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Even with Sharrows, cops remain ignorant on use of the full lane

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Even with Sharrows, cops remain ignorant on use of the full lane

Old 03-26-16, 11:48 AM
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Originally Posted by CB HI
Really? I would think that mandatory bike lane use is a huge variation, as well prohibition of highway and freeway use to be significant.
Yes, there are additional laws, and rules for the different classes of road users that determine their actions under certain conditions.

It should be obvious that PSAs would only touch on some key basics in their 30 seconds, rather than attempt to recite all rules, and laws in their entirety.
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Old 03-29-16, 03:29 PM
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Originally Posted by kickstart
Yes, there are additional laws, and rules for the different classes of road users that determine their actions under certain conditions.

It should be obvious that PSAs would only touch on some key basics in their 30 seconds, rather than attempt to recite all rules, and laws in their entirety.
Maybe you forgot about the Idaho stop law. That is a variation within a single vehicle class across states and vehicle types all in one.

But you will my point unless I look up at least 100 variations for you.
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Old 03-29-16, 06:40 PM
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Originally Posted by CB HI
Maybe you forgot about the Idaho stop law. That is a variation within a single vehicle class across states and vehicle types all in one.

But you will my point unless I look up at least 100 variations for you.
I have faith in your ability to find trees to obscure the forest for the sake of argument, and promote your no-can-do defeatist outlook.

Regardless, I also have faith that thoughtful, intelligent people could come up with generic PSAs educating drivers about the right of cyclists to use the road, and their responsibility to maintain safe, lawful behavior when sharing the road with us.
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Old 03-29-16, 11:57 PM
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Originally Posted by kickstart
Me too,

If you'r riding angry, and paranoid, you're doing it wrong.
You really have a wild imagination, making this false claim about me.

Originally Posted by kickstart
The basic rules of the road don't vary, and cyclists are entitled to the, privileges, protection, and responsibilities they grant just like other road users.


Originally Posted by CB HI
Really? I would think that mandatory bike lane use is a huge variation, as well prohibition of highway and freeway use to be significant.


Originally Posted by kickstart
Yes, there are additional laws, and rules for the different classes of road users that determine their actions under certain conditions.

It should be obvious that PSAs would only touch on some key basics in their 30 seconds, rather than attempt to recite all rules, and laws in their entirety.


Originally Posted by CB HI
Maybe you forgot about the Idaho stop law. That is a variation within a single vehicle class across states and vehicle types all in one.

But you will wrongly dismiss my point unless I look up at least 100 variations for you.


Originally Posted by kickstart
I have faith in your ability to find trees to obscure the forest for the sake of argument, and promote your no-can-do defeatist outlook.

Regardless, I also have faith that thoughtful, intelligent people could come up with generic PSAs educating drivers about the right of cyclists to use the road, and their responsibility to maintain safe, lawful behavior when sharing the road with us.


So you insist on ignoring the obvious examples provided to you, just to continue attacking me.
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Last edited by CB HI; 03-30-16 at 12:04 AM.
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Old 03-30-16, 02:01 AM
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Quite honestly, I live two miles from Idaho and I wouldn't roll through there without knowing the streets well and using six senses.

Maybe in Parma, but off the main drag.
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Old 03-30-16, 09:24 AM
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Originally Posted by CB HI
So you insist on ignoring the obvious examples provided to you, just to continue attacking me.
Yes, the best thing to do is ignore you, and your excuses.
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Old 03-30-16, 11:06 AM
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Originally Posted by CB HI
Really? I would think that mandatory bike lane use is a huge variation, as well prohibition of highway and freeway use to be significant.
Not really, as mandatory BL use usually has a whole set of exceptions that the cyclist gets to decide... and really the bottom line is not to teach down to the dotted I and crossed T, but to inform as to the basics of the law, and the rights of cyclists... in what, 30 seconds or so...

Now a specific seminar for LE of a specific area might be a couple hours long and list all the local state, and city laws... but you are addressing a focused group there, not the general public.
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Old 03-30-16, 12:09 PM
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Originally Posted by genec
Not really, as mandatory BL use usually has a whole set of exceptions that the cyclist gets to decide... and really the bottom line is not to teach down to the dotted I and crossed T, but to inform as to the basics of the law, and the rights of cyclists... in what, 30 seconds or so...

Now a specific seminar for LE of a specific area might be a couple hours long and list all the local state, and city laws... but you are addressing a focused group there, not the general public.
Something simple, basic, and generic.

Like reminding drivers that when they encounter someone on a bicycle they need to maintain a safe following distance, only pass when safe and legal, and that there's no excuse for harassing, or endangering them.
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Old 03-30-16, 12:12 PM
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Originally Posted by kickstart
Something simple, basic, and generic.

Like reminding drivers that when they encounter someone on a bicycle they need to maintain a safe following distance, only pass when safe and legal, and that there's no excuse for harassing, or endangering them.
Exactly. Let the LEOs get the long specific data feed, so they really understand the law... but a public PSA needs to be short and simple.
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Old 04-06-16, 01:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Looigi
A bit OT, but I'm pretty much against the use off sharrows. The laws are the same regardless of whether sharrows are painted on the road or not. The presence of sharrows in some places and not in others gives the impression that that is not the case.

Evidently this is not the case for this cop, who mistakenly believes that bikes need to stay to right at all times, sharrows or not.
Sharrows are appropriate for use in any lane that is too narrow to share by a car and a cyclist side-by-side with the required clearance between them. In any such lane, a cyclist may use the full lane at any time. If parking is allowed in a wide lane, then sharrows should be placed centered in the "effective lane" which is from the lane line markings to about 12 feet out from the curb (8 feet plus 4 for the door zone).

There are a myriad of places where full lane use is quite legal and appropriate. There are very few places where riding farther to the right is 100% required by law.

The problem with sharrows is that many people don't know what they mean, and the fact that they are often coupled with (at least around Memphis) those ambiguous yellow cautionary signs with a bicycle symbol and the words "Share The Road". This is often interpreted by motorists as "you cyclists need to share the road and get out of my way!" Sharrows are much better when coupled with white regulatory signs (signs which convey the actual law instead of just suggestions) saying "Bikes May Use Full Lane" and "Change Lanes to Pass" below it.

Motorists may not agree with a cyclist using the full lane. But at least with those signs it's crystal clear that we are indeed allowed by law to do so.

Last edited by PatrickGSR94; 04-06-16 at 01:21 PM.
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Old 04-06-16, 02:02 PM
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Originally Posted by PatrickGSR94
Motorists may not agree with a cyclist using the full lane. But at least with those signs it's crystal clear that we are indeed allowed by law to do so.
The problem is the motorists who think that it's appropriate to kill people who are inconveniencing them if they (with their 30 year old half remembered/half dreamed up vehicle code knowledge) think they are operating improperly.
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Old 04-06-16, 02:26 PM
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Originally Posted by ItsJustMe
The problem is the motorists who think that it's appropriate to kill people who are inconveniencing them if they (with their 30 year old half remembered/half dreamed up vehicle code knowledge) think they are operating improperly.
Such people are exceedingly rare. In all my thousands of miles of cycling I have not once encountered such a psychotic person that truly wanted to KILL someone else on the road. Even the (relatively) extreme harassment I got in Florida while controlling the lane while adjacent to a sidepath, was not from people who wanted to kill me, and they still gave me a full lane change when passing. Even the local sheriff deputy who told me I had to be "on the white line" gave me a full lane change. I pulled over to review FL traffic law to make sure I was in the right, waited for him to get out of sight, and then continued on while controlling the lane.
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Old 04-06-16, 03:49 PM
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Originally Posted by ItsJustMe
The problem is the motorists who think that it's appropriate to kill people who are inconveniencing them if they (with their 30 year old half remembered/half dreamed up vehicle code knowledge) think they are operating improperly.
We don't know many people outside of drunks and the former Yugoslavian war crime tribunals that do that though, and that's really a subjective and cranky thought. Kindly keep it country.
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Old 04-06-16, 08:50 PM
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Originally Posted by ItsJustMe
The problem is the motorists who think that it's appropriate to kill people who are inconveniencing them if they (with their 30 year old half remembered/half dreamed up vehicle code knowledge) think they are operating improperly.
Originally Posted by PatrickGSR94
Such people are exceedingly rare. In all my thousands of miles of cycling I have not once encountered such a psychotic person that truly wanted to KILL someone else on the road. Even the (relatively) extreme harassment I got in Florida while controlling the lane while adjacent to a sidepath, was not from people who wanted to kill me, and they still gave me a full lane change when passing. Even the local sheriff deputy who told me I had to be "on the white line" gave me a full lane change. I pulled over to review FL traffic law to make sure I was in the right, waited for him to get out of sight, and then continued on while controlling the lane.
These sound like opposite sides of the same coin.

There are approximately 400 road rage fatalities in the US. a year, with only a few involving cyclists, so it's certainly not something to be seriously concerned about as an individual, and let it scare us off the road, or to act with hostility.
On the other hand, hostility expressed in a physically threatening manner happens often enough it's a legitimate concern, and a reason to not rely too much on trademark wishful thinking techniques.
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Old 04-06-16, 11:05 PM
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Since this thread is not about freaky psychotic people like the truck driver after Dennis Weaver in Duel but instead about uncommon roadway markings, let's try and stay on topic or close the discussion if there is no advancement on the topic.
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Old 04-10-16, 10:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Paul Barnard
I think we have arrived at a point where bicycle law needs to be taught in the police academies and in driver's education programs. That cop simply did not get it. I was surprised that he gave the cyclist an opportunity to speak, and he really listened to the cyclist. It'll be interesting to see what happens when it goes to court. I hope we get an update.

That was a low traffic density road at the time of the stop. No motorist who knows how to change lanes would have been impeded or even slowed for more than a few seconds. That bicyclist was riding just like I would have for the full length of the video. When I ride roads like that I will move over into the parking lane if I encounter a long stretch that is unoccupied. Cool bike.
I did not yet open the link/look at video. About the judge: all depends how far "old-school" that judge has in beliefs.
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Old 04-10-16, 10:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Rollfast
We don't know many people outside of drunks and the former Yugoslavian war crime tribunals that do that though, and that's really a subjective and cranky thought. Kindly keep it country.
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Old 04-10-16, 10:43 PM
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Originally Posted by PatrickGSR94
Such people are exceedingly rare. In all my thousands of miles of cycling I have not once encountered such a psychotic person that truly wanted to KILL someone else on the road. Even the (relatively) extreme harassment I got in Florida while controlling the lane while adjacent to a sidepath, was not from people who wanted to kill me, and they still gave me a full lane change when passing. Even the local sheriff deputy who told me I had to be "on the white line" gave me a full lane change. I pulled over to review FL traffic law to make sure I was in the right, waited for him to get out of sight, and then continued on while controlling the lane.
The most problematic motorists I get -- have Florida & Ohio state license plates.
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Old 04-11-16, 09:17 AM
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Originally Posted by kickstart
These sound like opposite sides of the same coin.

There are approximately 400 road rage fatalities in the US. a year, with only a few involving cyclists, so it's certainly not something to be seriously concerned about as an individual, and let it scare us off the road, or to act with hostility.
On the other hand, hostility expressed in a physically threatening manner happens often enough it's a legitimate concern, and a reason to not rely too much on trademark wishful thinking techniques.
And of course beyond the road rage incidents are the fools that just want to "mess with you." The jokers that throw beverage cans at you, or do intentional close passes....

While there are only 400 road rage fatalities in the US annually... how many incidents go unreported as they do not result in a fatality... but maybe mere broken bones as someone is forced off a roadway? You folks do recall the Mandeville canyon incident, right? https://articles.latimes.com/2009/nov...al/me-cyclist3

A police officer testified that Thompson told him soon after the accident that the cyclists had cursed at him and flipped him off, so he slammed on his brakes "to teach them a lesson."

Thompson testified that he never meant to hurt the riders.
Nobody was killed... so this situation doesn't make the road rage statistics... (although indeed it was news and he was caught, and sentenced.)

Last edited by genec; 04-11-16 at 09:22 AM.
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Old 04-11-16, 10:17 AM
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That's basically in line with what I'm saying. There's no sense in worrying about that one in a million chance one may encounter a true phycopath who will find some reason to do real harm, but it's wise to be on guard for those who might not make the best choices, or antagonize them to act in the heat of the moment.
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Old 04-11-16, 10:43 AM
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Seems by your judgement, only the King George loyalist were good CITIZENs.
Absolutely, you darned rebels.

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Old 04-12-16, 12:59 PM
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Originally Posted by molten
Where's your bike?
Two chained out front, one at the LBS.

Or, see https://www.bikeforums.net/alt-bike-c...-grows-up.html
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Old 04-12-16, 02:32 PM
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Originally Posted by PatrickGSR94
The problem with sharrows is that many people don't know what they mean, and the fact that they are often coupled with (at least around Memphis) those ambiguous yellow cautionary signs with a bicycle symbol and the words "Share The Road". This is often interpreted by motorists as "you cyclists need to share the road and get out of my way!" Sharrows are much better when coupled with white regulatory signs (signs which convey the actual law instead of just suggestions) saying "Bikes May Use Full Lane" and "Change Lanes to Pass" below it.
I agree that BMUFL, CLTP is the ideal situation. But the fact that sharrows are not 100% obvious to all road users doesn't mean there's a problem with them. given that many drivers are just getting used to the idea of cyclists over the age of 12 on the road, ANY signage helps to build awareness of cyclists and helps reinforce the notion that we are legitimate road users. Education takes time.

FWIW, I ride in Memphis from time to time, and I'm pretty happy with most of what they've done with lanes and signage. I very rarely have issues with motorists there. That said, I hope they take those unsafe, annoying, and useless lanes on Riverfront Drive away and come up with something that's actually suitable for bikes and cars to share.

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Old 04-12-16, 02:37 PM
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Originally Posted by bbbean
I agree that BMUFL, CLTP is the ideal situation. But the fact that sharrows are not 100% obvious to all road users doesn't mean there's a problem with them. given that many drivers are just getting used to the idea of cyclists over the age of 12 on the road, ANY signage helps to build awareness of cyclists and helps reinforce the notion that we are legitimate road users. Education takes time.

FWIW, I ride in Memphis from time to time, and I'm pretty happy with most of what they've done with lanes and signage. I very rarely have issues with motorists there. That said, I hope they take those unsafe, annoying, and useless lanes on Riverfront Drive away and come up with something that's actually suitable for bikes and cars to share.

BB
The Riverside Drive (experimental) project is long since gone. It's back to 4-lane. It was definitely crappy.

Front Street north of Beale was recently resurfaced, with sharrows placed on part of it, and bike lanes on the other part.
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Old 04-12-16, 03:01 PM
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Originally Posted by PatrickGSR94
The Riverside Drive (experimental) project is long since gone. It's back to 4-lane. It was definitely crappy.

Front Street north of Beale was recently resurfaced, with sharrows placed on part of it, and bike lanes on the other part.
Glad to hear Riverside is restored. When I'm in Memphis, I usually stay on Mud Island, so I'll have to look for the new pavement on Front. Breakfast at the Arcade always figures into my Memphis trips (no better bike fuel that Arcade coffee and sweet potato pancakes!), so a better Front St. will be a nice perk.

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