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Mirrors ???

Old 07-28-16, 09:36 AM
  #101  
Leisesturm
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Originally Posted by Miele Man View Post
i still find it somewhat amusing that a bicycle is t he only vehicle that does not have to have a rear-view mirror whilst being allowed on the roads.
I still find it somewhat amusing that some of us swallow whole the general wisdom that bicycles are equivalent to motor vehicles. Even the DOT doesn't actually believe it, but it does make their job immensely easier to administrate bicycles as if they were actual motor vehicles. However, since very few jurisdictions actually allow bicycle placement IN the traffic stream, except as a temporary contingency, it should inform cyclists as to where they actually fetch up in the DOT pecking order. Bicycles, even with lycra clad roadie's on board, are painfully slow compared to the humblest of motor traffic. Even farm and construction vehicles can drop road bikes like they are standing still when they get rolling. At bicycle speeds, and also the unrestricted sensory experience afforded to most cyclists compared to other road vehicles makes a mirror fairly optional. A motorcyclist wearing a full face helmet has much less ability to easily acquire information about developments to the rear, mirrors are advisable. If I use a mirror from now till the day I die, I doubt I will be able to equal the number of days I have gone riding without any. Same streets, same speeds, same traffic... ... ... ... ...
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Old 07-28-16, 10:21 AM
  #102  
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Originally Posted by cncwhiz View Post
Camilo,

You and I as well as simple physics know a mirror is safer than none at all. There is no way to reason with some of these guys, so I am done with them. My safety is more important than what I look like so I will ride my restored old bikes with my lights, 7 dollar mirror and my primal wear and be a happy rider.
Again!

You "Know" - I don't. You should learn the difference between a belief/opinion and a fact. I ride as safely without a mirror as I would with one. Yes I've tried them.
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Old 07-28-16, 11:59 AM
  #103  
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Originally Posted by MieleMan View Post
I find a good mirror very useful in heavy traffic where it's hard to tell by sound if a vehicle is behind you, beside you or in front of you.

Like many things to do with bicycling, those who like mirrors will use them and those who don't like mirrors won't use them. i still find it somewhat amusing that a bicycle is the only vehicle that does not have to have a rear-view mirror whilst being allowed on the roads.
I have previously posted
Originally Posted by Jim from Boston View Post
…After numerous posts to these mirror popcorn threads, I decided “No mas.”…
Originally Posted by Jim fromBoston View Post
... One other situation where hearing is ineffective, even on rural roads, occurs when being passed by one car, and I'm never sure that another one is following the first. No problem with a mirror.
Originally Posted by Leisesturm View Post
I still find it somewhat amusing that some of us swallow whole the general wisdom that bicycles are equivalent to motor vehicles. Even the DOT doesn'tactually believe it, but it does make their job immensely easier to administrate bicycles as if theywere actual motor vehicles. However, since very few jurisdictions actually allow bicycle placement IN the traffic stream, except as a temporary contingency, it should inform cyclists as to where they actually fetch up in the DOT pecking order. Bicycles, even with lycra clad roadie's onboard, are painfully slow compared to the humblest of motor traffic. Even farm and construction vehicles can drop road bikes like they are standing still whenthey get rolling. At bicycle speeds, and also the unrestricted sensor yexperience afforded to most cyclists compared to other road vehicles makes a mirror fairly optional. A motorcyclist wearing a full face helmet has much lessability to easily acquire information about developments to the rear, mirrors are advisable. If I use a mirror from now till the day I die, I doubt I will be able to equal the number of days I have gone riding without any. Same streets,same speeds, same traffic... ... ... ... ...
While I’m a mirror maven, I do like your comment about “the unrestricted sensory experience” which I think is enhanced by a mirror. In any case that is one of my arguments when hassled about cycling on the streets; it looks more dangerous to the observer when ensconced in a car than to me on the road.


Secondly, I like your contrarian point of view of bikes as equivalent to motor vehicles. I have a mental analogy of bikes as nimble amphibians compared to autos as lumbering dinosaurs. Like amphibians who can live on land and water, bikes ride on the roads and go off-road, on sidewalks and narrow trails. Our survival depends on not being trampled by the behemoths, so I do everything I can to avoid them, for example when stopped at red lights in traffic.
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Old 07-28-16, 12:27 PM
  #104  
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Originally Posted by Jim from Boston View Post
...I have a mental analogy of bikes as nimble amphibians compared to autos as lumbering dinosaurs. Like amphibians who can live on land and water, bikes ride on the roads and go off-road, on sidewalks and narrow trails. Our survival depends on not being trampled by the behemoths, so I do everything I can to avoid them, for example when stopped at red lights in traffic.
There is one intersection on my way to work every day that is so busy I have just given up the idea of running that red light, and I don't really want to stand in direct sunlight for 60 seconds waiting for the green, nor do I want to be a sitting duck in line, nor do I want to lead a pack of cars off this light onto a one-lane 35mph boulevard.

So...

I stop at the right curb about 200 feet before the light, under a shady oak tree, where there is a telephone pole to lean on. I am in front of the last parallel parked car on that block, so I am shielded by one to five parked cars from the rear. So there I sit on my bike leaning my right hand on the pole until the light turns green. Then I just follow the last car in line across the light. Safe, easy, and without heat exhaustion. As you stated...I do everything I can to avoid them!
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Old 07-28-16, 12:48 PM
  #105  
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Anti mirror and anti reflector people are simply too obtuse to allow something like common sense affect their judgement.
Unless a cyclist has a physical or mental handicap; correctly using a mirror is as safe as, or safer than not using a mirror. Period.
You can regularly drink from a water bottle, consume food/gels and ride up to 40 mph with your freaking shoes clipped in place but you can't glance at a mirror every now and then?
Riiiiiight....

Last edited by bakes1; 07-28-16 at 12:53 PM.
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Old 07-28-16, 02:19 PM
  #106  
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Originally Posted by bakes1 View Post
You can regularly drink from a water bottle, consume food/gels and ride up to 40 mph with your freaking shoes clipped in place but you can't glance at a mirror every now and then?
Riiiiiight....
It does seem simple when you can do it, doesn't it? But then, I cut my own hair with electric clippers and scissors using TWO mirrors and get the back perfect every time. So operating with one mirror seems like kindergarten stuff to me.

There are still motorists who think seat belts don't add safety for them as well. Seriously...humans can deny anything AND find justification for the denial.

The Hidden Danger of Seat Belts - TIME
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Old 07-28-16, 02:21 PM
  #107  
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Originally Posted by bakes1 View Post
Anti mirror and anti reflector people are simply too obtuse to allow something like common sense affect their judgement.
Unless a cyclist has a physical or mental handicap; correctly using a mirror is as safe as, or safer than not using a mirror. Period.
You can regularly drink from a water bottle, consume food/gels and ride up to 40 mph with your freaking shoes clipped in place but you can't glance at a mirror every now and then?
Riiiiiight....
Don't forget the Head Honcho for pontificating about Effective Cycling (Safety) made all the usual suspect obtuse arguments against the effectiveness/usefulness of bicycle mirrors and reflectors in his tome. I understand that old age and changes in his own physical ability to ride and look backwards at the same time have softened his attitude on mirrors. Haven't noticed if he altered his similar obtuse arguments against the effectiveness/usefulness of bicycle reflectors though his acolytes John Allen and John Shubert are keeping up the good fight.
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Old 07-30-16, 01:12 AM
  #108  
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Why is that so many immediately attack "bicycle is a vehicle" by adding the word "motor" in front of it?

I never said I considered a bicycle to be a motor vehicle. I do think that in heavy traffic where oncoming traffic noise can mask the sounds of overtaking vehicles; or where electric vehicles including electric bicycles are present, that a rear view mirror can and does add a good elelment of safety to bicycling. Being able to see what's approaching from behing whilst still looking forward is an added saftey advantage not a detriment to bicycling in traffic.

Cheers
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Old 08-02-16, 08:35 PM
  #109  
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Originally Posted by work4bike View Post
You learn to move your eyes mostly. However, the slight head movement for using a mirror is far less than looking behind yourself. I don't think there's much difference between my head movement when looking at my computer vs. my mirror. Maybe I'll look into that next time I'm on the bike

To all others: I don't want to sound like I'm lecturing anyone -- I don't care if anyone uses a mirror or not, my only point in getting into this conversation is to counter any ideas that mirrors are unsafe because they are a distraction. I really don't care if anyone uses them or not, but for me and my riding style, a mirror fits perfectly.



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I can't go through trying to learn to move my eyes, without my head. I know the point. But it won't work for me.
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Old 08-03-16, 04:58 AM
  #110  
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Originally Posted by Chris0516 View Post
I can't go through trying to learn to move my eyes, without my head. I know the point. But it won't work for me.
Originally Posted by work4bike View Post
You learn to move your eyes mostly. However, the slight head movement for using a mirror is far less than looking behind yourself. I don't think there's much difference between my head movement when looking at my computer vs. my mirror. Maybe I'll look into that next time I'm on the bike

To all others: I don't want to sound like I'm lecturing anyone -- I don't care if anyone uses a mirror or not, my only point in getting into this conversation is to counter any ideas that mirrors are unsafe because they are a distraction. I really don't care if anyone uses them or not, but for me and my riding style, a mirror fits perfectly.
I actually checked this out the other day and there is no more movement in my head when I look at my mirror or computer and many times it's just a movement of my eyes when looking at either.
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Old 08-03-16, 05:33 AM
  #111  
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I have a mirror, dork disk, and kickstand on my bikes. If that doesn't bother you, you're okay. If it upsets you, get a life!
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Old 08-03-16, 09:47 AM
  #112  
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Originally Posted by Miele Man View Post
Being able to see what's approaching from behing whilst still looking forward is an added saftey advantage not a detriment to bicycling in traffic.
Except that's simply not possible. I don't care what kind of mirror it is, the nanosecond you bring it into focus your ability to process visual input outside the mirrors field of view goes away. Go ahead, try it. With practice, you will get better at quickly re-focusing for 'normal' view after a mirror scan, but that is as good as it gets: quickly switching vs simultaneous monitoring. And that is without introducing the total fail of 'passive monitoring' where mirrors alert cyclists to threats without the cyclist having to actively bring the mirror into focus.
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Old 08-03-16, 11:40 AM
  #113  
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Originally Posted by Leisesturm View Post
Except that's simply not possible. I don't care what kind of mirror it is, the nanosecond you bring it into focus your ability to process visual input outside the mirrors field of view goes away. Go ahead, try it. With practice, you will get better at quickly re-focusing for 'normal' view after a mirror scan, but that is as good as it gets: quickly switching vs simultaneous monitoring. And that is without introducing the total fail of 'passive monitoring' where mirrors alert cyclists to threats without the cyclist having to actively bring the mirror into focus.
Sorry old boy but i look in my mirror whilst I'm still looking ahead at traffic all the time.I can see and process what's in the mirror as well as what's going on ahead of me at the same time. And that's EXACTLY why I like the mirror = I can keep situational awareness at all times.

Cheers
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Old 08-03-16, 12:01 PM
  #114  
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Originally Posted by JoeyBike View Post
We understand. We just don't believe it is just as safe ignoring what is roaring up behind you, or turning your head around every 15 seconds, as it is to use a mirror. We don't buy that your ears are a great substitute for your eyes under all circumstances.

You don't like mirrors, don't use one. Just spare us the nonsense that it is just as safe cycling in traffic without one. Just come clean. You don't like mirrors. They make you look (more) dorky, or you just can't figure out how to use one. You are not fooling one single person who bikes with a mirror on the safety issue.
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I have never used a mirror. I generally ride in light traffic, so I've never felt the need for one, though I am open minded about the usefulness of them. This may seem like a weird question, and it is certainly one born of ignorance, but is there a learning curve associated with using a mirror? I am constantly changing my hand locations and thusly my head position, so it seems to me that in the amount of time it takes me to align my view so that the mirror is aligned right I could hav done a quick head check. It seems like the size of the helmet mirrors would make it difficult to get any detail about what's behind you and that you'd have to work at getting your head properly aligned. People that ride with me comment that it looks like my head is on a swivel. Between that and using my ears I have never had a surprise from behind. I guess I just need to try a few different mirrors to see how they work out. I may find that I like them. I certainly don't worry about looking like a dork.
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Old 08-03-16, 12:50 PM
  #115  
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I always use a mirror so I can see the faces of following riders with their faces wretched in pain and gasping for air as they try desperately to keep up with me.... uh wait,that was just a dream.
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Old 08-03-16, 12:55 PM
  #116  
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I like to watch them puke as they try to pass me.
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Old 08-03-16, 02:20 PM
  #117  
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Originally Posted by 10 Wheels View Post
I like to watch them puke as they try to pass me.
Maybe try bathing more than once a year.
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Old 08-03-16, 10:05 PM
  #118  
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Originally Posted by velonomad View Post
I always use a mirror so I can see the faces of following riders with their faces wretched in pain and gasping for air as they try desperately to keep up with me.... uh wait,that was just a dream.
I hate to admit it, but there is some entertainment value in pushing a slower rider (that you just passed) if they try to close the gap. All without having to turn your head to acknowledge their existence.

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Old 08-04-16, 05:58 AM
  #119  
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Originally Posted by JoeyBike View Post
When seat-belt laws were first enacted my grandmother hated the shoulder strap and thought it was going to give her breast cancer.

New things take getting used to.



Some of us, it appears, have more capacity for processing information quickly and accurately, without undue mental stress, than others. At least from what I gather reading the commentary on this thread and other mirror threads.

I would venture a bold theory here: If someone can process information gathered from THREE mirrors while operating a motor vehicle in dense traffic traveling at 102 feet per second (70mph) keeping the vehicle between two sets of painted lines while dialing in satellite radio and chatting with a passenger, they SHOULD be able to handle a friggin' bike mirror at 15mph.

I don't stop needlessly for red lights because I don't want to. Some cyclists do not use a mirror because they don't want to. If they truly CAN'T figure out a simple mirror, given all of the styles out there for sale, then perhaps there is another list of things they shouldn't be doing either.
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I have never driven a car, for medical reasons. So that element is moot for me.

I use my eyes n' ears, instead of mirror.
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Old 08-04-16, 11:40 AM
  #120  
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I don't have a mirror because I'm afraid to see my own self by accident, lose control and injure myself!
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Old 08-04-16, 01:57 PM
  #121  
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Originally Posted by Leisesturm View Post
I still find it somewhat amusing that some of us swallow whole the general wisdom that bicycles are equivalent to motor vehicles. Even the DOT doesn't actually believe it, but it does make their job immensely easier to administrate bicycles as if they were actual motor vehicles. However, since very few jurisdictions actually allow bicycle placement IN the traffic stream, except as a temporary contingency, it should inform cyclists as to where they actually fetch up in the DOT pecking order. Bicycles, even with lycra clad roadie's on board, are painfully slow compared to the humblest of motor traffic. Even farm and construction vehicles can drop road bikes like they are standing still when they get rolling. At bicycle speeds, and also the unrestricted sensory experience afforded to most cyclists compared to other road vehicles makes a mirror fairly optional. A motorcyclist wearing a full face helmet has much less ability to easily acquire information about developments to the rear, mirrors are advisable. If I use a mirror from now till the day I die, I doubt I will be able to equal the number of days I have gone riding without any. Same streets, same speeds, same traffic... ... ... ... ...
Well what happens with all "Advocacy groups" these days is they promptly get dominated by their most vocal and radical members while the others, not wanting to appear "narrow minded" and "not with the progressive program," sit back with their heads low and endure it. I have always felt that bicycles are secondary users on the roadway. To me, I enter the lane of traffic only as needed, and briefly. Similarly, I find the vast majority of motor vehicle users are courteous and reasonable, and enter the "bicycle lane" (which to me is the shoulder, if there is one) only as needed and briefly, also.

I like having a mirror because I of the complete knowledge it gives me of the roadway, which is a necessary (but not sufficient, for you logicians out there) condition for safe riding. I can quickly see an untenable alignment of traffic coming up as I scan the vehicles coming from in front and behind. Plus they mark me as a cycling geek even more than the shiniest and most lascivious spandex.
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Old 08-13-16, 02:14 PM
  #122  
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Speaking of mirrors I was a cop for 30 years and went to many fatal bike accidents, Ive seen at least three where a bicyclist was clipped and killed by an over-wide rear view mirror on an RV, usually driven by 70ish senior citizen. Most cops today don't enforce over width mirror violations (some don't even know the law on them) Lately I've been seeing more of them on the roads than in the past......BTW I ride a bike almost every day, I do wear a mirror duct taped to the left side of my helmet......I ride sometimes in mid town Manhattan where every little edge U can get helps.
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Old 08-23-16, 02:40 PM
  #123  
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I have a mirror because I didnt feel 100% comfortable trying to turn my head to see behind me while riding in the road. Now i like it for when i do casual riding with the family or on the bike trail with the riding group ( because the sweep says " rider back" and she usually says it when they are close- i like to know a bit sooner ( not her fault though)).

I dont think theres anything wrong with not having one.
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Old 08-24-16, 08:51 PM
  #124  
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Originally Posted by Paul Barnard View Post
I have never used a mirror. I generally ride in light traffic, so I've never felt the need for one, though I am open minded about the usefulness of them. This may seem like a weird question, and it is certainly one born of ignorance, but is there a learning curve associated with using a mirror? I am constantly changing my hand locations and thusly my head position, so it seems to me that in the amount of time it takes me to align my view so that the mirror is aligned right I could hav done a quick head check. It seems like the size of the helmet mirrors would make it difficult to get any detail about what's behind you and that you'd have to work at getting your head properly aligned. People that ride with me comment that it looks like my head is on a swivel. Between that and using my ears I have never had a surprise from behind. I guess I just need to try a few different mirrors to see how they work out. I may find that I like them. I certainly don't worry about looking like a dork.
Yes. There's a definite learning curve.

I gave up on mirrors the first time I tried one for a couple days.

Tried again a few years later but left it on the helmet for 2 weeks. By the end of that period it felt as natural and normal as looking ahead. Now I use it exactly as @JoeyBike mentions.

Don't give up too early!
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Old 08-24-16, 10:31 PM
  #125  
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Originally Posted by work4bike View Post
I actually checked this out the other day and there is no more movement in my head when I look at my mirror or computer and many times it's just a movement of my eyes when looking at either.
More power to you. It won't work for me.
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