Update on "5 cyclists killed in Kalamazoo"
08-31-17, 07:13 PM
#176
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Thanks for the update, and I hope you continue these reports.
Here's to hoping Picket does not get away with this.
Here's to hoping Picket does not get away with this.
09-01-17, 05:49 PM
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Can the Michigan Supreme Court refuse to hear his case?
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09-01-17, 06:05 PM
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This kind of pretrial maneuvering is pretty typical in high profile cases.
For my money, the defendant can delay the trial as long as he wants, as long as he's in jail through the process. Time in before and after trial are just about the same as far as I'm concerned.
For my money, the defendant can delay the trial as long as he wants, as long as he's in jail through the process. Time in before and after trial are just about the same as far as I'm concerned.
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Just because I'm tired of arguing, doesn't mean you're right.
“One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN
WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
09-09-17, 10:00 PM
#180
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Here's an example of how Pickett's case should be handled.
"Stripper, former assistant principal, sentenced to 32 years after DUI wreck kills police officer"
Similar sad sack histories of multiple addictions, life in free-fall, enabling behaviors by those around them, trying to blame the victims.
"Stripper, former assistant principal, sentenced to 32 years after DUI wreck kills police officer"
Similar sad sack histories of multiple addictions, life in free-fall, enabling behaviors by those around them, trying to blame the victims.
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09-10-17, 08:20 PM
#181
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Sounds more like an episode of Law And Order: SVU from the headline alone.
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09-18-17, 07:42 PM
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Yep. I keep a close eye on info about this tragic incident.
09-26-17, 09:04 AM
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The 5-foot safe passing and driver’s education improvement bills are up for hearing tomorrow. There's still time to email the Senate Judiciary Committee to show your support for the bills. LMB has info and a link here:
https://www.lmb.org/index.php?option=...159&Itemid=196
https://www.lmb.org/index.php?option=...159&Itemid=196
09-28-17, 03:25 AM
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Bike bills inspired by Kalamazoo crash approved by Senate panel | MLive.com
She(Sen. Margaret O'Brien) and Sen. David Knezek, D-Dearborn Heights, introduced a package of bills designed to protect cyclists. The Senate Judiciary Committee approved the bills this morning, and are headed next to the Senate floor.
She(Sen. Margaret O'Brien) and Sen. David Knezek, D-Dearborn Heights, introduced a package of bills designed to protect cyclists. The Senate Judiciary Committee approved the bills this morning, and are headed next to the Senate floor.
09-28-17, 03:52 AM
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Of course, none of these laws would have made a difference for the Kalamazoo accident.
Perhaps the one thing that would make a difference would be changing the attitude towards driving intoxicated or impaired. Perhaps reduce the legal Blood Alcohol levels... 0.05%? And make stiffer penalties for driving while intoxicated.
I'm not sure what the ideal safe passing distance is. 3 foot? 4 foot?
Personally, I think that passing anybody, bicycle, car, tractor, pedestrian, etc, should be done in a manner to not endanger other road users. I.E. not endangering the person being passed, nor oncoming vehicles on the road.
I dislike it when drivers pass 100% in the opposite lane as I think it creates greater risk for collisions due to not being able to return to one's lane in time.
I suppose the advantage with a 5 foot law is that with a 3 foot law, one can argue whether a pass was really 2'6" or 3'. With a 5 foot law, it becomes much more clearly illegal when a 2' pass is executed.
Of course, this all brings attention to multiple road users which is a good thing.
Perhaps the one thing that would make a difference would be changing the attitude towards driving intoxicated or impaired. Perhaps reduce the legal Blood Alcohol levels... 0.05%? And make stiffer penalties for driving while intoxicated.
I'm not sure what the ideal safe passing distance is. 3 foot? 4 foot?
Personally, I think that passing anybody, bicycle, car, tractor, pedestrian, etc, should be done in a manner to not endanger other road users. I.E. not endangering the person being passed, nor oncoming vehicles on the road.
I dislike it when drivers pass 100% in the opposite lane as I think it creates greater risk for collisions due to not being able to return to one's lane in time.
I suppose the advantage with a 5 foot law is that with a 3 foot law, one can argue whether a pass was really 2'6" or 3'. With a 5 foot law, it becomes much more clearly illegal when a 2' pass is executed.
Of course, this all brings attention to multiple road users which is a good thing.
09-28-17, 08:15 AM
#188
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Perhaps the one thing that would make a difference would be changing the attitude towards driving intoxicated or impaired. Perhaps reduce the legal Blood Alcohol levels... 0.05%? And make stiffer penalties for driving while intoxicated.
I'm not sure what the ideal safe passing distance is. 3 foot? 4 foot?
Personally, I think that passing anybody, bicycle, car, tractor, pedestrian, etc, should be done in a manner to not endanger other road users. I.E. not endangering the person being passed, nor oncoming vehicles on the road.
I'm not sure what the ideal safe passing distance is. 3 foot? 4 foot?
Personally, I think that passing anybody, bicycle, car, tractor, pedestrian, etc, should be done in a manner to not endanger other road users. I.E. not endangering the person being passed, nor oncoming vehicles on the road.
As far as the passing law, I am actually against the proposal. I like Michigan's existing law, that is not enforced. It requires safe passing in general, without specifying a distance that is sure to be easily dismissed when charges are laid which are not measured out by police:
Originally Posted by https://legislature.mi.gov/doc.aspx?mcl-257-638
257.638 Overtaking and passing on left of another vehicle; violation as civil infraction.
Sec. 638.
(1) A vehicle shall not be driven to the left side of the center of a 2-lane highway or in the center lane of a 3-lane highway in overtaking and passing another vehicle proceeding in the same direction unless the left side or center lane is clearly visible and is free of oncoming traffic for a sufficient distance ahead to permit the overtaking and passing to be completely made without interfering with the safe operation of a vehicle approaching from the opposite direction or the vehicle overtaken.
(2) A person who violates this section is responsible for a civil infraction.
Sec. 638.
(1) A vehicle shall not be driven to the left side of the center of a 2-lane highway or in the center lane of a 3-lane highway in overtaking and passing another vehicle proceeding in the same direction unless the left side or center lane is clearly visible and is free of oncoming traffic for a sufficient distance ahead to permit the overtaking and passing to be completely made without interfering with the safe operation of a vehicle approaching from the opposite direction or the vehicle overtaken.
(2) A person who violates this section is responsible for a civil infraction.
09-28-17, 10:37 AM
#189
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Personally, I think that passing anybody, bicycle, car, tractor, pedestrian, etc, should be done in a manner to not endanger other road users. I.E. not endangering the person being passed, nor oncoming vehicles on the road.
It requires safe passing in general, without specifying a distance that is sure to be easily dismissed
Yeah, it would be nice if the distance based laws were more "speed aware..." I have no problem with passing within inches when both parties are moving in the 20MPH range, but at 50MPH+, I want feet of separation.
"Safe pass" has been the law for decades in most states... and just has not worked well enough.
09-28-17, 10:55 AM
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The problem with not specifying a distance is that mere inches suffice as a "safe pass" to some, while others require much more room... and from a cycling perspective, the mere wind from a passing vehicle can be "endangering..." but the average motorist doesn't bother to take that into consideration.
...
"Safe pass" has been the law for decades in most states... and just has not worked well enough.
...
"Safe pass" has been the law for decades in most states... and just has not worked well enough.
In either case, if tickets are not being written now, I doubt they will be with a new law. The problem is not with the law, it is with enforcement.
09-28-17, 11:04 AM
#191
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The converse of that, though, is if the law says that you must leave X feet while passing, you need to prove actual passed distance if any lawyer who isn't a complete idiot is defending the accused.
In either case, if tickets are not being written now, I doubt they will be with a new law. The problem is not with the law, it is with enforcement.
In either case, if tickets are not being written now, I doubt they will be with a new law. The problem is not with the law, it is with enforcement.
That doesn't really make the pass safe... but that is all the defense needs under a safe pass law.
Eye witnesses, photos and expert witnesses (LEOs) can all testify regarding a specific distance. ("it was certainly less than 5 feet...")
Ideally, the actual safe pass distance should be greater than the distance a cyclist could fall... (all it takes is a rock) but that is even harder to define.
And yeah, enforcement is indeed the issue... same as the proliferation of speeding violations and right on red violations.
09-28-17, 11:20 AM
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09-28-17, 11:34 AM
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I can go back and forth on this all day
Last edited by jefnvk; 09-28-17 at 11:39 AM.
09-28-17, 11:50 AM
#195
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Yeah, no point in hashing this over and over... it's been done.
09-28-17, 12:09 PM
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May I make a Suggestion? Assuming you all said ,"of course" I will.
This thread had sussessfully stayed focused on this specific crash and the current case arising from it. I suggest, we break the thread at post 186, relating to the introduction of the laws now being discussed, and move that to a new thread.
I suggest this out of respect for the victims and those who care about that specific case. In any case, regardless of opinions about the laws now being debated, I'm sure we all agree that they would not and could not have prevented a crash like the one which is the thread was about.
This thread had sussessfully stayed focused on this specific crash and the current case arising from it. I suggest, we break the thread at post 186, relating to the introduction of the laws now being discussed, and move that to a new thread.
I suggest this out of respect for the victims and those who care about that specific case. In any case, regardless of opinions about the laws now being debated, I'm sure we all agree that they would not and could not have prevented a crash like the one which is the thread was about.
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An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.
Just because I'm tired of arguing, doesn't mean you're right.
“One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN
WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
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An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.
Just because I'm tired of arguing, doesn't mean you're right.
“One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN
WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
09-28-17, 01:31 PM
#197
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Hey guys. I posted a link to the story about the upcoming legislation vote because the surviving riders of the Kalamazoo tragedy were invited to speak at the voting.
In hindsight, that may have been a mistake. This is a thread about the trial of the alleged perpetrator.
Please take any discussion of the merits plus or minus of the proposed 5’ law to a new thread.
Thank you.
In hindsight, that may have been a mistake. This is a thread about the trial of the alleged perpetrator.
Please take any discussion of the merits plus or minus of the proposed 5’ law to a new thread.
Thank you.
09-28-17, 01:51 PM
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Ok, I've split off a new thread related to the new Michigan legislation.
New Michigan (Kalamazoo) Bike Legislation
New Michigan (Kalamazoo) Bike Legislation
09-29-17, 07:12 AM
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Sorry for initiating the derail here, and thanks for splitting the vulnerable road user bill discussion into a new thread.
10-08-17, 07:27 AM
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This kind of delay is a travesty because of what it does to the families involved.
We have victims and we have a killer. Why is it so complicated. The killer didnt give the victims any time at all.
We have victims and we have a killer. Why is it so complicated. The killer didnt give the victims any time at all.
