FBinNY 

I guess I'm going to learn to add smileys so folks know when I'm having some fun.

As far as spell check goes, I don't use it, but sometimes I type, and other times let Dragon do it for me.

As far as "Dude" goes, "disdain" may imply more than is the case. I suspect that we're just more used to other forms of address. Or maybe, in our fast paced world we just jump in with what's on our mind, and figure that people know we're talking to them.

Chris0516

Some people leave their bucket of common sense, by the trash can. When they head out the door.

jeichelberg87

If any are under the impression specious arguments don't get time in court or sometimes become valid, well...

Be nice ignoring the case of the English lady....

As far as dictating how I ride? Nope. I ride to take in all sounds. Not because of fear. Because of enjoyment.

wphamilton

Ah ok, I was unsure if I should say "I got your buds right here" - I'm not sure what that means but it makes NY'res mad sometimes.

Leave the smileys off, keep'm guessing.

Camilo

Way to stay on topic

You might be surprised to know that your (or my or anyone's) opinion of "common sense" (1) isn't necessarily true and (2) likely not "common" - universally shared - anyway.

Common sense is simply an opinion and no substitute for actual thoughtful analysis. With respect to the topic at hand, my opinion is that "common sense" against their use is just reflective of people who haven't ridden with ear buds and/or haven't given unbiased thought to the actual risks. It has no basis in objective fact that I can find - which is the topic at hand.

But I'm sure that those who don't use them for "safety" reasons really do feel safer and might actually be safer because they might actually use hearing to ride safer rather than using an adequately high degree of visual and situational vigilance.

Since I've found that listening to music through ear buds, at the level I listen at doesn't make my riding less safe for various reasons, I see no harm in doing it. For what it's worth, I can actually hear horns honking, sirens, people yelling, and other normal sounds of riding in the world. So according to actual standards that we can actually point to (as opposed to opinions and "common sense"), I meet those standards.

Translation: I have no idea what the settlement would have been.

Now you're just embarrassing yourself.

jeichelberg87

Just opinion to which you are certainly entitled.

I know what I got for a settlement and I know what a lawyer would try to do with the case had I been wearing ear buds. I was and will be (God forbid it happens again) happy ty of not offer the opportunity.

Hey, my sense of embarrassment is not yours. If I embarrass you, feel free to place me on ignore.

Better yet, stop reading, put on ear buds, slap on War and Peace and go ride your bike. Dress warm!

Chris0516

Yes, I know. Common sense is subjective. One person's skill level. Is not the same level of another person.

FBinNY 

No fair thinking this through intelligently and logically.
Shame on you!

Trueblood

There are environmental factors. If you are in a mainly rural area, sure, you can hear a car horn with ear buds on. What happens if you are in a highly dense city, where there is a general cacophony of vehicle horns at every intersection and where three foot rules are laughable? Do ear buds affect your sensory ability to sort out what is a threat and what isn't, what is close and what is very very close? This would tie in to threads regarding 'taking the lane' vs slotting. Many city cyclists have to do both. When slotting, what happens when a cyclist looks quickly to see what the horn or other threat is, just as someone opens their parked car door? Not sure one would hear the opening car door in time to avoid it with ear buds on. City riding can be extremely challenging - having to process and gauge lots of incoming information in a split second, judging distances, lights, pedestrians, close traffic, timing.

In quieter settings, if you don't look, sure, you can blame the 'not looking' on a collision. Would the ability to hear the whoosh of an approaching vehicle potentially affect the outcome? And with the example of the hearing impaired, I would think they look much more in general than someone who is not impaired. It is often the case with people who lose one sense, that their remaining senses become extremely keen.

MMACH 5

Such a shame that deaf people can't ride safely.

Hopefully lawmakers will get behind your "common sense" and make it illegal for deaf people to ride bicycles.

Chris0516

You missed the point. While hearing is one of the senses, and the deaf/hard of hearing can't do anything about it. The point is, in terms of those with no hearing problems. Why, intentionally, subtract hearing. Due to boredom, or to cut out ambient noise. Ambient noise would be anything that doesn't have a direct and/or immediate affect on a person on a bike.

MMACH 5

You quoted and clearly agreed with a post that stated "You simply need all your senses to ride safely period!!!!!!!!!!!"

Now you are backtracking. So you only need ALL of your senses if you can help it. If you can't do anything about it, then you don't.

Please explain how hearing is required to operate a vehicle in a safe manner.

FBinNY 

Sorry, Chris, Nobody is missing the point except maybe you.

The argument against ear buds when riding rests on two shaky legs.

1- the assumption that they block of camouflage ambient noise to a significant extent, and/or that listening to music while riding is overly distracting.

The second can't factor much, since drivers have been listening to music while driving for half a century, and while there's probably some distraction, nobody has ever considered it to be enough to worry about. As for the first, that depends on the type of device and the volume the user turns it up to. Many people report that they can wear earbuds and still hear what's going on around them, and based on only limited use on airplanes, I'm willing to take their word.

2- the second consideration is just how important outside sound is to a cyclist's safety. This is tricky because there's no evidence, and most of the debate turns on an assumption. For my part, I do use sound as a clue, but don't depend on it. For example I may hear a truck approaching, but I simply say to myself "truck passing" and don't do anything, because the knowledge doesn't help any. I don't know if he's going to hit me or not, so all I can do is continue on the line I've been riding. The issue of hearing a horn is likewise pointless, since IME there's near zero correlation of a horn and impending collision.

The few instances, where I absently venture into a critically dangerous situation and a horn can warn me off in time, are extremely rare (yes, they do happen), and best avoided in the first place.

So, IMO it's not about earbuds per se, but about (I hare to say it) common sense, to use them intelligently, which certainly seems possible.

Trueblood

We keep coming back to - 'drivers listen to music all the time', but I must say, cars are much more visible to each other, and as such, don't suffer the same symptoms (or consequences) of not seeing/being seen, that bicycles do.

As mentioned before, it depends on your environment. I bicycle in Manhattan, and I would say that I frequently depend upon sound as a clue.

I am sure deaf people ride safely, but I bet they are used to using their other available senses to a greater degree. They probably look more, even when they don't 'have to'.

YRMV depending upon where you live, but if you are not used to looking more because you have relied on all of your senses working together, and then one day decide to pop on ear buds, and do not compensate for the fact that you have compromised one of your senses, I think it would contribute to danger. What level of compensation in enough?

wphamilton

You don't need any level of compensation, because it doesn't necessarily compromise hearing any nontrivial amount. As people have said, you can listen to music and still hear traffic noises.

You make some interesting points, such as hearing car doors opening gives you time to look back, and cyclist's ear buds making them less visible or more vulnerable to drivers who don't see them, but your reasoning isn't quite clear.

Trueblood

Well, I disagree. As I said, I know it varies by environment, but cycling down Seventh Avenue should make the reasoning clear in fairly short order.

italktocats

ill check with my colleagues who are in the traffic law department but as far as i know this NEVER came up, not even in a case let alone in court gimme a week.. on the pedalbike, if i wont be covering my ears ill have an earinfection in a day plus a killer headache from the wind noises, i dont "cruise around" i go places, have fun having a conversation in a car if the other guy sticks in his head out of the window on the highway WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOSH! on the motorbike i have custom plugs and noiseproof helmet, you wanna have a convo with me on the bike?

wphamilton

I doubt that it's any busier than Windward that I ride twice every day.

Trueblood

Wow, ok, 7th runs downtown through Times Square - here is a live web cam - Times Square Cams - EarthCam

Traffic backs up for 10 blocks north and south of 42nd street. On an average day, 300,000 pedestrians walk through it, 460,000 on busy days. That's just pedestrians, then there are the buses and taxi's. I tend to stay close to buses - sure they can kill you, but they don't make sudden moves the way cabs do. 7th doesn't get much friendlier further south near Penn Station either.

I know the Atlanta metro region has terrible traffic, but....

wphamilton

Backed up traffic, it's nice when it's slow like that isn't it? Mine runs to 45-65 mph, constant stream. That's what I call busy.

Currmudge

A few points, possibly slanted to my locale:

1. The case could be made locally that it's against the law -- although, enforcement of laws that do not directly threaten to spill blood is pretty lax.
2. Define "ear buds"; are they the soft-tip silicone inserts that pretty much block the ear canal, or more generic? As a part-time ear-budder (loop over the ear to hold speaker in the ear, next to no ambient sound blockage other than conversation), it makes a difference. I still have a good 4-6 seconds of aural warning for traffic approaching behind me.
3. What difference does it make compared to the crowd that thumps, bumps, and booms down the street, so loud you can hear them coming two blocks away?
4. Deaf riders have not been shown to be more AT risk or OF A risk.

Just 2c......

Leisesturm

You know... I am wondering just how many truly deaf young adults, the kind that might actually take up vehicular cycling, there actually are. I'm putting some serious money down on the premise that the majority of deaf people stay very far away from bicycles, and the number that would take a bicycle out in urban traffic... I don't know... a few dozen... in hundreds of thousands... and, yes, you betcha they have learned to look. They are not distracted by Shania Twain cooing in their left ear. They are 100% focused on the Good Work of staying in one piece. Or they wind up featured on the Nightly News.

You CAN ride, and ride for years, rocking out to tunes, on each and every ride, just like you can ride Ninja, or Salmon or Scofflaw, or several other things that people say you shouldn't do. I'm not going to tell anyone they can't. But if you get nailed, know that someone is going to bring up the fact that you were doing whatever it is that the general consensus (common sense) says you shouldn't. You know and I know that it really doesn't amount to a hill of high beans. I am not the one you need to convince. Good luck.

Chris0516

You are missing the point. If you would not want a motorist wearing ear buds in traffic. Then why should you wear them in traffic. If you feel that you should be allowed to wear them in traffic. Then maybe motorists' should be allowed to wear them too.

Trueblood

Again, I disagree - https://www.google.com/maps/@34.0881...7i13312!8i6656

Hokiedad4

There is a HUGE variety of ear buds. There are high quality noise canceling and noise reduction ear buds, and cheap-ass ear buds that allow you to hear pretty much anything, e.g., Apple. From a practical point of view, I have no problem with a cyclist or walker or runner, or even a driver, wearing cheap-ass ear buds. I wear them when I walk and have no trouble hearing my environment. On the other hand, $500 noise canceling or noise reduction ear buds are best left home.