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Another Chicago Cyclist killed by a truck

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Another Chicago Cyclist killed by a truck

Old 09-29-16, 10:32 AM
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Originally Posted by kingston
I think the definition of shoaling is passing another cyclist at a stoplight, so technically you can't shoal a truck. I also pass traffic on the right at stoplights and blast through before the light turns green, but I am fast and have been riding in Chicago traffic for over 30 years. I wouldn't recommend it for most people.
I took license, extending a cycling term with the context making the intent clear. It's easier than using a long phrase.

I agree that speed and good help when pulling off a stop, but wasn't advocating blasting or anything that calls for skills beyond that of the average cyclist.

I was pointing out that moving early and getting out in front can be safer than staying put, where you may not be seen, and where the smaller radius of a turning long vehicle will track into your position.

So to emphasize the point, it's not only that you're unseen, but that the rear wheels take a smaller radius when trucks turn, and will track over the position that was originally to the side of the front axle.
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Old 09-29-16, 11:35 AM
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Originally Posted by kingston
This eye-witness report says that both the truck and the cyclist were stopped at the intersection.
And other eye-witnesses (plural) say the light was green. Not turned green. And witnesses (plural) say they were driving/riding. Not stopped.

Humans see and remember things differently, particularly tragedies.
Which is why investigators interrogate witnesses - (plural).

The police issued the citation to the truck operator. So can we start learning from what *happened* here rather than learn from what *didn't* happen here?

-mr. bill
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Old 09-29-16, 11:58 AM
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The automobile industry is constantly making remarkable efforts to prevent car users to be hurt and to facilitate the operation of their products. Design of car bodies. Airbags. Reliability of components. Radars. Parking cameras.
Other industries, in simple or complex consumer goods, do the same. Telephones are recalled because one or two of them over 100 million might explode and hurt their owners.

But trucks manufacturers are still allowed to make and sell products that are not safe to operate because their drivers do not see around them. There are certainly plenty of ways to solve that problem, from cabin design to cameras through additional mirrors. But nothing gets done and cyclists continue to die.

The US being THE country of lawyers and big indemnification, how come nobody has ever managed to obtain a few 10s of millions and thereby force truck manufacturers to solve the problem ?
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Old 09-29-16, 11:58 AM
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Is there a point there @mr_bill or are you just trolling? I provided a link to a published eye-witness report of the incident, and you respond with and unsupported contradictory claim and some cryptic question that doesn't make any sense.

While you seem to want to believe that the accident was the truck driver's fault, there isn't really any evidence to support that position.
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Old 09-29-16, 12:05 PM
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Those are great points @fastturtle. In the UK they have started to install side panels on trucks to prevent cyclists from getting caught under the back wheels. Left hooks from trucks and busses are the #1 cause of cyclist fatalities in London.
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Old 09-29-16, 12:16 PM
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Originally Posted by mr_bill
So can we start learning from what *happened* here rather than learn from what *didn't* happen here?
Absolutely, and since we're bicyclists, not truck drivers, the lessons, for us here, relate to what we can do as bicyclists, not as truck drivers.
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Last edited by FBinNY; 09-29-16 at 04:20 PM.
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Old 09-29-16, 12:56 PM
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Here is a truck/bicycle accident in China with video.
https://www.bikeforums.net/advocacy-s...ing-video.html

Possibly similar to the Chicago accident.

The big problem with trucks is how far the rear wheels travel outside of the front turning radius. So of someone gets knocked over by the front of the truck, the get swallowed up by the very deadly rear.

More visible turn signals on trucks (and all vehicles) would help some.

It was also suggested in the thread above that one could add skirts to the trucks, so that it may be able to push bicycles and pedestrians away from the side of the truck, rather than letting them get run over by the rear wheels. At least such devices need more testing.
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Old 09-29-16, 01:25 PM
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The cyclist is dead right.

Nobody's saying that the cyclist broke the law. What I said was that you could not pay me enough money to do what the cyclist did because I know how difficult it is to see around a large truck, so I feel that any cyclist that intentionally stays to the right of a large truck had better be ready to move extremely fast if the truck starts to turn right.

I think a lot of people do not understand how far the rear tires on a long truck track over when they're turning. The rear tires can easily roll over a track 5 or 6 feet to the right of the front wheels when they're turning right. That puts the rear tires right over the top of most bike lanes. If you're to the right of a truck and it's turning right, you had better move somewhere else instantly. You're not wrong, but you're about to be dead.
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Old 09-29-16, 01:41 PM
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From what I read of s similar case in Portland some years ago, the truck industry is resisting the installation of sidebars (common in the UK) on commercial vehicles. Most of the cases of fatal left hooks in London have been by tipper trucks delivering and collecting materials from the many construction sites, including the very major Crossrail project. Such trucks are not required to have them AFAIK
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Old 09-29-16, 03:44 PM
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Originally Posted by kingston
The cyclist is dead


The truck driver is alive


Even if you executed the truck driver, the cyclist is still dead.

While we are waiting for the laws to change, I'll continue to advise cyclists to avoid riding through intersections on the right side of a truck.
WHAT LAWS TO CHANGE? The law does not need to change. The punishments for breaking the laws, especially when you kill someone with a vehicle, need to change.

The truck driver violated the law. He also has BLOOD ON HIS HANDS!

How about advising ****ing maniacal and lackadaisical elbow motorists to pay attention and stop killing innocent people? What about that?!

You see the sign in the story? YIELD TO BIKES! Both her and the truck driver were traveling in the same direction. She was riding where she was supposed to ride. LEGALLY! He was not driving LEGALLY!
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Old 09-29-16, 03:48 PM
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Originally Posted by CliffordK
.....
The big problem with trucks is how far the rear wheels travel outside of the front turning radius. So of someone gets knocked over by the front of the truck, the get swallowed up by the very deadly rear..
Minor correction to the wording, though not to the intended meaning---

The rear wheels track Inside the front turning radius, turning a smaller circle. If they tracked outside, the clearance to a cyclist on the inside of the turn would increase, and tight hooks wouldn't be as dangerous.
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Old 09-29-16, 03:48 PM
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Originally Posted by FBinNY
These things are more complex that.

IMO the key element is who got there first and when, plus the position of the bicyclist. These details are still not unknown to me, so I'm not assigning any blame, and am more concerned here with takeaways riders can use and learn from.

If the bicycle was there or approaching first and the driver caught up to her at or near the light, it's 100%, undeniably the driver's fault because he knew or should have known she was there and acted accordingly.

However, if the truck were stopped at the corner, and the cyclist rolled up on the right and stopped behind the cab, then she placed herself in the blind spot, and we can say whatever we want but the driver couldn't see her, and I have a hard time blaming anyone for not being psychic.

Regardless of fault, which it isn't my job to apportion, the takeaway here is to not shoal stopped long trucks, and if you do, to make sure you're seen, or have an escape route in the event the truck starts to turn.

I ride among commercial trucks every day, and (hate to admit it) shoal stopped traffic routinely. But if there's a truck at the corner, I either wait behind him, or if there's no turn signal may ride up, but only if I'm confident that I can pass him completely before the light changes. I also make it a point to get the driver's attention, and routinely call out "don't turn right".

In contrast to a post a few up, If I'm next to a truck or bus waiting at the light, I don't wait, and will even jump it slightly to get out in front as the light turns. My acceleration is batter than that of a heavy vehicle so I'm always well clear before he can begin his turn.

So the point here isn't to blame the driver or the cyclist who paid dearly for her mistake IF she made one. It's to remind anyone who cares that cyclists should not spend any time riding or stopped between the front and rear axles because they can't be seen there.
Yeah. The point is exactly that. Start HOLDING PEOPLE ACCOUNTABLE FOR KILLING PEOPLE! Jesus H Chriist. All this hand wringing and crap. Motorists are killing thousands of freaking people every year, and everybody here wants to do an in-depth analysis. This elbow killed a woman. It was his damned fault!
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Old 09-29-16, 03:51 PM
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Originally Posted by FBinNY

Absolutely, and since we're bicyclists, not truck drivers, the lessons, for us here, relate to what we can do as bicyclists, not as truck drivers.
As bicyclists, we need to get out there and ride. And when we see senseless bull**** like this, DEMAND MORE SEVERE PENALTIES!!!

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Old 09-29-16, 03:54 PM
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Originally Posted by jeichelberg87
Yeah. The point is exactly that. Start HOLDING PEOPLE ACCOUNTABLE FOR KILLING PEOPLE! Jesus H Chriist. All this hand wringing and crap. Motorists are killing thousands of freaking people every year, and everybody here wants to do an in-depth analysis. This elbow killed a woman. It was his damned fault!
I suppose it depends on what one's reasons for posting might be.

We could vent and rail about "killer drivers" or how dangerous the infrastructure is, or anything along those veins.

But this is a bicycle forum, not a driving or civil engineering forum. So the audience that reads these posts are cyclists, and some of us prefer to focus our efforts based on our audience. I can't change the world, but maybe I could use these events as opportunities to warn fellow cyclists (those people who actually read bicycle forum posts) about something that they can avoid or manage to their benefit.

If and when truck drivers start reading my posts, I'll speak to them and my message will be very different.
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Old 09-29-16, 04:05 PM
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@jeichelberg87, I don't understand the point you are trying to make. I don't think any laws need to change. You're the one who said we need harsher penalties for truck drivers who run over cyclists. That would require a change to the laws as far as I can tell. I also don't think harsher penalties will prevent careless driving. All the research I have seen suggests that harsher penalties have little or no impact on crime prevention. The best way to prevent these types of accidents is for the cyclists to avoid putting themselves in dangerous positions in the first place. I bet that woman didn't even know that a right hook is a thing, much less how to avoid it.
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Old 09-29-16, 04:53 PM
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Did the trucker pass the cyclist? Were turn signas on? Those things were the responsibility of the trucker.

If the trucker knew they were going to turn, and failed to indicate that... the trucker was fully responsible.
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Old 09-29-16, 05:02 PM
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Originally Posted by genec

If the trucker knew they were going to turn, and failed to indicate that... the trucker was fully responsible.
All true, yet none of it relevant here.

We don't know the facts, nor will of us ever serve on a jury on this case (civil or criminal), nor are any of us ever likely to serve on any jury on a case involving a bicycle v. motor vehicle collision with injury or death. (because we'd be disqualified through voir dire)

So, if we're interested in change, we might direct our attention to those things that we can control and/or change. namely our own actions, and those whom we might influence.

This isn't to say, we shouldn't try to improve things in the big picture, just that we should talk to those who are listening, and in a position to do something.
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Old 09-29-16, 05:03 PM
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Originally Posted by genec
Did the trucker pass the cyclist? Were turn signas on?
We covered that earlier today
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Old 09-29-16, 05:05 PM
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Definitely try to avoid being in that situation, but sometimes it's not up to you. The trucks are faster and may catch and pass you when you didn't expect, then make a quick right turn in front of you. A mirror may help, though not always.
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Old 09-29-16, 05:09 PM
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Originally Posted by kingston
We covered that earlier today
Hmmmm. "Earlier today" no one mentioned turn signals or the intentions of the driver.
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Old 09-29-16, 05:13 PM
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Originally Posted by genec
Hmmmm. "Earlier today" no one mentioned turn signals or the intentions of the driver.
none of us were there or could possibly know the intentions of the driver even if we were
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Old 09-29-16, 05:19 PM
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Originally Posted by kingston
We covered that earlier today
It says nothing about turn signals, or timing with when the bike and truck arrived next to each other.

When approaching an intersection, I try to look for stopped vehicles with turn signals on. And never pass to the right of a vehicle that is signalling unless I know:
  1. The vehicle is stopping for me.
  2. I can get 100% past the vehicle with enough space in front to be visible.
  3. There are a few cars ahead that aren't signalling that I believe I can also pass.
And, when stopped next to a vehicle, I often try to get a little bit ahead of them (to a visible spot) and look back for turn signals. Of course trucks can have problems seeing anything to the right of them.

One of the problems is that turn signals whether on or off are not always visible to people to the side of the turning vehicle, an issue that DOT needs to seriously look at. There is work on improving signal visibility, but it certainly isn't universal. So, a person might be standing next to a truck that is signalling, and not be able to see the signals.

I've been around trucks enough to know that the rear wheels don't follow the front. Semi Trucks are the worst, but apparently little bobtail trucks are also problematic. When this woman realized the truck was turning, did she take evasive actions? How much? And, how quickly did the truck accelerate for the turn?
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Old 09-29-16, 05:26 PM
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Originally Posted by vol
Definitely try to avoid being in that situation, but sometimes it's not up to you. The trucks are faster and may catch and pass you when you didn't expect, then make a quick right turn in front of you. A mirror may help, though not always.
So you're saying that after the cyclist enters the intersection, a truck comes up on the left, passes, then turns right in front of the cyclist and runs him/her over?

I agree in that situation there's pretty much nothing the cyclist could do. In real life the cyclist can see if there's a truck on their left as they approach the intersection and either speed up to get ahead of the truck or slow down to avoid the potential right hook as @FBinNY has already explained.
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Old 09-29-16, 07:42 PM
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Originally Posted by kingston
Is there a point there @mr_bill or are you just trolling? I provided a link to a published eye-witness report of the incident, and you respond with and unsupported contradictory claim and some cryptic question that doesn't make any sense.

While you seem to want to believe that the accident was the truck driver's fault, there isn't really any evidence to support that position.
Jesus! Yes there is. Stop acting like an elbow! The truck driver was cited!
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Old 09-29-16, 07:48 PM
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Originally Posted by FBinNY
I suppose it depends on what one's reasons for posting might be.

We could vent and rail about "killer drivers" or how dangerous the infrastructure is, or anything along those veins.

But this is a bicycle forum, not a driving or civil engineering forum. So the audience that reads these posts are cyclists, and some of us prefer to focus our efforts based on our audience. I can't change the world, but maybe I could use these events as opportunities to warn fellow cyclists (those people who actually read bicycle forum posts) about something that they can avoid or manage to their benefit.

If and when truck drivers start reading my posts, I'll speak to them and my message will be very different.
I doubt it.

How about honestly advocating for once and read this one more time:

"Cyclists should expect and demand safe accommodation on every public road, just as do all other users."

Show me one instance of your writing where this is remotely addressed?
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