Group Rides bad for solo riding traffic skills?
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Group Rides bad for solo riding traffic skills?
Let me start this question by saying that I love the group I ride with and the groups I've ridden with in the past. That being said I see weekend riding groups getting away with moves that aren't terribly unsafe with a group of cyclists, but if performed solo would be life threatening. While a lot of senior riders I know do things in a group ride they probably don't do when they are riding solo. I worry that newbies don't know the difference or that some folks do the majority of their riding only on the weekends and when they do finally go out solo they will be in for a big shock.
What makes it even more difficult is the group think and perceived invincibility of the rider when surrounded by the brightly colored members of their club. They pass on the right to the front of a stoplight, run stop signs, ride three abreast, etc. I don't want this to be another roadie bashing thread as there are also many skills developed by riding in a pack such as paceline skills, fit, training, love of the sport. More to the point how does one educate fellow cyclists, especially newbies about not riding in the door zone, being predictable, etc. The newbie looks around and sees everyone in the group doing one thing and the lone commuter doing his own thing. I end up looking like the miscreant and joy killer. Also am I less safe practicing VC when everyone else is following the group. The VC argument is usually to be predictable and visible by acting like a vehichle, but a group of 20 brightly clad cyclists is quite a distraction and by not being a part of this group you might render yourself invisible.
-Marcus.
Again please save the roadie bashing for your own thread, I am interested in a discussion about education.
What makes it even more difficult is the group think and perceived invincibility of the rider when surrounded by the brightly colored members of their club. They pass on the right to the front of a stoplight, run stop signs, ride three abreast, etc. I don't want this to be another roadie bashing thread as there are also many skills developed by riding in a pack such as paceline skills, fit, training, love of the sport. More to the point how does one educate fellow cyclists, especially newbies about not riding in the door zone, being predictable, etc. The newbie looks around and sees everyone in the group doing one thing and the lone commuter doing his own thing. I end up looking like the miscreant and joy killer. Also am I less safe practicing VC when everyone else is following the group. The VC argument is usually to be predictable and visible by acting like a vehichle, but a group of 20 brightly clad cyclists is quite a distraction and by not being a part of this group you might render yourself invisible.
-Marcus.
Again please save the roadie bashing for your own thread, I am interested in a discussion about education.
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When riding singly or in a very small group, VC should certainly apply. But imagine a peloton of 20 bicyclists approaching a four-way stop. I think it's completely reasonable for them to split into small sub-groups of perhaps four or five cyclists that go through at a time. There's no law to back up this practice, but around here the roadies can be there own critical mass of riders on a nice weekend.
This issue of ride safety has also been an issue in a local "cruiser night" event we have in my town. (This is not a critical mass.) There's not much lycra or jerseys on these rides, but some of the behavior can be similar: blowing through stop signs, riding three or four abreast across an entire lane, etc. On these rides we have a mix of experienced and educated VC riders and those who ride mostly on sidewalks and paths. I've wondered if these group rides might be encouraging bad behavior, or perhaps these rides show these sidewalk riders that riding on the street is in fact safe.
RFM
This issue of ride safety has also been an issue in a local "cruiser night" event we have in my town. (This is not a critical mass.) There's not much lycra or jerseys on these rides, but some of the behavior can be similar: blowing through stop signs, riding three or four abreast across an entire lane, etc. On these rides we have a mix of experienced and educated VC riders and those who ride mostly on sidewalks and paths. I've wondered if these group rides might be encouraging bad behavior, or perhaps these rides show these sidewalk riders that riding on the street is in fact safe.
RFM
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I agree. I even find this problem can occurs in small groups (2-3 people)
Even when I ride with my wife I find riding VC to be more difficult, because to ride VC you each need to act as a single vehicle, which means you may be merging and going on slightly different paths, even ending up between different cars in a line of traffic, which is contrary to 'riding together'. But as we communicate it works to each ride VC, but it takes mutual understanding that that is what you are doing vs. riding as a group.
Al
Even when I ride with my wife I find riding VC to be more difficult, because to ride VC you each need to act as a single vehicle, which means you may be merging and going on slightly different paths, even ending up between different cars in a line of traffic, which is contrary to 'riding together'. But as we communicate it works to each ride VC, but it takes mutual understanding that that is what you are doing vs. riding as a group.
Al
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Originally Posted by superdex
what's VC?
Search this forums for these same terms and also 'Serge' and 'Helmet Head'
Al
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I think the converse problem is more significant:
Too much solo riding messes up group riding skills.
Too much solo riding messes up group riding skills.
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Originally Posted by H23
I think the converse problem is more significant:
Too much solo riding messes up group riding skills.
Too much solo riding messes up group riding skills.
by other members of the group. Further worst case scenario
you have a bike/bike crash which most people walk away from
with only a little road rash. Where as poor traffic riding skills
can be deadly.
-Marcus.
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Originally Posted by superdex
sorry (I'd search for it if the search allowed it) -- what's VC?
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I strongly prefer solo rides, small group rides, or spread out larger group rides over densely clustered large group rides. Whether in a group or by myself, I ride in a fashion that I perceive as safe.
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Originally Posted by John E
I strongly prefer solo rides, small group rides, or spread out larger group rides over densely clustered large group rides. Whether in a group or by myself, I ride in a fashion that I perceive as safe.
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The group rides most people ever go on should be handled as one would a motor vehicle "caravan": Single file and spaced far enough apart to NOT "run into" each other but close enough to keep vsual contact with the members closest to them. If another vehicle--such as a cyclist who is not with the group-- wants to "pull-in", let them, if it is safe for them to do so.
If the group breaks up into several smaller ones? Don't sweat it, just keep going to your destination. (I'm sure you all have, in this situation, a common one.) Or, pull over and wait for the "stragglers" to catch up.
Always obey traffic law--maintaining a "pace" is not important, safety is!
In fact, all road users, even the ones training for racing should obey traffic law and break up large groups into smaller ones. Blocking the road is simply bad manners, even if it isn't technically illegal.
If the group breaks up into several smaller ones? Don't sweat it, just keep going to your destination. (I'm sure you all have, in this situation, a common one.) Or, pull over and wait for the "stragglers" to catch up.
Always obey traffic law--maintaining a "pace" is not important, safety is!
In fact, all road users, even the ones training for racing should obey traffic law and break up large groups into smaller ones. Blocking the road is simply bad manners, even if it isn't technically illegal.
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Interesting question. I ride as often as not with a small group: myself, my 10 year old daughter, my 13 year old son, and my wife on a recumbent. It's an interesting group, more like a unit. My son was sort of erratic but he's really getting pretty good about maintaining a line and a pace. My wife is still somewhat uncomfortable on the bike, although she loves it. She's just not real confident, especially with making any emergency maneuvers. My daughter rides a line well but needs sometimes needs to be prodded to keep up the pace. I can adapt to about anything, and consider my rides with them to be base miles.
This actually makes for a constant group. We've worked out what works for road riding. My wife does well up front where she doesn't need to worry about anyone else too much, which is Ok cause she keeps a steady pace. Jason rides behind her, my daughter Sam rides third, and I stick to her where I can coach her and watch the rear.
When we're on the road we really can ride VC pretty well. We handle traffic lights in pairs, and we group tight for stop signs. Traffic lights with a left turn are a thing of beauty. I tend to brief at each stop, we are in pairs and go single file again as we turn, causing very little delay to vehicular traffic.
I try to make sure that everyone knows what's going on. I'm teaching my kids after all, and I want them to be safe. I point out things to watch for, and let them know what we are doing and why.
Most group rides aren't this tight. You ride with different people and you tend to have more of a group mentality than a unit mentality. Groups sometimes blow through signs and signals, because the guy in front did. He's afraid of looking like a geek and those behind him don't want to look like geeks either. In that way, we are our own worst enemies.
I take a lot of flack in this forum because I hold myself as a cyclist to the same standard that I hold myself to as a motorist. Either way I see people do a lot of things that compromise safety. Cyclists label motorists as careless or dangerous, but think nothing of splitting lanes or blowing stop signs. Motorists get impatient with cyclists for slowing them, when they may get the same delays from overly cautious "seasoned citizens" without batting an eye. The truth of the matter is that no matter which mode of transport we use, we'd all be better off if we used some common sense and didn't worry so much about the impression we make on morons that we fear might think less of us or be irritated when we actually stop at stop signs.
This actually makes for a constant group. We've worked out what works for road riding. My wife does well up front where she doesn't need to worry about anyone else too much, which is Ok cause she keeps a steady pace. Jason rides behind her, my daughter Sam rides third, and I stick to her where I can coach her and watch the rear.
When we're on the road we really can ride VC pretty well. We handle traffic lights in pairs, and we group tight for stop signs. Traffic lights with a left turn are a thing of beauty. I tend to brief at each stop, we are in pairs and go single file again as we turn, causing very little delay to vehicular traffic.
I try to make sure that everyone knows what's going on. I'm teaching my kids after all, and I want them to be safe. I point out things to watch for, and let them know what we are doing and why.
Most group rides aren't this tight. You ride with different people and you tend to have more of a group mentality than a unit mentality. Groups sometimes blow through signs and signals, because the guy in front did. He's afraid of looking like a geek and those behind him don't want to look like geeks either. In that way, we are our own worst enemies.
I take a lot of flack in this forum because I hold myself as a cyclist to the same standard that I hold myself to as a motorist. Either way I see people do a lot of things that compromise safety. Cyclists label motorists as careless or dangerous, but think nothing of splitting lanes or blowing stop signs. Motorists get impatient with cyclists for slowing them, when they may get the same delays from overly cautious "seasoned citizens" without batting an eye. The truth of the matter is that no matter which mode of transport we use, we'd all be better off if we used some common sense and didn't worry so much about the impression we make on morons that we fear might think less of us or be irritated when we actually stop at stop signs.
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