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Originally Posted by mr_bill
(Post 19090174)
So can we start learning from what *happened* here rather than learn from what *didn't* happen here?
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Here is a truck/bicycle accident in China with video.
http://www.bikeforums.net/advocacy-s...ing-video.html Possibly similar to the Chicago accident. The big problem with trucks is how far the rear wheels travel outside of the front turning radius. So of someone gets knocked over by the front of the truck, the get swallowed up by the very deadly rear. More visible turn signals on trucks (and all vehicles) would help some. It was also suggested in the thread above that one could add skirts to the trucks, so that it may be able to push bicycles and pedestrians away from the side of the truck, rather than letting them get run over by the rear wheels. At least such devices need more testing. |
The cyclist is dead right.
Nobody's saying that the cyclist broke the law. What I said was that you could not pay me enough money to do what the cyclist did because I know how difficult it is to see around a large truck, so I feel that any cyclist that intentionally stays to the right of a large truck had better be ready to move extremely fast if the truck starts to turn right. I think a lot of people do not understand how far the rear tires on a long truck track over when they're turning. The rear tires can easily roll over a track 5 or 6 feet to the right of the front wheels when they're turning right. That puts the rear tires right over the top of most bike lanes. If you're to the right of a truck and it's turning right, you had better move somewhere else instantly. You're not wrong, but you're about to be dead. |
From what I read of s similar case in Portland some years ago, the truck industry is resisting the installation of sidebars (common in the UK) on commercial vehicles. Most of the cases of fatal left hooks in London have been by tipper trucks delivering and collecting materials from the many construction sites, including the very major Crossrail project. Such trucks are not required to have them AFAIK
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Originally Posted by kingston
(Post 19089833)
The cyclist is dead
The truck driver is alive Even if you executed the truck driver, the cyclist is still dead. While we are waiting for the laws to change, I'll continue to advise cyclists to avoid riding through intersections on the right side of a truck. The truck driver violated the law. He also has BLOOD ON HIS HANDS! How about advising ****ing maniacal and lackadaisical elbow motorists to pay attention and stop killing innocent people? What about that?! You see the sign in the story? YIELD TO BIKES! Both her and the truck driver were traveling in the same direction. She was riding where she was supposed to ride. LEGALLY! He was not driving LEGALLY! |
Originally Posted by CliffordK
(Post 19090378)
.....
The big problem with trucks is how far the rear wheels travel outside of the front turning radius. So of someone gets knocked over by the front of the truck, the get swallowed up by the very deadly rear.. The rear wheels track Inside the front turning radius, turning a smaller circle. If they tracked outside, the clearance to a cyclist on the inside of the turn would increase, and tight hooks wouldn't be as dangerous. |
Originally Posted by FBinNY
(Post 19089841)
These things are more complex that.
IMO the key element is who got there first and when, plus the position of the bicyclist. These details are still not unknown to me, so I'm not assigning any blame, and am more concerned here with takeaways riders can use and learn from. If the bicycle was there or approaching first and the driver caught up to her at or near the light, it's 100%, undeniably the driver's fault because he knew or should have known she was there and acted accordingly. However, if the truck were stopped at the corner, and the cyclist rolled up on the right and stopped behind the cab, then she placed herself in the blind spot, and we can say whatever we want but the driver couldn't see her, and I have a hard time blaming anyone for not being psychic. Regardless of fault, which it isn't my job to apportion, the takeaway here is to not shoal stopped long trucks, and if you do, to make sure you're seen, or have an escape route in the event the truck starts to turn. I ride among commercial trucks every day, and (hate to admit it) shoal stopped traffic routinely. But if there's a truck at the corner, I either wait behind him, or if there's no turn signal may ride up, but only if I'm confident that I can pass him completely before the light changes. I also make it a point to get the driver's attention, and routinely call out "don't turn right". In contrast to a post a few up, If I'm next to a truck or bus waiting at the light, I don't wait, and will even jump it slightly to get out in front as the light turns. My acceleration is batter than that of a heavy vehicle so I'm always well clear before he can begin his turn. So the point here isn't to blame the driver or the cyclist who paid dearly for her mistake IF she made one. It's to remind anyone who cares that cyclists should not spend any time riding or stopped between the front and rear axles because they can't be seen there. |
Originally Posted by FBinNY
(Post 19090277)
Absolutely, and since we're bicyclists, not truck drivers, the lessons, for us here, relate to what we can do as bicyclists, not as truck drivers. |
Originally Posted by jeichelberg87
(Post 19090733)
Yeah. The point is exactly that. Start HOLDING PEOPLE ACCOUNTABLE FOR KILLING PEOPLE! Jesus H Chriist. All this hand wringing and crap. Motorists are killing thousands of freaking people every year, and everybody here wants to do an in-depth analysis. This elbow killed a woman. It was his damned fault!
We could vent and rail about "killer drivers" or how dangerous the infrastructure is, or anything along those veins. But this is a bicycle forum, not a driving or civil engineering forum. So the audience that reads these posts are cyclists, and some of us prefer to focus our efforts based on our audience. I can't change the world, but maybe I could use these events as opportunities to warn fellow cyclists (those people who actually read bicycle forum posts) about something that they can avoid or manage to their benefit. If and when truck drivers start reading my posts, I'll speak to them and my message will be very different. |
@jeichelberg87, I don't understand the point you are trying to make. I don't think any laws need to change. You're the one who said we need harsher penalties for truck drivers who run over cyclists. That would require a change to the laws as far as I can tell. I also don't think harsher penalties will prevent careless driving. All the research I have seen suggests that harsher penalties have little or no impact on crime prevention. The best way to prevent these types of accidents is for the cyclists to avoid putting themselves in dangerous positions in the first place. I bet that woman didn't even know that a right hook is a thing, much less how to avoid it.
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Did the trucker pass the cyclist? Were turn signas on? Those things were the responsibility of the trucker.
If the trucker knew they were going to turn, and failed to indicate that... the trucker was fully responsible. |
Originally Posted by genec
(Post 19090869)
If the trucker knew they were going to turn, and failed to indicate that... the trucker was fully responsible. We don't know the facts, nor will of us ever serve on a jury on this case (civil or criminal), nor are any of us ever likely to serve on any jury on a case involving a bicycle v. motor vehicle collision with injury or death. (because we'd be disqualified through voir dire) So, if we're interested in change, we might direct our attention to those things that we can control and/or change. namely our own actions, and those whom we might influence. This isn't to say, we shouldn't try to improve things in the big picture, just that we should talk to those who are listening, and in a position to do something. |
Originally Posted by genec
(Post 19090869)
Did the trucker pass the cyclist? Were turn signas on?
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Definitely try to avoid being in that situation, but sometimes it's not up to you. The trucks are faster and may catch and pass you when you didn't expect, then make a quick right turn in front of you. A mirror may help, though not always.
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Originally Posted by genec
(Post 19090895)
Hmmmm. "Earlier today" no one mentioned turn signals or the intentions of the driver.
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When approaching an intersection, I try to look for stopped vehicles with turn signals on. And never pass to the right of a vehicle that is signalling unless I know:
One of the problems is that turn signals whether on or off are not always visible to people to the side of the turning vehicle, an issue that DOT needs to seriously look at. There is work on improving signal visibility, but it certainly isn't universal. So, a person might be standing next to a truck that is signalling, and not be able to see the signals. I've been around trucks enough to know that the rear wheels don't follow the front. Semi Trucks are the worst, but apparently little bobtail trucks are also problematic. When this woman realized the truck was turning, did she take evasive actions? How much? And, how quickly did the truck accelerate for the turn? |
Originally Posted by vol
(Post 19090888)
Definitely try to avoid being in that situation, but sometimes it's not up to you. The trucks are faster and may catch and pass you when you didn't expect, then make a quick right turn in front of you. A mirror may help, though not always.
I agree in that situation there's pretty much nothing the cyclist could do. In real life the cyclist can see if there's a truck on their left as they approach the intersection and either speed up to get ahead of the truck or slow down to avoid the potential right hook as @FBinNY has already explained. |
Originally Posted by kingston
(Post 19090244)
Is there a point there @mr_bill or are you just trolling? I provided a link to a published eye-witness report of the incident, and you respond with and unsupported contradictory claim and some cryptic question that doesn't make any sense.
While you seem to want to believe that the accident was the truck driver's fault, there isn't really any evidence to support that position. |
Originally Posted by FBinNY
(Post 19090746)
I suppose it depends on what one's reasons for posting might be.
We could vent and rail about "killer drivers" or how dangerous the infrastructure is, or anything along those veins. But this is a bicycle forum, not a driving or civil engineering forum. So the audience that reads these posts are cyclists, and some of us prefer to focus our efforts based on our audience. I can't change the world, but maybe I could use these events as opportunities to warn fellow cyclists (those people who actually read bicycle forum posts) about something that they can avoid or manage to their benefit. If and when truck drivers start reading my posts, I'll speak to them and my message will be very different. How about honestly advocating for once and read this one more time: "Cyclists should expect and demand safe accommodation on every public road, just as do all other users." Show me one instance of your writing where this is remotely addressed? |
@jeichelberg87, What are you advocating exactly? While I know how to slow down to avoid getting run over by a truck and would like to be able to share that knowledge with less experienced cyclists, I don't know how to expect and demand safe accommodation on every public road. Can you explain how to do that?
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Originally Posted by kingston
(Post 19090777)
@jeichelberg87, I don't understand the point you are trying to make. I don't think any laws need to change. You're the one who said we need harsher penalties for truck drivers who run over cyclists. That would require a change to the laws as far as I can tell. I also don't think harsher penalties will prevent careless driving. All the research I have seen suggests that harsher penalties have little or no impact on crime prevention. The best way to prevent these types of accidents is for the cyclists to avoid putting themselves in dangerous positions in the first place. I bet that woman didn't even know that a right hook is a thing, much less how to avoid it.
My point is this. The same laws for taking care around VULNERABLE ROAD USERS needs to include cyclists. A story involving the killer of a road worker would not remotely begin to include the side stepping from you that you exhibit in this case. I bet the truck driver knew what right hooks are and I am sure he was supposed to know! We know who was at fault here. The truck driver was at fault. He was the one cited. He should be fined heavily and I am sure he will be found liable in civil court. Same old song and dance I read here all the time... A cyclist or pedestrian gets killed and all you guys want to type about is, "Gee, we apologize for getting in your way Mr. and Mrs. Motorist! We will try to be more careful next time and not scratch your car!" Makes me sick! |
Originally Posted by jeichelberg87
(Post 19091188)
I doubt it.
How about honestly advocating for once and read this one more time: "Cyclists should expect and demand safe accommodation on every public road, just as do all other users." Show me one instance of your writing where this is remotely addressed? First off, I like to avoid preaching to the choir so no need to deliver this message on a bicycle forum. You speak of safe accommodation on public roads just like all other users. Do you mean motorists of which 32,000 or so die annually? I don't owe you anything, so your demand for "one instance...." falls on deaf ears. ------------------ We each have our ideas about how to solve problems. Some think it's about what others must do, I prefer to think about what I can do, and what I can say to my audience that might make a difference. I can't influence drivers here, but I might influence cyclists since they're the audience, so that's to whom I speak. Maybe part of the problem is that this is the A&S forum and some are more focused on advocacy while I'm more interested in helping others stay safe. IMO neither is better or worse, they just reflect a different outlook. |
Originally Posted by kingston
(Post 19091203)
@jeichelberg87, What are you advocating exactly? While I know how to slow down to avoid getting run over by a truck and would like to be able to share that knowledge with less experienced cyclists, I don't know how to expect and demand safe accommodation on every public road. Can you explain how to do that?
1) What makes you think cyclists DON'T KNOW HOW TO AVOID GETTING RUN OVER BY A TRUCK!?!? 2) Do you drive? If so, how do you operate your car around peds and cycles? A little extra care, no? How about telling all your friends and neighbors the same! Yes. For one, write your legislator to get the law changed to include cyclists and pedestrians classified as vulnerable road users. If a motorist kills a cyclist or pedestrian, they should be fined at least 10 thousand dollars. That's a start. Then stop writing apologetic pieces for motorists on a bike forum. |
Originally Posted by FBinNY
(Post 19091219)
First off, I like to avoid preaching to the choir so no need to deliver this message on a bicycle forum.
Also you speak of safe accommodation on public roads just like all other users. Do you mean motorists of which 32,000 or so die annually? We each have our ideas about how to solve problems. Some think it's about what others must do, I prefer to think about what I can do, and what I can say to my audience that might make a difference. I can't influence drivers here, but I might influence cyclists, so that's how I decide on the message. BTW - I don't owe you anything, so your demand for "one instance...." falls on deaf ears. Maybe part of the problem is that this is the A&S forum and some are more focused on the A while I'm more interested in the S. I did not demand it. I asked for it. You ain't got it. I think that speaks volumes. |
Originally Posted by jeichelberg87
(Post 19091235)
You think people here don't drive?
I did not demand it. I asked for it. You ain't got it. I think that speaks volumes. But consider, that the vast majority of my posts are about issues, which most of yours are critical of other people's posts. If you don't like what I post, don't read it, and/or post meaningful posts of your own. We can let readers of these forums read the various opinions and decide for themselves what they want to file for future reference and what to direct to the circular file. |
Originally Posted by FBinNY
(Post 19091248)
Since you're so convinced that I don't have it, why don't you deliver your own message to the general audience here, instead of criticizing me. I don't care that you don't like what I say, and I have no desire to change your opinion.
But consider, that the vast majority of my posts are about issues, which most of yours are critical of other people's posts. If you don't like what I post, don't read it, and/or post meaningful posts of your own. We can let readers of these forums read the various opinions and decide for themselves what they want to file for future reference and what to direct to the circular file. We as cyclists need to stop ***** footing and write legislators to get them to include peds and cyclists as vulnerable road users. Like I wrote, I did not demand it. I asked for it. And if your writing deserves criticism in my estimation, then I will give it. If it deserves praise, I will give that too. Gotcha covered both ways chickie baby!:thumb: |
Originally Posted by jeichelberg87
(Post 19091229)
First of all, answer two questions please?
1) What makes you think cyclists DON'T KNOW HOW TO AVOID GETTING RUN OVER BY A TRUCK!?!?
Originally Posted by jeichelberg87
(Post 19091229)
2) Do you drive?
Originally Posted by jeichelberg87
(Post 19091229)
If so, how do you operate your car around peds and cycles? A little extra care, no?
Originally Posted by jeichelberg87
(Post 19091229)
How about telling all your friends and neighbors the same!
Originally Posted by jeichelberg87
(Post 19091229)
Yes. For one, write your legislator to get the law changed to include cyclists and pedestrians classified as vulnerable road users. If a motorist kills a cyclist or pedestrian, they should be fined at least 10 thousand dollars. That's a start.
Originally Posted by jeichelberg87
(Post 19091229)
Then stop writing apologetic pieces for motorists on a bike forum.
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Regardless of legal or moral fault, almost all right turn squeeze accidents can be avoided by cyclists, with some foresight.
Rather than screaming for the truck driver's execution, it would be more productive to educate cyclists how to anticipate and avoid these accidents. While the cyclist may very well be in the right, you don't want to be dead right. |
Originally Posted by FBinNY
(Post 19091219)
You speak of safe accommodation on public roads just like all other users. |
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