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Even with Sharrows, cops remain ignorant on use of the full lane

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Even with Sharrows, cops remain ignorant on use of the full lane

Old 03-21-16, 02:08 PM
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Originally Posted by CB HI
No court as the cop did not issue a ticket. The cop lied and used the claim of issuing a ticket simply to get the cyclist drivers license to illegally ID him. By that point the cop had already figured out that he was clueless and would look stupid in court if he actually issued a ticket.
OH COME ON...

At my age I can't roll my eyes very well so it's a good thing emojis are free here as Medicare doesn't cover them.

I don't care what you did or didn't do, the police always ask for ID if they don't know you, and even if they do they have the right to check if you have outstanding charges.

That's standard operating procedure. There is no violation of anything...please refrain from the 'pig paranoia'.
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Old 03-21-16, 02:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Moe Zhoost
Cop did not seem to be a "know it all" and appeared to understand that the difference of opinion was based on how the laws should be interpreted. I don't agree with his suggestion to weave in and out of parked cars. I do understand his concern about impeding traffic; however it did not appear to be happening in the video. Anyhow, the demeanor of the cop made me feel that he would do some homework to understand what the cyclist was presenting.

I bet that if the cyclist were weaving in and out of the parked cars (to stay AFRAP) he would have been pulled over for erratic riding.
No, he didn't but he sure appeared to have a hard time grasping what the cyclist was telling him as to what was the safest option for a cyclist.

I think that that is a given.

Originally Posted by genec
Oh wow, SDPD... on Park Boulevard near the zoo. The cop is clearly wrong. Doesn't have a clue, is of the "old school" era. There is plenty of room for motorists to pass in the other lane. This BTW was very very typical of the type of roads and traffic (with those same type of parked cars along the side) that I typically faced on my daily commute... with speed limits up to 45MPH. There is no other place to safely ride on the road.

Ironically, I suspect that a couple of cars passing in the background are speeding... but of course Obie doesn't see that... he's busy trying to learn bike law.

What the cop really fails on is the obstructing traffic aspect... there is no way to obstruct traffic on a multilane roads.

Now the cyclist... well, somewhat full of himself... do we really have to ride with camera and cite law to be able to ride on the streets?

And the cop goes into "minimum speed" aspect... sorry, no minimum speed there unless it is posted.

Yup, time for some LEOs to attend at least a 1-2 hour basic bike law seminar. Just so they know "something."
Actually, if I am not mistaken with the exception of the interstate system there is no minimal speed. The posted speed limit is the maximum that one may travel under ideal conditions. Considering that the conditions are very rarely, if ever "ideal" doesn't that mean that the average motorist should be traveling at a much slower speed then they currently do?

Thank you, plus if I am not mistaken, and I'm pretty sure that Florida's impeding traffic law clearly states MOTOR vehicle, most state laws regarding impeding traffic are worded so that technically they only apply to motor vehicles and not non-motorized traffic.

I mean if I am not mistaken, if a motorist is traveling at the "posted speed limit" and it's raining out and they get into a crash. That they can STILL be cited for speeding.

Originally Posted by genec
What would it take to make some decent commercial PSAs... why can't some bike organization in conjunction with some auto companies, put together some education vids for TV... put their damn names on em... let em be sponsored, but dammit, educate folks.
I'd like to know, I'd like to get LAB, the Cycling Savvy people, and local and state bicycle organizations involved in this.

Originally Posted by Chris0516
That cop is dedicated, not to the SDPD. But dedicated to his ignorance of the traffic code as it applies to cyclists'.
That could be, given his apparent ignorance as to what sharrows mean.

Originally Posted by dynodonn
Wow, even our local LEOs are better versed than this. This LEO must need to clean his sunglasses, because he sure missed the sharrow markings in the MIDDLE of the one lane.
Maybe no one has educated them as to what they mean. How long have they been on this road?
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Old 03-21-16, 02:31 PM
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I keep hearing two things, either sharrows mean something or they are an OPTION, a suggestion.

I think the autocensor should automatically strike all forms of 'take the lane' and notify staff.

That and are cops corrupt/ignorant/incompetent are the 'abortion/religion' topics of A&S, forget about helmets.

Why are these topics relentlessly pursued like flushing a covey of quail?

There is no point. Few of them remain objective. It's an insult to intelligence sometimes. or else a big sarcastic joke.

Clean it up, folks.
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Old 03-21-16, 06:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Rollfast
OH COME ON...

At my age I can't roll my eyes very well so it's a good thing emojis are free here as Medicare doesn't cover them.

I don't care what you did or didn't do, the police always ask for ID if they don't know you, and even if they do they have the right to check if you have outstanding charges.
That's standard operating procedure. There is no violation of anything...please refrain from the 'pig paranoia'.
OH COME ON...

Are you really so far behind on your continuing education, that you do not know that under current Supreme Court case law, no one who has not committed a crime or reasonably suspected of committing a crime or about to commit a crime (Terry Stop Case law - Terry vs Ohio) must show an ID card or even verbally state name and birth date to the cops.

It is routine for cops to ask for ID to try to get people like you who do not know their constitutional rights to incriminate themselves.
Originally Posted by Rollfast
I don't care what you did or didn't do, the police always ask for ID if they don't know you, and even if they do they have the right to check if you have outstanding charges.

That's standard operating procedure. There is no violation of anything...please refrain from the 'pig paranoia'.
You are flat out wrong here. They never have the right to ID you without a reasonable suspicion on a legal terry stop or with probable cause for an arrest. Your should refrain from your blind cop support.

Some of these videos may help you educate yourself. https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=ID+refusal
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Old 03-21-16, 06:44 PM
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Originally Posted by genec
Don't forget, you have to educate all the motorists too...
I think that option went out the window when many states, including yours and mine, stopped retesting motorists when they renew their licenses. The last time California was testing its motorists at renewal, the majority failed the knowledge test on the first try, and nearly half failed on their second. The first-time test takers did a bit better, if that's any comfort.

However, if the cops knew the law and would enforce it, the citations they hand out could be thought of as an education for motorists.
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Old 03-21-16, 07:09 PM
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I tend to think the police try to inform and teach cyclists more than ticket them, at least the ones I know. I don't see how punitive measures are really a 'lesson'. You have a rather harsh attitude to this.

Reinforcement of positive values is not achieved well by punitive acts. If someone is just flat out blatant and uncaring about it, perhaps then.

You are supposed to be an advocate of a lifestyle without cars and then you are consistently down on cyclists as well. You also live right next to a huge freeway arterial.

I live next to I-84 myself and I had some time in Salem and Portland, drove through Portland during rush hour 14 years ago...it's downright scary if you think the car is going to break down and you don't know which exit is a good one.

But the impression I can get from you is that I don't think you are for anybody. That's just strange. I just get a little unnerved by that sometimes. Explain that for me.
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Old 03-21-16, 07:31 PM
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Originally Posted by CB HI
OH COME ON...

Are you really so far behind on your continuing education, that you do not know that under current Supreme Court case law, no one who has not committed a crime or reasonably suspected of committing a crime or about to commit a crime (Terry Stop Case law - Terry vs Ohio) must show an ID card or even verbally state name and birth date to the cops.

It is routine for cops to ask for ID to try to get people like you who do not know their constitutional rights to incriminate themselves.
You are flat out wrong here. They never have the right to ID you without a reasonable suspicion on a legal terry stop or with probable cause for an arrest. Your should refrain from your blind cop support.

Some of these videos may help you educate yourself. https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=ID+refusal
I do NOT blindly support cops or whatever. You are pulled over. They have to right to identify you. You right the right to refuse but they still have to ID you, and it places you under further suspicion. It's in your interest to get that suspicion dismissed and go about your business.

This paranoia you seem to have is disconcerting to say the least. I can't understand that at all, and I don't get you thinking I'm a na´ve hick about it. If you have noting to fear, cooperate and get the stop over. Cops are the same human beings as you are. They are there to help maintain the peace and order of their town. Judges decide if they implemented their enforcement correctly. I believe that this forum has a terrible persecution complex that keeps it negative.

WHY?

When did this become CYCLE LIVES MATTER instead of Advocacy and Safety? We are supposed to exist to promote the co-existence of all transportation modes, not bike Nazis. Please. Get it together.
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Old 03-21-16, 07:34 PM
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I love riding my bikes. This stuff really gets to me.
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Old 03-21-16, 08:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Rollfast
I love riding my bikes. This stuff really gets to me.
Me too,

If you'r riding angry, and paranoid, you're doing it wrong.
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Old 03-21-16, 08:27 PM
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I don't care whether sense is actually common or not, use it and stop spouting laws and court cases and what is LEGAL or not. Be a CITIZEN, not a victim.
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Old 03-21-16, 09:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Rollfast
You are pulled over. They have to right to identify you. You right the right to refuse but they still have to ID you, and it places you under further suspicion. It's in your interest to get that suspicion dismissed and go about your business.
You are wrong. You are only required to show an ID card when driving are there is a legal terry stop or arrest. Any other legal terry stop or arrest, you are only required to verbally state your name and birth date. Any illegal terry stop or arrest, you are not required to ID at all.

Cops all to often violate the law, lie to us, give citizens illegal orders and refuse to uphold our constitutional rights even when a citizen cooperates. Cops even commit murder.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mRos5KyIpkc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1sy3iYpErSU

A police officer lives next door to me. Three members of his watch squad were arrested by the FBI and are in Federal prison for alerting drugs dealers of upcoming FBI warrant searches. Evidence of the entire watch team providing protection to the drug dealers and security at illegal cock (chicken) fights was turned over by the FBI to internal affairs for local prosecution. None of those cops were prosecuted.
The next door cop even hide his adult son from a felony warrant when the Sheriffs were knocking on my door asking if I saw the adult son or if I knew where the cop was hiding him.

I appreciate the 50% positive contacts with police that I have had, but the 50% negative contacts when I have broken no laws is way too high to respect and trust most cops, especially with the next door cop. I even had a lady cop threaten me and try to force me into a guard rail when cycling because I was riding downhill in the center of the narrow twisting lane at only the speed limit of 35 mph.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8GHoh7XnSDk
And this from a police Sargent.
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Old 03-21-16, 09:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Rollfast
I don't care whether sense is actually common or not, use it and stop spouting laws and court cases and what is LEGAL or not. Be a CITIZEN, not a victim.
Seems by your judgement, only the King George loyalist were good CITIZENs.
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Old 03-21-16, 10:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Rollfast
I tend to think the police try to inform and teach cyclists more than ticket them, at least the ones I know. I don't see how punitive measures are really a 'lesson'. You have a rather harsh attitude to this.

Reinforcement of positive values is not achieved well by punitive acts. If someone is just flat out blatant and uncaring about it, perhaps then.

You are supposed to be an advocate of a lifestyle without cars and then you are consistently down on cyclists as well. You also live right next to a huge freeway arterial.

I live next to I-84 myself and I had some time in Salem and Portland, drove through Portland during rush hour 14 years ago...it's downright scary if you think the car is going to break down and you don't know which exit is a good one.

But the impression I can get from you is that I don't think you are for anybody. That's just strange. I just get a little unnerved by that sometimes. Explain that for me.
If you were replying to me, you have misunderstood what I wrote in a big way. I couldn't care less about citing cyclists for vehicle code infractions; I was referring to citing motorists. Receiving a citation isn't necessarily punitive, it's instructive and the fine is the cost of that education. It's a mighty small price to pay compared to the damage to one's psyche involved in causing a fatality, or so I'm told. One can easily avoid the fine by reading and following the vehicle code. I would guess that almost all motorists know what stop signs, speed limit signs and red lights mean, so when they routinely refuse to obey them I really don't have a lot of sympathy.

If we only focus enforcement on the worst of our motorists, it won't be long before what is done only by the worst today is done by nearly all tomorrow. We've been following that approach for thirty-five years and it has been a big part of why our roads feel so unpleasant to so many cyclists, imo.

Pleasant rides to you.
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Old 03-22-16, 09:09 AM
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Originally Posted by CB HI
OH COME ON...

Are you really so far behind on your continuing education, that you do not know that under current Supreme Court case law, no one who has not committed a crime or reasonably suspected of committing a crime or about to commit a crime (Terry Stop Case law - Terry vs Ohio) must show an ID card or even verbally state name and birth date to the cops.

It is routine for cops to ask for ID to try to get people like you who do not know their constitutional rights to incriminate themselves.
You are flat out wrong here. They never have the right to ID you without a reasonable suspicion on a legal terry stop or with probable cause for an arrest. Your should refrain from your blind cop support.

Some of these videos may help you educate yourself. https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=ID+refusal
And if as the cop had said, that he was going to look up the statute himself, and ironically all he did was look up the "cheetsheet" version in his little booklet NOT the full statute. Why does he need to see the cyclists ID in the first place?

Originally Posted by Rollfast
I tend to think the police try to inform and teach cyclists more than ticket them, at least the ones I know. I don't see how punitive measures are really a 'lesson'. You have a rather harsh attitude to this.

Reinforcement of positive values is not achieved well by punitive acts. If someone is just flat out blatant and uncaring about it, perhaps then.

You are supposed to be an advocate of a lifestyle without cars and then you are consistently down on cyclists as well. You also live right next to a huge freeway arterial.

I live next to I-84 myself and I had some time in Salem and Portland, drove through Portland during rush hour 14 years ago...it's downright scary if you think the car is going to break down and you don't know which exit is a good one.

But the impression I can get from you is that I don't think you are for anybody. That's just strange. I just get a little unnerved by that sometimes. Explain that for me.
I know a gal locally who has been stopped by the police and at last count that I'm aware of was issued some 100+ citations. Now granted, even though how she operates is both safe and legal. She'll sit there on the side of the road and argue with the LEO as to why she is right and they are wrong. Which results in said LEO issuing her a citation.

As a cyclist I can honestly say that I have driven through a number of intersections that scare the bejesus(sp) out of most motorists. And I have done so by behaving in a predictable manner by signalling my intention and moving with confidence.
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Old 03-22-16, 09:15 AM
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Originally Posted by B. Carfree
I think that option went out the window when many states, including yours and mine, stopped retesting motorists when they renew their licenses. The last time California was testing its motorists at renewal, the majority failed the knowledge test on the first try, and nearly half failed on their second. The first-time test takers did a bit better, if that's any comfort.

However, if the cops knew the law and would enforce it, the citations they hand out could be thought of as an education for motorists.
No matter how you look at it... cyclists one at a time or cops one ticket at a time... that is a tough way to educate motorists. We really need some form of "continued education" for motorists... as laws change, even road markings change (sharrows for instance) and yet quite a few motorists out there learned how to drive as teens, and have had no "updates" since then. Who knows what laws they don't know, or what bad habits they have picked up from watching other motorists. For one, it always amazes me how close people drive today... as if the "3 second rule" or one car length for each 10MPH doesn't apply to them.
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Old 03-22-16, 09:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Rollfast
I do NOT blindly support cops or whatever. You are pulled over. They have to right to identify you. You right the right to refuse but they still have to ID you, and it places you under further suspicion. It's in your interest to get that suspicion dismissed and go about your business.

This paranoia you seem to have is disconcerting to say the least. I can't understand that at all, and I don't get you thinking I'm a na´ve hick about it. If you have noting to fear, cooperate and get the stop over. Cops are the same human beings as you are. They are there to help maintain the peace and order of their town. Judges decide if they implemented their enforcement correctly. I believe that this forum has a terrible persecution complex that keeps it negative.

WHY?

When did this become CYCLE LIVES MATTER instead of Advocacy and Safety? We are supposed to exist to promote the co-existence of all transportation modes, not bike Nazis. Please. Get it together.
The paranoia that you speak of comes from the first hand accounts that have been recounted here of LEOs with no more provocation of a person being a cyclist or of certain nationality so they're "free" to pull them over and ask for ID even when they haven't done anything to break the law. And sadly I've seen too many times where people have fallen for the cops line of "if you don't have anything to hide you won't mind if I search your car/home/or whatever." The constitution gives us certain rights, and one is the right from self-incrimination and the other is the right NOT to be searched when there is no basis for it. Yet, cops routinely try to get the people that they stop to either incriminate themselves or to consent to a search when they do not have PC to conduct a search in the first place.

So, even though LEOs are also human given that far too many of them will use tactics that are questionable in order to gather evidence is it any wonder that too many people have a hard time trusting them? Hell I remember a case where a young man was being questioned by the police regarding the death of his father. At some point while the young man was being questioned his father passed away from his injuries. The cops then proceeded to not only tell the young man that his father had died, but that with his dying breath that his father had said that he had killed him.

Sadly there are far too many cases where that has happened.
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Old 03-22-16, 09:28 AM
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Originally Posted by CB HI
You are wrong. You are only required to show an ID card when driving are there is a legal terry stop or arrest. Any other legal terry stop or arrest, you are only required to verbally state your name and birth date. Any illegal terry stop or arrest, you are not required to ID at all.

Cops all to often violate the law, lie to us, give citizens illegal orders and refuse to uphold our constitutional rights even when a citizen cooperates. Cops even commit murder.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mRos5KyIpkc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1sy3iYpErSU

A police officer lives next door to me. Three members of his watch squad were arrested by the FBI and are in Federal prison for alerting drugs dealers of upcoming FBI warrant searches. Evidence of the entire watch team providing protection to the drug dealers and security at illegal cock (chicken) fights was turned over by the FBI to internal affairs for local prosecution. None of those cops were prosecuted.
The next door cop even hide his adult son from a felony warrant when the Sheriffs were knocking on my door asking if I saw the adult son or if I knew where the cop was hiding him.

I appreciate the 50% positive contacts with police that I have had, but the 50% negative contacts when I have broken no laws is way too high to respect and trust most cops, especially with the next door cop. I even had a lady cop threaten me and try to force me into a guard rail when cycling because I was riding downhill in the center of the narrow twisting lane at only the speed limit of 35 mph.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8GHoh7XnSDk
And this from a police Sargent.

+100

TOO many cops seem to think that because they're cops that we automatically have to do what they say, when they without question. You might recall that a few years ago that I had a St. Pete cop get on his PA system and order me to either ride further to the right IN the gutter pan/dangerously close to the curb or to get on the sidewalk.

Too many of them think that they're above the law.

As for cops committing murder, again I recall reading an article about a Texas cop who did just that. He had the "hots' for a woman with a son. The mom "dared" to turn him down. So he set out to ruin her sons life claiming that he was a gang member, a drug dealer, and some sort of arms dealer. This cop used one of his "friends" to try and set him up for an "illegal" gun sale. The son was smart enough not to touch either the gun or the money so the cop wasn't able to get him on anything.

The mom when talking to the "informant's" mom was reported as having said something to the effect that "in this town snitches don't live long." This stellar example of a cop used that to claim that the woman that he had the hots for had threatened his CI. He then late at night swore out a warrant for her arrest. And with at least two other officers went to her home to serve it. Only she ended up dead, because he'd made a beeline for her bedroom and shot her. Claiming "self-defense," he's now in a prison in Texas, still trying to claim that it was a "justified" shooting and that he did nothing wrong.
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Old 03-22-16, 09:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Digital_Cowboy
...LEOs...is it any wonder that too many people have a hard time trusting them?...
Every time I have been called in for Jury duty the judge will ask the crowd of about 200 people in the pool "Raise your hand if you would be reluctant to find someone guilty based ONLY on police testimony". EVERY hand goes up. White, black, green, purple...no matter. The cops in NOLA have made their bed for a long time. Problem with that reputation, it makes it difficult to get a conviction, the perp goes free, cops get frustrated, catch the same guy doing the same thing the very next day, and beat the snot out of him instead of hauling him in "for nothing" and wasting their time. Lather, rinse, repeat.

Good luck breaking THIS^^ cycle with politics and promises. Rioting is a waste of time. Real solutions, like EDUCATION, are slow and unexciting fixes.
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Old 03-22-16, 09:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Looigi
A bit OT, but I'm pretty much against the use off sharrows. The laws are the same regardless of whether sharrows are painted on the road or not. The presence of sharrows in some places and not in others gives the impression that that is not the case.

Evidently this is not the case for this cop, who mistakenly believes that bikes need to stay to right at all times, sharrows or not.
+1..... IMHO sharrows are not really a benefit. the majority of people do not know what they mean. Addtiionally some people seem to think they indicate lane position, where as best I can tell they are just try to tell people bikes have right to the road. I have discussed this with non cyclist as work and there is general confusion and in general "what the hell is that""
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Old 03-22-16, 10:19 AM
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Hey, nice to see a cop take the time to deal with something beside a homicide. It's hard to get out of a situation like that without feeling like someone is dicking with you. Looked like a good encounter to me.
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Old 03-25-16, 12:16 AM
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All I can say is there are plenty of houses for sale here in Ontario, Oregon. Maybe you can create some jobs and stay awhile. I plan to die here and get buried next to the mall.

Originally Posted by Digital_Cowboy
The paranoia that you speak of comes from the first hand accounts that have been recounted here of LEOs with no more provocation of a person being a cyclist or of certain nationality so they're "free" to pull them over and ask for ID even when they haven't done anything to break the law. And sadly I've seen too many times where people have fallen for the cops line of "if you don't have anything to hide you won't mind if I search your car/home/or whatever." The constitution gives us certain rights, and one is the right from self-incrimination and the other is the right NOT to be searched when there is no basis for it. Yet, cops routinely try to get the people that they stop to either incriminate themselves or to consent to a search when they do not have PC to conduct a search in the first place.

So, even though LEOs are also human given that far too many of them will use tactics that are questionable in order to gather evidence is it any wonder that too many people have a hard time trusting them? Hell I remember a case where a young man was being questioned by the police regarding the death of his father. At some point while the young man was being questioned his father passed away from his injuries. The cops then proceeded to not only tell the young man that his father had died, but that with his dying breath that his father had said that he had killed him.

Sadly there are far too many cases where that has happened.
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Old 03-25-16, 06:00 PM
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Originally Posted by genec
What would it take to make some decent commercial PSAs... why can't some bike organization in conjunction with some auto companies, put together some education vids for TV... put their damn names on em... let em be sponsored, but dammit, educate folks.
Pretty expensive, the laws vary state by state and sometimes town by town.
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Old 03-25-16, 07:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Road Fan
Pretty expensive, the laws vary state by state and sometimes town by town.
The basic rules of the road don't vary, and cyclists are entitled to the, privileges, protection, and responsibilities they grant just like other road users.
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Old 03-26-16, 01:38 AM
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Originally Posted by kickstart
The basic rules of the road don't vary, and cyclists are entitled to the, privileges, protection, and responsibilities they grant just like other road users.
Really? I would think that mandatory bike lane use is a huge variation, as well prohibition of highway and freeway use to be significant.
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Old 03-26-16, 06:22 AM
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Originally Posted by squirtdad
+1..... IMHO sharrows are not really a benefit. the majority of people do not know what they mean. Addtiionally some people seem to think they indicate lane position, where as best I can tell they are just try to tell people bikes have right to the road. I have discussed this with non cyclist as work and there is general confusion and in general "what the hell is that""
From the Wiki article.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shared_lane_marking

A shared-lane marking or sharrow[1] is a street marking installed at locations in Australia, Canada, United States or Spain. This marking is placed in the travel lane to indicate where people should preferably cycle.

According to the US Manual on Uniform Traffic Control Devices, shared-lane markings are used to:

Assist cyclists with lateral positioning in a shared lane with on-street parallel parking in order to reduce the chance of a bicyclist impacting the open door of a parked vehicle;
Assist cyclists with lateral positioning in lanes that are too narrow for a motor vehicle and a bicycle to travel side by side within the same traffic lane;
Alert motorists of the lateral location bicyclists are likely to occupy within the traveled way;
Encourage safe passing of bicyclists by motorists; and
Reduce the incidence of wrong-way bicycling.[2]
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