work, and other active things. While not strict diet watchers (this is the dairy state, not to mention beer and brats) we don't fill them full of chips, soda and a bunch of junk. The older ones really don't care to bike but will on vacations and charity rides pull 25 miles without too much complaint. They'll ride the mile or so up to church through the subdivision for activities and an occasional couple down the bike trail nearby. the 6 YO loves going out on the tag a long and is one of my favorite ride partners.

Just my perspectives, opinions and situation, Your milage may vary.

I-Like-To-Bike

Dedhed's perspectives are in synch with my own. My children did ride bicycles to school when it was practical and it best served their needs or desires. Few children are going to ride bicycles to school to satisfy their parent(s)' political/social agenda.

I often wonder how many people, who cannot understand why other families don't embrace a car free life or demand/expect their (or others') children to be "Car-free", have school age children and/or have ever left their cozy college town (or unique US public transportation environment like NYC)? I could be wrong but I suspect not many.

Daily Commute

I live a few doors down from an elementary neighborhood school. Even though the school mainly draws kids from about a mile radius, I rarely see more than a few bikes on the bike racks. Only a few kids walk to or from school along. But I do see a long line of cars at the begining and end of the school day (actually, the school will keep the kids until 5 or 6 to accomodate parents' work schedules). There may be a few kids who come from miles away, but not enough to explain the long line of cars.

I started riding to school in the third grade (eight years old). My parents treated requests for rides with complete disdain. I might have well have asked to eat only desserts or for a house of my own. Walking or riding to school was something kids just had to do in their opinion. And I'm grateful.

I'm not condemning all parents who drive their kids to school. As dedhed explained, many have perfectly valid reasons (including some schools being built on major roads). But there are so many parents chauffeuring their kids that it's clear that at least a few of them are overprotective dolts who just don't know when to let go.

Moonshot

It's not at all helpful that the current trend in school construction is to build on the outside perimeter of a developed area often only accessible by a highway or other high traffic road.

Once schools were developed within the neighborhood. I'm fortunate to have a middle school that will be accessible by bike for my kids. Also, I'm involved in trying to get our city to develop access to our local high school for bikers and walkers. We all should get involved in making our officials know our concerns regarding this. If you're not, you're just wasting space on this thread.

dedhed

I agree too many are transported by car but I can't say anything without knowing the transportation scheme for a school district. Mine have yellow bus service and only get a ride if they miss it or scheduling conflicts require it. Time, time, time drives a lot of parent/child actions. I will also comment that many childrens activities do not revolve around the school in this day and age. Many need to be picked up to be transported to other activities away from school on tight time schedules. I know it's not unusual to have 2 of my kids needing to be in locations 30 miles apart at effectively the same time. It's not unusual for me to spend a good share of a weekend in my car playing chauffer and doing 150-200 miles. Sure cuts into bike riding time.
Schools being built on the periphery can also be driven by land costs. Can the school board afford to by the acres needed when people are paying $50-100K for a ¼-½ acre lot? Maybe the developers will donate 10-20 acres out of the goodness of their hearts and forgo the profit. Not in my world. I have never seen a new school go up in an existing area, but I have seen these schools will in the next 10-20 years be built up to and around. Which when you think about it makes perfect sense.

Moonshot

Yeah, that's true but the schools will still be located on major arteries which was my point. I didn't state that part too well, I guess.

Roody

The "trend" of building schools in outlying areas is almost totally dou to the prevailing policy of developing facilities that are convenient for auto users and almost inaccessible to all other users. This is one of the most devastating consequences of auto dependency in North America.

trekets

I agree with much of what you say, but sprawl has a lot to do with it. Where you currently live and where I live in New Jersey is much different than say the suburbs of Atlanta where McNeighborhoods are separated by 6 lane highways with box stores on both sides and no safe shoulders to bicycle on and in many cases no sidewalks to walk on.

I visit family down there frequently and you need a car to go anywhere.