Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Advocacy & Safety
Reload this Page >

Bus driver loses license after road-rage incident

Notices
Advocacy & Safety Cyclists should expect and demand safe accommodation on every public road, just as do all other users. Discuss your bicycle advocacy and safety concerns here.

Bus driver loses license after road-rage incident

Old 03-19-16, 01:44 PM
  #26  
mr_bill
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 4,345
Mentioned: 33 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1991 Post(s)
Liked 499 Times in 347 Posts
Originally Posted by kickstart View Post
While the cyclist could have done things differently, and possibly avoided the situation altogether, the conditions were such that it shouldn't have mattered where he rode. Personally I would have been making more use of the bus/bike lane as it was mostly clear, but there was so little traffic it's obvious the driver was intentionally seeking a conflict.
I think its unreasonable to say the cyclist was provoking the driver, but I do wounder how much having 2 cameras did influence his decisions.
Three cameras. So, do they influence YOUR decisions? Or is it only amateurs who fall "victim" to your irrational fear?

-mr. bill
mr_bill is offline  
Old 03-19-16, 02:15 PM
  #27  
Digital_Cowboy
Senior Member
 
Digital_Cowboy's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Tampa/St. Pete, Florida
Posts: 9,352

Bikes: Specialized Hardrock Mountain (Stolen); Giant Seek 2 (Stolen); Diamondback Ascent mid 1980 - 1997

Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 62 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Originally Posted by kickstart View Post
While the cyclist could have done things differently, and possibly avoided the situation altogether, the conditions were such that it shouldn't have mattered where he rode. Personally I would have been making more use of the bus/bike lane as it was mostly clear, but there was so little traffic it's obvious the driver was intentionally seeking a conflict.
I think its unreasonable to say the cyclist was provoking the driver, but I do wounder how much having 2 cameras did influence his decisions.

What exactly do you think that the cyclist could have done differently? From what he judge who heard the case said, I gather that it is LEGAL for cyclists to operate IN the road. Another member who lives in NZ has said that what the cyclist in question did was legal and that the bus/bike lane was blocked with parked cars, which apparently is also legal. So, again, what could the cyclist have done different?

And it was three cameras not two and actually it was four but one was not working that night.

Also, I can tell you that this past Wednesday, that I wished that I had had at least one camera, as I might have been able to get the motorists license plate number.
Digital_Cowboy is offline  
Old 03-19-16, 02:48 PM
  #28  
Leisesturm
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 4,757
Mentioned: 24 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1747 Post(s)
Liked 297 Times in 216 Posts
Originally Posted by Digital_Cowboy View Post
What exactly do you think that the cyclist could have done differently? From what he judge who heard the case said, I gather that it is LEGAL for cyclists to operate IN the road. Another member who lives in NZ has said that what the cyclist in question did was legal and that the bus/bike lane was blocked with parked cars, which apparently is also legal. So, again, what could the cyclist have done different?
Well... I'm just saying... if it was me, I'd have been in the bus lane. I'd have been rocking that bus lane. There are some streets around here that have way more parked cars in them than the one in the video. I love them. Most cars won't use the far right lane because when they come to a parked car they are going to have to fight to merge left. I use what space is there between the parked cars and the lane to the left without breaking cadence. Can you say "door zone" boys and girls. Works for me. At the time of day (night) that the video was taken I'd have been all over that bus lane and the confrontation would never have happened. It's legal here to to use the traffic lane as well, and if a driver sideswipes you because they were raging they would get whats coming to them. Not enough, sadly, and that's why I choose to avoid confrontation rather than prepare for it. I'm going to get squat out of it if I am hit, camera or no camera.
Leisesturm is offline  
Old 03-19-16, 03:27 PM
  #29  
FBinNY
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: New Rochelle, NY
Posts: 35,964

Bikes: too many bikes from 1967 10s (5x2)Frejus to a Sumitomo Ti/Chorus aluminum 10s (10x2), plus one non-susp mtn bike I use as my commuter

Mentioned: 125 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4368 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 40 Times in 35 Posts
Originally Posted by Leisesturm View Post
Well... I'm just saying... if it was me, I'd have been in the bus lane. I'd have been rocking that bus lane. .....
I won't say whether I've have used the bus lane, or ridden where the cyclist was. I've done both at various times, and though I might use a bus lane when it suits me, I don't and won't feel obligated to do so.

In any case, to be clear, THIS CASE HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH THE BICYCLIST. It was about purely and simply the actions of the driver, namely the Intentional (road rage inspired?) vehicular assault. That's what drew the charge, and sentence. Police, prosecuters, and especially judges are not parents so "he started it" doesn't carry much weight.

If the bicyclist was rude, or did anything to instigate this, either intentionally or not (before the camera rolled) that's separate and distinct from what the judge punished the driver for. If he had limited himself to verbal abuse, or even pulled up front, gotten out and confronted the rider, he wouldn't have been facing the judge in the first place.
FBinNY is offline  
Old 03-19-16, 05:32 PM
  #30  
kickstart
Senior Member
 
kickstart's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Kent Wa.
Posts: 5,332

Bikes: 2005 Gazelle Golfo, 1935 Raleigh Sport, 1970 Robin Hood sport, 1974 Schwinn Continental, 1984 Ross MTB/porteur, 2013 Flying Piegon path racer, 2014 Gazelle Toer Populair T8

Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 396 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 5 Times in 4 Posts
Originally Posted by mr_bill View Post
Three cameras. So, do they influence YOUR decisions? Or is it only amateurs who fall "victim" to your irrational fear?

-mr. bill
2, 3 whatever, going by what I've seen in videos of all sorts, having a camera, or being in front of one does in fact influence peoples behavior. It's not irrational to ponder on how they might have influenced the cyclists response when he became aware of the dysfunctional driver.
Why are you so sensitive, and on the offensive about it? Guilty conscious?
kickstart is offline  
Old 03-19-16, 05:40 PM
  #31  
FBinNY
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: New Rochelle, NY
Posts: 35,964

Bikes: too many bikes from 1967 10s (5x2)Frejus to a Sumitomo Ti/Chorus aluminum 10s (10x2), plus one non-susp mtn bike I use as my commuter

Mentioned: 125 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4368 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 40 Times in 35 Posts
Originally Posted by kickstart View Post
2, 3 whatever, going by what I've seen in videos of all sorts, having a camera, or being in front of one does in fact influence peoples behavior. ...
I don't know who's behavior you expect to change. That of drivers who maybe don't act badly on the record, or the wearer who might be emboldened knowing that he's recording anything someone else might do to him?

IME - people are who they are and do what they do, tape or no tape. I believe it's especially true of asses with cameras, who were probably the same asses long before they got a camera. In short, cameras don't affect their users as much as reflect their dispositions.
FBinNY is offline  
Old 03-19-16, 05:43 PM
  #32  
kickstart
Senior Member
 
kickstart's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Kent Wa.
Posts: 5,332

Bikes: 2005 Gazelle Golfo, 1935 Raleigh Sport, 1970 Robin Hood sport, 1974 Schwinn Continental, 1984 Ross MTB/porteur, 2013 Flying Piegon path racer, 2014 Gazelle Toer Populair T8

Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 396 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 5 Times in 4 Posts
Originally Posted by Digital_Cowboy View Post
What exactly do you think that the cyclist could have done differently?
Sometimes when I get a feeling about a driver, and I've got room to spare, I'll give them a wide berth, and as mentioned, I most likely would have been further right when riding similar conditions.

I'm not seeking vicarious righteous indignation, I'm just trying to learn from others incidents, so I can be better prepared, or possibly avoid them myself.
kickstart is offline  
Old 03-19-16, 05:49 PM
  #33  
kickstart
Senior Member
 
kickstart's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Kent Wa.
Posts: 5,332

Bikes: 2005 Gazelle Golfo, 1935 Raleigh Sport, 1970 Robin Hood sport, 1974 Schwinn Continental, 1984 Ross MTB/porteur, 2013 Flying Piegon path racer, 2014 Gazelle Toer Populair T8

Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 396 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 5 Times in 4 Posts
Originally Posted by FBinNY View Post
I don't know who's behavior you expect to change. That of drivers who maybe don't act badly on the record, or the wearer who might be emboldened knowing that he's recording anything someone else might do to him?

IME - people are who they are and do what they do, tape or no tape. I believe it's especially true of asses with cameras, who were probably the same asses long before they got a camera. In short, cameras don't affect their users as much as reflect their dispositions.
Or could be a combination of both, I don't know, but there's no harm in considering the possibilities, positive and negative.
Perhaps some day I'll get a camera, and will be faced with these considerations myself.
kickstart is offline  
Old 03-19-16, 05:52 PM
  #34  
FBinNY
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: New Rochelle, NY
Posts: 35,964

Bikes: too many bikes from 1967 10s (5x2)Frejus to a Sumitomo Ti/Chorus aluminum 10s (10x2), plus one non-susp mtn bike I use as my commuter

Mentioned: 125 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4368 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 40 Times in 35 Posts
Originally Posted by kickstart View Post
Or could be a combination of both, I don't know, but there's no harm in considering the possibilities, positive and negative.
Perhaps some day I'll get a camera, and will be faced with these considerations myself.
Yep, pretty soon, I'll be the only person in the USA not recording 100% of what happens around me 24/7. I guess that might possibly put me at a disadvantage.
FBinNY is offline  
Old 03-19-16, 05:57 PM
  #35  
kickstart
Senior Member
 
kickstart's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Kent Wa.
Posts: 5,332

Bikes: 2005 Gazelle Golfo, 1935 Raleigh Sport, 1970 Robin Hood sport, 1974 Schwinn Continental, 1984 Ross MTB/porteur, 2013 Flying Piegon path racer, 2014 Gazelle Toer Populair T8

Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 396 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 5 Times in 4 Posts
Originally Posted by FBinNY View Post
Yep, pretty soon, I'll be the only person in the USA not recording 100% of what happens around me 24/7. I guess that might possibly put me at a disadvantage.
I seriously doubt I'll ever be one of those people either, but I do see where action cameras can be fun to have for less dismal reasons.
kickstart is offline  
Old 03-20-16, 06:35 PM
  #36  
Digital_Cowboy
Senior Member
 
Digital_Cowboy's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Tampa/St. Pete, Florida
Posts: 9,352

Bikes: Specialized Hardrock Mountain (Stolen); Giant Seek 2 (Stolen); Diamondback Ascent mid 1980 - 1997

Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 62 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Originally Posted by Leisesturm View Post
Well... I'm just saying... if it was me, I'd have been in the bus lane. I'd have been rocking that bus lane. There are some streets around here that have way more parked cars in them than the one in the video. I love them. Most cars won't use the far right lane because when they come to a parked car they are going to have to fight to merge left. I use what space is there between the parked cars and the lane to the left without breaking cadence. Can you say "door zone" boys and girls. Works for me. At the time of day (night) that the video was taken I'd have been all over that bus lane and the confrontation would never have happened. It's legal here to to use the traffic lane as well, and if a driver sideswipes you because they were raging they would get whats coming to them. Not enough, sadly, and that's why I choose to avoid confrontation rather than prepare for it. I'm going to get squat out of it if I am hit, camera or no camera.
So is it safe to presume that you take the view as John Forester has said numerous times of cyclist inferiority, i.e. because we're not operating an automobile so that we for whatever reason do not have the same right to be on the road with them. It is high time that that way of thinking changed. We have just as much right to use the road as any motorist.

Hell, in what might be a rare occurrence even the judge who heard the case agreed that the cyclist did NOT do anything wrong nor was he "required" as the now former bus driver thought or you to use the bus/bike lane. And the last time that I checked steering wheels are capable of turning both to the right and the left to avoid obstacles in their path. And if they fly into a fit of rage every time that see someone in front of them who is on a bicycle well I think that it is safe to say that they probably shouldn't be driving a car in the first place.

And I could be mistaken, but I don't think that his having multiple cameras running at the time of the incident had any bearing on his actions that night. It did however provide evidence that contradicted the sworn statement of the now former bus driver. And trust me this past Wednesday night I wished that I had had a camera. And IF I am not mistaken we've heard from members here who have said the presence of their cameras had kept things from escalating.
Digital_Cowboy is offline  
Old 03-20-16, 07:05 PM
  #37  
Digital_Cowboy
Senior Member
 
Digital_Cowboy's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Tampa/St. Pete, Florida
Posts: 9,352

Bikes: Specialized Hardrock Mountain (Stolen); Giant Seek 2 (Stolen); Diamondback Ascent mid 1980 - 1997

Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 62 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Originally Posted by FBinNY View Post
I won't say whether I've have used the bus lane, or ridden where the cyclist was. I've done both at various times, and though I might use a bus lane when it suits me, I don't and won't feel obligated to do so.
Exactly, we should NEVER be made to feel that we "have" to use a bus/bike lane. It should be up to us to decide if that is the best place for us to be or not.

Originally Posted by FBinNY View Post
In any case, to be clear, THIS CASE HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH THE BICYCLIST. It was about purely and simply the actions of the driver, namely the Intentional (road rage inspired?) vehicular assault. That's what drew the charge, and sentence. Police, prosecutors, and especially judges are not parents so "he started it" doesn't carry much weight.
Agreed, especially considering that the now former bus driver had inadvertently implicated himself in a prior incidence of road rage directed at a cyclist. Which I think begs the question of how many other cyclists had he done that to and gotten away with it?

Originally Posted by FBinNY View Post
If the bicyclist was rude, or did anything to instigate this, either intentionally or not (before the camera rolled) that's separate and distinct from what the judge punished the driver for. If he had limited himself to verbal abuse, or even pulled up front, gotten out and confronted the rider, he wouldn't have been facing the judge in the first place.
Do we really know that for sure? I don't know what NZ law is in that regard, but haven't there been states that have passed laws against harassing cyclists?

Originally Posted by kickstart View Post
2, 3 whatever, going by what I've seen in videos of all sorts, having a camera, or being in front of one does in fact influence peoples behavior. It's not irrational to ponder on how they might have influenced the cyclists response when he became aware of the dysfunctional driver.
Why are you so sensitive, and on the offensive about it? Guilty conscious?
Yes, it does to a degree, but by the same token there are way TOO many people out there who do NOT give a damn if they're on camera or not, they're going to do whatever they want to do. And again, this past Wednesday I sure do wish that I had had a camera on my ride. As IF I did I might have been able to at least get the plate number of the arsehole who pulled RIGHT up behind me WITHOUT their lights on.
Digital_Cowboy is offline  
Old 03-20-16, 07:16 PM
  #38  
Digital_Cowboy
Senior Member
 
Digital_Cowboy's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Tampa/St. Pete, Florida
Posts: 9,352

Bikes: Specialized Hardrock Mountain (Stolen); Giant Seek 2 (Stolen); Diamondback Ascent mid 1980 - 1997

Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 62 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Originally Posted by kickstart View Post
Sometimes when I get a feeling about a driver, and I've got room to spare, I'll give them a wide berth, and as mentioned, I most likely would have been further right when riding similar conditions.

I'm not seeking vicarious righteous indignation, I'm just trying to learn from others incidents, so I can be better prepared, or possibly avoid them myself.
And that is exactly WHAT I did this past Wednesday. I was out minding my own business returning home from an enjoyable ride downtown. Gave a friendly wave to a person I thought had given me a friendly double tap on their horn. The next thing that I know they are literally on my rear wheel with their lights turned OFF. This is NOT a road that while lit is what anyone would call "well" lit. My familiarity with the road in question and knowing where I was allowed me to escape from them. As I am pretty sure given that they continued up the road without their lights on as well as turning around and coming back down the road again without their lights on. That they did NOT have my best interests at heart.

Originally Posted by kickstart View Post
Or could be a combination of both, I don't know, but there's no harm in considering the possibilities, positive and negative.
Perhaps some day I'll get a camera, and will be faced with these considerations myself.
As I've already said, I sure as hell wish that I had had a camera this past Wednesday night, and no it would NOT have changed my behavior that night. And sadly, there are plenty of arseholes out there who no matter how many cameras are on them are going to continue to be arseholes.
Digital_Cowboy is offline  
Old 03-20-16, 09:22 PM
  #39  
kickstart
Senior Member
 
kickstart's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Kent Wa.
Posts: 5,332

Bikes: 2005 Gazelle Golfo, 1935 Raleigh Sport, 1970 Robin Hood sport, 1974 Schwinn Continental, 1984 Ross MTB/porteur, 2013 Flying Piegon path racer, 2014 Gazelle Toer Populair T8

Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 396 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 5 Times in 4 Posts
Originally Posted by Digital_Cowboy View Post
And that is exactly WHAT I did this past Wednesday. I was out minding my own business returning home from an enjoyable ride downtown. Gave a friendly wave to a person I thought had given me a friendly double tap on their horn. The next thing that I know they are literally on my rear wheel with their lights turned OFF. This is NOT a road that while lit is what anyone would call "well" lit. My familiarity with the road in question and knowing where I was allowed me to escape from them. As I am pretty sure given that they continued up the road without their lights on as well as turning around and coming back down the road again without their lights on. That they did NOT have my best interests at heart.



As I've already said, I sure as hell wish that I had had a camera this past Wednesday night, and no it would NOT have changed my behavior that night. And sadly, there are plenty of arseholes out there who no matter how many cameras are on them are going to continue to be arseholes.
Ok, and we also know that being behind the wheel, having a camera, carrying a weapon, or being part of a group can embolden people, and influence their actions, its a proven fact. Awareness, and observation helps us not be "that guy".
kickstart is offline  
Old 03-21-16, 09:36 AM
  #40  
Digital_Cowboy
Senior Member
 
Digital_Cowboy's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Tampa/St. Pete, Florida
Posts: 9,352

Bikes: Specialized Hardrock Mountain (Stolen); Giant Seek 2 (Stolen); Diamondback Ascent mid 1980 - 1997

Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 62 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Originally Posted by kickstart View Post
Ok, and we also know that being behind the wheel, having a camera, carrying a weapon, or being part of a group can embolden people, and influence their actions, its a proven fact. Awareness, and observation helps us not be "that guy".
I carry a weapon pretty much everywhere I go, i.e. a knife clipped to my belt. This is the only time that I've been out in public with it that I felt the need to move it from my belt to my hand it does not influence my actions. And I know exactly what you are talking about in regards to how being part of a group can embolden people to do things that they'd probably wouldn't do on their own. As I used to ride with a group that behaved that way and it's part of the reason that I no longer ride with them.
Digital_Cowboy is offline  
Old 03-21-16, 11:47 AM
  #41  
Leisesturm
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 4,757
Mentioned: 24 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1747 Post(s)
Liked 297 Times in 216 Posts
Originally Posted by Digital_Cowboy View Post
So is it safe to presume that you take the view as John Forester has said numerous times of cyclist inferiority, i.e. because we're not operating an automobile so that we for whatever reason do not have the same right to be on the road with them. It is high time that that way of thinking changed. We have just as much right to use the road as any motorist.
I do not know in what context Forresters opinions were made known. Context matters. America is a strange place and its legal precepts and statutes are full of loopholes and favoritism. I wouldn't interpret any judges decision as indicative of anything. I didn't say all cyclists should be in the bus lane, I said that "I would have been in that bus lane". And I would have. I would make better time in the bus lane, even with the parked cars than another cyclist using the vehicle lane. To me it wouldn't be a surrender, it would be an advantage! I see everyday, cyclists exercising their "right" to be vehicles, and I laugh, because I choose to exercise my right to be an innovative exploiter of my advantages of small size and width and use all available avenues for forward progress. FWIW.
Leisesturm is offline  
Old 03-21-16, 12:26 PM
  #42  
JoeyBike
20+mph Commuter
 
JoeyBike's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: New Orleans, LA USA
Posts: 7,012

Bikes: Surly LHT, a folding bike, and a beater.

Mentioned: 31 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1150 Post(s)
Liked 84 Times in 55 Posts
All that horsepower and the motorist can't just go around? Maybe he was a trolley driver and not a bus driver - not used to being able to change lanes at will.
JoeyBike is offline  
Old 03-21-16, 12:55 PM
  #43  
FBinNY
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: New Rochelle, NY
Posts: 35,964

Bikes: too many bikes from 1967 10s (5x2)Frejus to a Sumitomo Ti/Chorus aluminum 10s (10x2), plus one non-susp mtn bike I use as my commuter

Mentioned: 125 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4368 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 40 Times in 35 Posts
Originally Posted by Leisesturm View Post
I do not know in what context Forresters opinions were made known. Context matters. America is a strange place and its legal precepts and statutes are full of loopholes and favoritism......
I have near zero patience with Forrester's premise that Bicycles were somehow placed at a unique disadvantage by most AFRAP laws. They are consistent with long established slow moving vehicles keep right rules, so not a real change. In fact, bicycles were actually favored a bit, since larger slow moving vehicles (in some/most? states) must move right and stop if necessary to clear backed up traffic, and bicycles are exempt from that clause.

By the same token, I have little patience for the "oh, the law and law enforcement hate me because I'm a bicyclist" sentiment I hear expressed so often these days.

On the flip side, I have equally little patience for some of the cyclist's rights arguments I hear, and likewise for any argument for a single way to ride a bicycle.

Bicycling safely isn't a matter of laws as much as it is a matter of using common sense and reason. The ASFRAP laws give cyclists some discretion, and what's practical or safe depends on conditions.

Roads are a shared resource with room for everybody if the players understands the concept of sharing. That means cyclists have equal rights, and can ride where they feel is reasonable, yet can move right where possible to create passing opportunities for delayed motorists. Motorists, likewise can spare a few seconds to wait for an opportunity to pass safely with a full or partial lane change as circumstances dictate.

Of course, not everybody will play nicely, and I have no illusions, but my extensive experience is that the vast majority of motorists are pretty OK. The jerks are a minority, and I suspect an equal percentage among bicyclists as motorists. IMO we need to chill out a bit, ride both safely and courteously, using our judgement to adapt to conditions --- and the LAW be dammed.

FWIW - the one and only instance where I was called on by cop to explain why I was in violation of ASFRAP, ended summarily when his sergeant pulled up, asked what was up, and decided the issue by looking at the pavement condition and asking his officer "where the **** do you expect him to ride?"

As I posted earlier, regardless of whether the rider had other options and even if the road were crowded limiting the driver's options, there was no justification for what was essentially an unprovoked assault, and it's the assault that this case was about.

Last edited by FBinNY; 03-21-16 at 01:45 PM.
FBinNY is offline  
Old 03-21-16, 01:27 PM
  #44  
kickstart
Senior Member
 
kickstart's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Kent Wa.
Posts: 5,332

Bikes: 2005 Gazelle Golfo, 1935 Raleigh Sport, 1970 Robin Hood sport, 1974 Schwinn Continental, 1984 Ross MTB/porteur, 2013 Flying Piegon path racer, 2014 Gazelle Toer Populair T8

Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 396 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 5 Times in 4 Posts
Originally Posted by FBinNY View Post
I have near zero patience with Forrester's premise that Bicycles were somehow placed at a unique disadvantage by most ASFRAP laws. They are consistent with long established slow moving vehicles keep right rules, so not a real change. In fact, bicycles were actually favored a bit, since larger slow moving vehicles (in some/most? states) must move right and stop if necessary to clear backed up traffic, and bicycles are exempt from that clause.

By the same token, I have little patience for the "oh, the law and law enforcement hate me because I'm a bicyclist" sentiment I hear expressed so often these days.

On the flip side, I have equally little patience for some of the cyclist's rights arguments I hear, and likewise for any argument for a single way to ride a bicycle.

Bicycling safely isn't a matter of laws as much as it is a matter of using common sense and reason. The ASFRAP laws give cyclists some discretion, and what's practical or safe depends on conditions.

Roads are a shared resource with room for everybody if the players understands the concept of sharing. That means cyclists have equal rights, and can ride where they feel is reasonable, yet can move right where possible to create passing opportunities for delayed motorists. Motorists, likewise can spare a few seconds to wait for an opportunity to pass safely with a full or partial lane change as circumstances dictate.

Of course, not everybody will play nicely, and I have no illusions, but my extensive experience is that the vast majority of motorists are pretty OK. The jerks are a minority, and I suspect an equal percentage among bicyclists as motorists. IMO we need to chill out a bit, ride both safely and courteously, using our judgement to adapt to conditions --- and the LAW be dammed.

FWIW - the one and only instance where I was called on by cop to explain why I was in violation of ASFRAP, ended summarily when his sergeant pulled up, asked what was up, and decided the issue by looking at the pavement condition and asking his officer "where the **** do you expect him to ride?"

As I posted earlier, regardless of whether the rider had other options and even if the road were crowded limiting the driver's options, there was no justification for what was essentially an unprovoked assault, and it's the assault that this case was about.
Well said.

It's just riding a bicycle, give a little, take a little.
kickstart is offline  
Old 03-21-16, 01:33 PM
  #45  
howsteepisit
Senior Member
 
howsteepisit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Eugene, OR
Posts: 4,305

Bikes: Mecian

Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 500 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by FBinNY View Post
I have near zero patience with Forrester's premise that Bicycles were somehow placed at a unique disadvantage by most ASFRAP laws. They are consistent with long established slow moving vehicles keep right rules, so not a real change. In fact, bicycles were actually favored a bit, since larger slow moving vehicles (in some/most? states) must move right and stop if necessary to clear backed up traffic, and bicycles are exempt from that clause.

By the same token, I have little patience for the "oh, the law and law enforcement hate me because I'm a bicyclist" sentiment I hear expressed so often these days.

On the flip side, I have equally little patience for some of the cyclist's rights arguments I hear, and likewise for any argument for a single way to ride a bicycle.

Bicycling safely isn't a matter of laws as much as it is a matter of using common sense and reason. The ASFRAP laws give cyclists some discretion, and what's practical or safe depends on conditions.

Roads are a shared resource with room for everybody if the players understands the concept of sharing. That means cyclists have equal rights, and can ride where they feel is reasonable, yet can move right where possible to create passing opportunities for delayed motorists. Motorists, likewise can spare a few seconds to wait for an opportunity to pass safely with a full or partial lane change as circumstances dictate.

Of course, not everybody will play nicely, and I have no illusions, but my extensive experience is that the vast majority of motorists are pretty OK. The jerks are a minority, and I suspect an equal percentage among bicyclists as motorists. IMO we need to chill out a bit, ride both safely and courteously, using our judgement to adapt to conditions --- and the LAW be dammed.

FWIW - the one and only instance where I was called on by cop to explain why I was in violation of ASFRAP, ended summarily when his sergeant pulled up, asked what was up, and decided the issue by looking at the pavement condition and asking his officer "where the **** do you expect him to ride?"

As I posted earlier, regardless of whether the rider had other options and even if the road were crowded limiting the driver's options, there was no justification for what was essentially an unprovoked assault, and it's the assault that this case was about.
Exceptionally well said. A vote for reasonableness is great to see here.
howsteepisit is offline  
Old 03-21-16, 02:43 PM
  #46  
Digital_Cowboy
Senior Member
 
Digital_Cowboy's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Tampa/St. Pete, Florida
Posts: 9,352

Bikes: Specialized Hardrock Mountain (Stolen); Giant Seek 2 (Stolen); Diamondback Ascent mid 1980 - 1997

Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 62 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Originally Posted by Leisesturm View Post
I do not know in what context Forresters opinions were made known. Context matters. America is a strange place and its legal precepts and statutes are full of loopholes and favoritism. I wouldn't interpret any judges decision as indicative of anything. I didn't say all cyclists should be in the bus lane, I said that "I would have been in that bus lane". And I would have. I would make better time in the bus lane, even with the parked cars than another cyclist using the vehicle lane. To me it wouldn't be a surrender, it would be an advantage! I see everyday, cyclists exercising their "right" to be vehicles, and I laugh, because I choose to exercise my right to be an innovative exploiter of my advantages of small size and width and use all available avenues for forward progress. FWIW.
You do get that the roads are safest for EVERYBODY when EVERYBODY operates in a safe and PREDICTABLE manner, right? And that "popping in and out" from between parked cars that you are NOT acting in a predictable manner. And that if anything that you'd be more not less likely to draw the attention of any LEO in the area who's going to rightfully wonder why you are behaving in the manner that you are.
Digital_Cowboy is offline  
Old 03-21-16, 02:50 PM
  #47  
Digital_Cowboy
Senior Member
 
Digital_Cowboy's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Tampa/St. Pete, Florida
Posts: 9,352

Bikes: Specialized Hardrock Mountain (Stolen); Giant Seek 2 (Stolen); Diamondback Ascent mid 1980 - 1997

Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 62 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Originally Posted by JoeyBike View Post
All that horsepower and the motorist can't just go around? Maybe he was a trolley driver and not a bus driver - not used to being able to change lanes at will.
Damn, this is getting to be a habit Joey.

Originally Posted by FBinNY View Post
I have near zero patience with Forrester's premise that Bicycles were somehow placed at a unique disadvantage by most AFRAP laws. They are consistent with long established slow moving vehicles keep right rules, so not a real change. In fact, bicycles were actually favored a bit, since larger slow moving vehicles (in some/most? states) must move right and stop if necessary to clear backed up traffic, and bicycles are exempt from that clause.

By the same token, I have little patience for the "oh, the law and law enforcement hate me because I'm a bicyclist" sentiment I hear expressed so often these days.

On the flip side, I have equally little patience for some of the cyclist's rights arguments I hear, and likewise for any argument for a single way to ride a bicycle.

Bicycling safely isn't a matter of laws as much as it is a matter of using common sense and reason. The ASFRAP laws give cyclists some discretion, and what's practical or safe depends on conditions.

Roads are a shared resource with room for everybody if the players understands the concept of sharing. That means cyclists have equal rights, and can ride where they feel is reasonable, yet can move right where possible to create passing opportunities for delayed motorists. Motorists, likewise can spare a few seconds to wait for an opportunity to pass safely with a full or partial lane change as circumstances dictate.

Of course, not everybody will play nicely, and I have no illusions, but my extensive experience is that the vast majority of motorists are pretty OK. The jerks are a minority, and I suspect an equal percentage among bicyclists as motorists. IMO we need to chill out a bit, ride both safely and courteously, using our judgement to adapt to conditions --- and the LAW be dammed.

FWIW - the one and only instance where I was called on by cop to explain why I was in violation of ASFRAP, ended summarily when his sergeant pulled up, asked what was up, and decided the issue by looking at the pavement condition and asking his officer "where the **** do you expect him to ride?"

As I posted earlier, regardless of whether the rider had other options and even if the road were crowded limiting the driver's options, there was no justification for what was essentially an unprovoked assault, and it's the assault that this case was about.
I'm no fan of Forester either. But on the last two encounters I'd had with LEOs who didn't know the law I was on a multi-lane road in the right most lane and any traffic could have moved into the left lane to safely pass me.

And on a multi-lane road how much more to the right should we be required to operate? Apparently to the first cop that had gotten on their PA system I either should have been hugging the curb/gutter pan or up on the sidewalk. The second one had so many points of the law wrong that he probably should go back to the academy.
Digital_Cowboy is offline  
Old 03-21-16, 03:57 PM
  #48  
Leisesturm
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 4,757
Mentioned: 24 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1747 Post(s)
Liked 297 Times in 216 Posts
Originally Posted by Digital_Cowboy View Post
You do get that the roads are safest for EVERYBODY when EVERYBODY operates in a safe and PREDICTABLE manner, right? And that "popping in and out" from between parked cars that you are NOT acting in a predictable manner. And that if anything that you'd be more not less likely to draw the attention of any LEO in the area who's going to rightfully wonder why you are behaving in the manner that you are.
What "popping in and out"? I never said I do that. I ride to the left the lane. Most parked cars go out of their way to not be brushed by the mirrors or wide trailers of passing traffic. Some go as far as to put a pair of wheels up on the sidewalk in order to get even further to the right than the curb allows. There is plenty of room to pass them without "popping" into the traffic lane and back again.

But, my point is, and remains, that it was the lane center placement of the bicycle in the travel lane that elicited outrage. I'm not going to argue this. There wasn't any need for it, especially as there was a mostly clear bus lane alongside. Being FRAP in the travel lane would not have been any great inconvenience. As was said, the driver was punished because his behavior was beyond the pale.

My father was once involved in a fender bender with a pretty young woman. My father was right, the woman was wrong, the cop admitted it. Told the woman she was wrong, but told my father in front of her that he didn't like my fathers attitude. The cop threw the book at my dad, wrote him a couple of tickets, and in general humiliated him in front of the woman. To cap off the performance, he let her go, scot free without providing any contact information. Maybe the officer called her up later for a date, maybe he didn't, but just because things work out for someone in connection with LEO proceedings, or even court proceedings, I don't automatically accept as proof of innocence or even of wrongdoing.
Leisesturm is offline  
Old 03-21-16, 06:16 PM
  #49  
kickstart
Senior Member
 
kickstart's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Kent Wa.
Posts: 5,332

Bikes: 2005 Gazelle Golfo, 1935 Raleigh Sport, 1970 Robin Hood sport, 1974 Schwinn Continental, 1984 Ross MTB/porteur, 2013 Flying Piegon path racer, 2014 Gazelle Toer Populair T8

Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 396 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 5 Times in 4 Posts
Originally Posted by Digital_Cowboy View Post
You do get that the roads are safest for EVERYBODY when EVERYBODY operates in a safe and PREDICTABLE manner, right? And that "popping in and out" from between parked cars that you are NOT acting in a predictable manner. And that if anything that you'd be more not less likely to draw the attention of any LEO in the area who's going to rightfully wonder why you are behaving in the manner that you are.
It's only "popping in and out" if one chooses to do it in that manner, rather than in a smooth, well controlled manner with signaling if appropriate.
kickstart is offline  
Old 03-22-16, 05:56 AM
  #50  
smasha
Vegan on a bicycle
Thread Starter
 
smasha's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: wellington NZ (via NJ & NC)
Posts: 1,042
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7 Post(s)
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
Originally Posted by Digital_Cowboy View Post
Do you know if the court had ordered him to undergo some sort of anger management classes? As it really sounds like this guy has an anger issue. And it may have only been a mater of time before he went off on someone on his bus.
I'm not aware of any conditions set by the court. If it were up to me, I'd make reinstating his license conditional on:
  • Anger management
  • Passing a fresh driving test
  • Successfully completing an on-road bike-safety training course

Originally Posted by Digital_Cowboy View Post
I wonder what other career field he is considering going into. Whatever it is, I think that given the publicity that this case has hopefully received that he's probably going to find it difficult to find a job just about anywhere. As who is going to want this "hothead" on their payroll?
These days, I'd imagine that any potential employer runs at least a basic google-search before hiring anyone. This guy seems to have screwed himself by demonstrating that he's too much of a liability to hire, especially in any position that has contact with the public. But before his application even gets that far, a potential employer will review his application and notice that yes, he has been convicted of a crime. I'm told that "dangerous driving" in NZ crosses the line from "just" a traffic infringement to being a criminal conviction. Under statute, he could've spent three months in jail.
smasha is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information -

Copyright 2021 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.