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Driver behavior on resurfaced street with no Bike Lanes (yet)

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Driver behavior on resurfaced street with no Bike Lanes (yet)

Old 06-27-16, 11:13 AM
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squirtdad
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Driver behavior on resurfaced street with no Bike Lanes (yet)

tOk, Small sample size...i.e this mornings commute.

A street I routinely ride on my morning commute just got resurfaced and has no markings other than little temporay reflectors for the center line.

The street is pretty broad and has better than average bike lanes.

Without the bike lanes (and overall lane markings) drivers came a lot closer to me than normal, while i maintained a street position that would match where I would be with the bike lane.

Just a small bit of observation, but it supports my belief that bikes lane provide the most bang for the buck in terms of infstructure.
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Old 06-27-16, 12:05 PM
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There are no such things as mamby-pamby bike lanes around here, we get shoulders occasionally and are thankful for it

But when they chipseal the road (uck) and the lines are missing, people give me a LOT MORE room. There's plenty of room for them to pass within the lane, but since there's no line telling them how wide the lane is, they revert to their assumption that their car is 47 feet wide and they have to completely pull over to pass.

RIGHT after they chipseal, they DO have to pull over to pass, because even with all the space I'm taking the lane, because there is 4 inches deep loose gravel on what would normally be the shoulder, and it's completely unrideable.
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Old 06-27-16, 03:36 PM
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Originally Posted by squirtdad View Post
Just a small bit of observation, but it supports my belief that bikes lane provide the most bang for the buck in terms of infstructure.
Paint works fine for my use. While looking at their phones, motorist's peripheral vision automatically centers them between the median (to their left) and the "fog" line (to their right) i.e., left side of the painted bike lane.

In all seriousness, my commuting life has gotten so much better over the past five years, all thanks to a little paint.
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Old 06-27-16, 06:05 PM
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Originally Posted by squirtdad View Post
...Just a small bit of observation, but it supports my belief that bikes lane provide the most bang for the buck in terms of infstructure.
That was my recommendation at a recent safety meeting. I believe well designed signs and symbols bring out the best sense of civic duty in most folks and they will voluntarily share the road because they feel a sense of satisfaction at being good citizens.

There will be a smaller minority of folks who will drive considerately regardless of signs and symbols. But most folks need those nudges.

I suggested a few more simple "Share the road" with bike icon signs, as a cost effective alternative to painting bike lanes where the roads are already plenty wide enough to accommodate vehicles and bikes side by side.

I doubt my suggestion will be adopted. Apparently there are some cross-jurisdictional issues that interfere with unilateral decisions about signage.

And, personally, I'd rather see painted stripes removed from some roads (or not repainted after the stripes deteriorate). One of our busier boulevards has a white stripe for miles on the shoulder a mere one foot from the curb. It serves no practical purpose, and may mislead drivers into thinking that's the bike lane. Dumb design. The road is already wide enough to accommodate bikes.
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Old 06-27-16, 08:14 PM
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Originally Posted by canklecat View Post
And, personally, I'd rather see painted stripes removed from some roads (or not repainted after the stripes deteriorate). One of our busier boulevards has a white stripe for miles on the shoulder a mere one foot from the curb. It serves no practical purpose, and may mislead drivers into thinking that's the bike lane. Dumb design. The road is already wide enough to accommodate bikes.
Same here; I understand why they'll often give it six inches from grass to fog line on the rural roads, (to account for some crumbling before the next repaint) but others will have 12-18"; way more than they should be allowing to crumble, but still nowhere near enough to safely ride in.
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Old 06-27-16, 08:44 PM
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Originally Posted by canklecat View Post

I suggested a few more simple "Share the road" with bike icon signs, as a cost effective alternative to painting bike lanes where the roads are already plenty wide enough to accommodate vehicles and bikes side by side.

I doubt my suggestion will be adopted. Apparently there are some cross-jurisdictional issues that interfere with unilateral decisions about signage.
There's a reason your suggestion won't and shouldn't be adopted. "Share the Road" signs actually mean that the lane is not wide enough for a motor vehicle and a bike to be side-by-side in the same lane. Because these signs are so often misunderstood, they are being replaced with "Bicycles May Use Full Lane" signs, which clarify the situation much better. In the meantime, we certainly don't need STR signs going up where the lane is wide enough for co-existence; it's confusing enough to the little darlings.

Originally Posted by canklecat View Post
And, personally, I'd rather see painted stripes removed from some roads (or not repainted after the stripes deteriorate). One of our busier boulevards has a white stripe for miles on the shoulder a mere one foot from the curb. It serves no practical purpose, and may mislead drivers into thinking that's the bike lane. Dumb design. The road is already wide enough to accommodate bikes.
I also dislike fog lines that are placed so close to the edge of the road. I have actually spoken with motorists who believe that bikes must ride on these micro-shoulders, in spite of rather clear language in our vehicle code.
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Old 06-27-16, 09:20 PM
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Originally Posted by B. Carfree View Post
..."Share the Road" signs actually mean that the lane is not wide enough for a motor vehicle and a bike to be side-by-side in the same lane. Because these signs are so often misunderstood, they are being replaced with "Bicycles May Use Full Lane" signs, which clarify the situation much better...
Yes...thank GOD. I hate "Share The Road". It means nothing. What's the alternative? Purposely run over the cyclists? Motorists think Share The Road means I should get the Hell off of the road and "share" it whenever they overtake me. Also the word "Share" does not sound like a legal term, it sounds like a suggestion. "Bicycle May Use Full Lane" is so much clearer. Or even "Change Lanes COMPLETELY Before Passing Cyclists" is a nice thought too.
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Old 06-28-16, 06:33 AM
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Our local chip sealed narrow two lane highway with no shoulder doesn't just have a fog line. Right next to it is what I call a 'rumble strip', a line of raised bumps that make a distinctive noise when hit to alert drunk or texting drivers they are not staying in their lane. These are also along the center line, and often they'll have several full road ones to alert the drivers they are approaching a fully visible stop sign. These lines are not at all pleasant to hit on a bike, especially at high speed.
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Old 06-28-16, 07:07 AM
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I do like well thought out bike lanes. They give a measure of order to where bikes and vehicles should be on the road. I prefer them to signs, sharrows, segregated lanes etc. Nothings perfectly safe of course, there have been several people killed in bike lanes around here due to drunks and distracted drivers.
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Old 06-28-16, 07:14 AM
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When one of our sharrow marked street was paved, and during the time that the sharrow markings were missing, a larger number of motorists were exhibiting considerable impatience.


One incident that occurred during the sharrow markings removal, was when an LEO became impatient, and closely passed by me with his patrol car at full throttle, only to slow down a few blocks latter, all the while without exhibiting any emergency lights.
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Old 06-28-16, 09:13 AM
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Originally Posted by JoeyBike View Post
Yes...thank GOD. I hate "Share The Road". It means nothing. What's the alternative? Purposely run over the cyclists? Motorists think Share The Road means I should get the Hell off of the road and "share" it whenever they overtake me. Also the word "Share" does not sound like a legal term, it sounds like a suggestion. "Bicycle May Use Full Lane" is so much clearer. Or even "Change Lanes COMPLETELY Before Passing Cyclists" is a nice thought too.
Gotta agree... I'd much rather see "Cyclist may use full lane."

It explains it clearly and requires no judgement.
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Old 06-28-16, 09:43 AM
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Originally Posted by JoeyBike View Post
Paint works fine for my use. While looking at their phones, motorist's peripheral vision automatically centers them between the median (to their left) and the "fog" line (to their right) i.e., left side of the painted bike lane.

In all seriousness, my commuting life has gotten so much better over the past five years, all thanks to a little paint.
And yet, most car/bike crashes lumped in the "hit from behind" category were cyclists riding in bike lanes or on shoulders, where the motorists drifted over the line.

Paint doesn't do a damn thing, or if it does, it causes motorists to pass CLOSER because they think the paint is a barrier and they don't have to move over at all.
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Old 06-28-16, 11:02 PM
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Please remember that if you paint lines on the street as traffic devices you are violating laws.


If you need to have markings for utility line boundaries as required by law (like they do for you), that's legal.


Whatever the transportation or city crews do.


If a newly paved or repaired road is unmarked, you will travel as if it was a normally unmarked road, until they mark it.


Roadbeds need time to dry and settle after they have been oiled/sealed. Lines may be paint but barred crossing markings and other indicators and symbols are like a decal and they are melted down with a torch.
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Old 07-13-16, 09:33 PM
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Thanks Rollfast; I'll let you know that I plan to become a scofflaw.

I though that you likely lived in the good ole USA given your nickname, but since the EPA banned oiling streets long ago, perhaps not. Or perhaps you are thinking of some of the anti-dusting liquids, such as calcium chloride, that get sprayed on dirt and gravel roads and work sites to control dust. Yes, newly paved streets take time to cure before they can be striped.

Street markings, including lines, crosswalks, symbols, and words all come in a wide variety of material flavors: regular roadway paint, heavier thicker roadway paint, roadway paint designed for low temperature application,roadway paint with non-slip grit, roadway paint with applied spherical reflective "sand", self adhesive rubberlike stickers (cambridge, MA bike lane markings), thermoplastic, and recessed thermoplastic. I'm sure that there are many others, but these are the ones that I've seen recently.

Last edited by randomgear; 07-13-16 at 09:33 PM. Reason: typo
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Old 07-14-16, 09:26 AM
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Originally Posted by PatrickGSR94 View Post
And yet, most car/bike crashes lumped in the "hit from behind" category were cyclists riding in bike lanes or on shoulders, where the motorists drifted over the line.

Paint doesn't do a damn thing, or if it does, it causes motorists to pass CLOSER because they think the paint is a barrier and they don't have to move over at all.
There is something to what you say...

Hans Monderman did a number of tests that lead to what he called shared space... the more the space is defined by signs and lines, the less the users feel responsible for their particular actions in that space... they are just "following orders."

Undefine the space, or use more subtle hints and people... drivers, become more responsible space users.

Now this concept has been implemented in a number of locations and it has led to some surprising results...

The town of Drachten in the Netherlands was one of the first to experiment the concept in 2002 by removing nearly all traffic signals with the aim of reducing accidents and improving both the towns quality and popularity. Despite increases in traffic volumes, accident numbers fell from 8.3 per year between 1994 and 2002 to an average of just one per year in 2005.
Eighty percent of shared space users in the Fort street area of Auckland reported feeling safer and 72 percent of drivers felt their journeys were either the same or shorter, so users appear to be happy.
...for the small town of Poynton in the county of Cheshire in Northern England. The town had seen the quality of its town center plummet with increased traffic flow and congestion, closure of retail outlets and a decline in shoppers. Its conversion into a shared space made the town more welcoming, increased footfall in eighty percent of retailers and elevated the 'dwell time' of people as they shopped.

The goal of capturing their spending power was met. Traffic speeds also fell to an average of 16-17 mph, according to Hamilton-Baillie, leading to free-flowing traffic and a reduction in accidents and fatalities from 1.1 per year to zero, since its introduction.
Shared space, where the streets have no rules - CNN.com

Of course getting this to work in places in the US is like pulling teeth... US drivers are very very used to well defined streets, with lines and signs and everything in it's proper place, so drivers can act like slot car racers and simply "stay inside the lines." Take away the lines and American motorists tend to become a bit loose with the rules. They are not used to making decisions without guidance.
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Old 07-14-16, 09:49 AM
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Originally Posted by squirtdad View Post
Just a small bit of observation, but it supports my belief that bikes lane provide the most bang for the buck in terms of infstructure.
I totally agree. My observations are the same. I am not reading any more of this thread, just your OP. I have been here long enough to know how this is going to go.
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Old 07-14-16, 11:08 AM
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Originally Posted by genec View Post
There is something to what you say...

Hans Monderman did a number of tests that lead to what he called shared space... the more the space is defined by signs and lines, the less the users feel responsible for their particular actions in that space... they are just "following orders."

Undefine the space, or use more subtle hints and people... drivers, become more responsible space users.

Now this concept has been implemented in a number of locations and it has led to some surprising results...

Shared space, where the streets have no rules - CNN.com

Of course getting this to work in places in the US is like pulling teeth... US drivers are very very used to well defined streets, with lines and signs and everything in it's proper place, so drivers can act like slot car racers and simply "stay inside the lines." Take away the lines and American motorists tend to become a bit loose with the rules. They are not used to making decisions without guidance.
That's not just Americans. The Netherlands has an extremely high road sign and markings density, even without the extra road signs and markings for cyclists. That's why the village of Makkinga decided to make the village road sign free, because it's ugly, and if there are too many signs they lose their effect. For Dutch motorists it's a big difference too, you take people from just following rules to just use their common sense and negotiating skills. I guess both the competence to follow rules and the competence to use common sense are pretty universal.

Still, there might be relevant cultural differences. The Dutch in general aren't very good at appreciating and following formal rules, they tend to make their own choices and use the rule as a well meant suggestion. But driving a car is a bit of an exception, because that's a choice in itself, you can always take the bike or a train and if you choose to drive you volunteer to follow the rules and learning to drive is quite an investment in time and money.

Cyclists tend to break the formal rules, but follow the informal ones, the ones they make themselves together. That's why tourists on their rental bikes tend to disrupt traffic, they know the formal rules but have no grasp of the anarchism of city cycling, which shouldn't be confused with chaos or lack of rules alltogether. So the cyclists have no trouble adapting to shared space, they work it out together and will eventually develop general unwritten rules. Nor do the pedestrians and motorists, because they are cyclists at some other time, or at least have been cyclists at some point in their lives. Motorists are also used to communicate and negotiate with cyclists, mostly by body language, where the motorists is mainly 'listening' and the cyclist 'talking' because in a car you can't express yourself as much through body language. So probably it would be more difficult for American drivers to adapt, but they are capable of common sense and communication.
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Old 07-14-16, 04:55 PM
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Originally Posted by randomgear View Post
Thanks Rollfast; I'll let you know that I plan to become a scofflaw.

I though that you likely lived in the good ole USA given your nickname, but since the EPA banned oiling streets long ago, perhaps not. Or perhaps you are thinking of some of the anti-dusting liquids, such as calcium chloride, that get sprayed on dirt and gravel roads and work sites to control dust. Yes, newly paved streets take time to cure before they can be striped.

Street markings, including lines, crosswalks, symbols, and words all come in a wide variety of material flavors: regular roadway paint, heavier thicker roadway paint, roadway paint designed for low temperature application,roadway paint with non-slip grit, roadway paint with applied spherical reflective "sand", self adhesive rubberlike stickers (cambridge, MA bike lane markings), thermoplastic, and recessed thermoplastic. I'm sure that there are many others, but these are the ones that I've seen recently.

I gather that is COAL TAR, not oil or whatever. Most of the hits I got from Google pertained to driveways though.
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Old 08-01-16, 01:45 PM
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The signs, around here, say "Fresh Oil".
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Old 08-01-16, 02:55 PM
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I find that in the urban setting with bike paths, most cars whizz past me without giving an inch.

On the other hand, with rural roads, with our without shoulders, about 80% of the vehicles will pass giving a full lane. The other 20% just whizz past, but most scoot as close to the center as possible.

Does your newly paved road have center markings yet? A wide lane with center markings isn't always that bad.
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Old 08-04-16, 07:38 PM
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I don't like bike lanes and I refuse to share the lane: If I'm in it, it's mine. I got sick of cars trying to pass me on the right or left or over the top while waiting for a light or other traffic and all the infinite other things drivers do that are lethal to cyclist.
Anyway, I think the signs should say, "cyclists do use full lane."
I did see another sign on a road with limited visibility, "watch out for cyclist," but I thought, "they'll get you," should have been appended.
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Old 08-05-16, 08:52 AM
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Originally Posted by boyleesquire View Post
I did see another sign on a road with limited visibility, "watch out for cyclist," but I thought, "they'll get you," should have been appended.
Maybe a sign with a cyclist aiming a .44 magnum, that says "share the road, punk" could work.
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Old 08-07-16, 09:28 PM
  #23  
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I know that is sarcasm, but gee whiz.


And boyleesquire, if you have a paid funeral, sure. Be my guest. Not kidding. Nobody takes a lane, they share the road.


It says so in the driver's manual at your DMV. Us and them is part of a Pink Floyd song.


C'mon.
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Old 08-08-16, 01:46 PM
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Originally Posted by boyleesquire View Post
I don't like bike lanes and I refuse to share the lane: If I'm in it, it's mine. I got sick of cars trying to pass me on the right or left or over the top while waiting for a light or other traffic and all the infinite other things drivers do that are lethal to cyclist.
Anyway, I think the signs should say, "cyclists do use full lane."
I did see another sign on a road with limited visibility, "watch out for cyclist," but I thought, "they'll get you," should have been appended.
If I were the Minister of Transport, I would ban lane sharing. They should be required to change lanes properly or wait patiently until there's room to pass safely. In Toronto there were requirements that transport trucks had to have side guards to prevent the draft from sucking in cyclists. But I don't see that as a good solution when driving safely should be. In the case of side guards, the cyclist would bump into it and possibly be guillotined. Squeezing cyclists is the problem and that's the result of allowing lane sharing when a cyclist rides too far to the right.

And if there were bike lanes available, make them separated and connected.
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