rydabent

And sadly they are the ones that you read about in the paper that have been in an accident.

The is no logic in doing away with common sense.

rydabent

Also as I have posted many times, look what happens when there is a bike/car collision. In a far too many times the car drivers lawyer convinces the jury that the cyclist was at fault. The lawyer will jump on the fact that a cyclist wasnt wearing a helmet, or in the case of a recumbent wasnt flying a flag. If the lawyer can prove the cyclist couldnt hear because he was wearing ear buds, again he will say the cyclist was at fault, or at a minimum was partially at fault.

So even just for legal reasons not wearing ear buds show common sense and logic. But then there are a small percentage of cyclist that think they are invincible. Again sadly they are the ones that are usually in the paper described as "victims"!!!!!!!!!!!

reppans

Motor vehicles are very different than bicycles.

The greater speed capability and resulting wind noise alone will drive motorists toward well insulated cabins and nice stereo systems, and motorcyclists toward sound deadening helmets and use of earplugs. The speed of motor vehicles also puts the VAST majority of the risk up front in the operator field of view. Except for the emergency vehicle with sirens blaring, there's virtually no way a motorist can hear danger approaching from behind, if only due to wind noise.

A bicycle is nearly the opposite - slow enough so that wind noise is generally not a factor, and the majority of the bicyclist's risk are behind him, as car after car need to pass. I'm also a life-long motorcyclist and still find road bicycling rather disconcerting in that it is much more reliant upon the other guy paying attention, and doing the right thing.

A bicyclist doesn't *need* to hear or see the risks coming up behind him, he can just cross his fingers and hope the passing cars do the right thing. But if there's a chance of just a little additional control, if only to know when to ditch off the side of the road, provided by good hearing and rearview mirror, then I'll take it.

Riding my bicycle on my backroad routes, I using my unobstructed hearing to warn me of approaching cars, gauge their speed/attitude, and when to shift to mirror monitoring. On a motorcycle, I wear sound isolating earbuds with music (and radar detection) piped in.

wphamilton

I'm more interested in your hearing car doors opening in time to look back. How does that work? You hear the handle click a hundred feet ahead, check your six and merge with traffic? Which you wouldn't have time for if you saw it?

njkayaker

Even without playing music, you can't hear much in a car.

On a bicycle, hearing provides some of the benefits a mirror does. If a car is going to run you over, neither is probably going to do much for you. Plus hearing might alert you to something going on not where you are looking.

Trueblood

Is that a not so subtle way of changing the immediate topic? Sure, absolutely, you hear the click of doors opening with a car less than two feet on your left and while attempting to leave a safe distance from the parked cars on your right. No mention made of merging, I am speaking of close in traffic. I don't see any parked cars to deal with at all on Windward.

For me, it is a tough sell to maintain that Windward Parkway is busier than Times Square, not just in terms of traffic, but absolutely with pedestrians, lights, erratic cabs, city buses, etc.

wphamilton

No, google maps photos don't tell you much about traffic (the Maps photo of 7th Avenue is pretty light traffic as well) so that's not very interesting. It doesn't look much different from any large inner city street in fact. During your backed up traffic, how many cars per second pass you in the immediate adjacent lane - that's what you're listening for isn't it? The approaching vehicles that might have some effect on you?

How do you hear car doors opening? How does that help us if not for merging? You did say that you had time to look back, and you wouldn't have had time if you hadn't heard it. It sounds important for people who might wear earbuds, even if they don't ride on 7th Ave. So explain it to all of the rubes.

bobwysiwyg

I agree. I had concerns about noise cancelling earbuds but was not interested in bar speakers. I tried Mpow Swift bluetooth ear buds, less than $20. They work just fine and I can't detect any ambient sound difference whether I'm wearing them or not.

Trueblood

Sorry, I don't know what you mean by rubes. Typically you either have to take the lane or ride in a narrow corridor between moving traffic and parked cars. Pedestrians step out from between parked cars. There are bike lanes on some avenues, but they are used by pedestrians as well. When the light is red, and you are slotting up the narrow lane, the car door can open from either a parked car or in the adjacent lane. Yeah, you can hear a car door open. There is not merging per se, just riding in the same direction as traffic. There are many times where I dare not look back because of what might happen in front of me.

Careful with your language, born in SC, relatives in Atlanta, Augusta, low country of NC and SC.

wphamilton

You said that anyone riding on 7TH Avenue in NY would quickly learn, and you're telling me that traffic on Windward Pkwy is too rural for me to understand. To put it bluntly, you're calling us all rubes. I think that you're being provincial, but I don't mind giving you a chance to explain yourself. 7th Avenue is nothing special except for a lot of pedestrians. And if your challenge is riding by stopped cars, that's pretty enviable from the perspective of safety.

Obviously, hearing car doors opening way out ahead of you is not a factor. If you're not watching, you're going to get doored.

Trueblood

High speed suburban parkway vs dense inner city riding. Let's just leave it as two very different skill sets, apples and oranges, and obviously arguable as to which is more demanding. Could set up a poll if you want to pursue it.

The word rube is yours. Having grown up in the burbs and moved to the city, I wouldn't use it.

dedhed

Are these dangerous?

Sentry HM9MG 9mm Bullet Earbuds With Mic Gold | Earbuds | Headphones | Portable Electronics | Electronics | Other | Toolfetch

Bmach

Now that after 86 responses and not any proof, let me ask another question of those that are totally against earbuds.

Do wear anything over your ears when you ride in the cold or do you tough it out?

mr_bill

Are you aware of *ANY* jurisdiction that regulates weathergear covering ears while driving or bicycling?

-mr. bill

Nycycle

So true.

Nycycle

I have a skull cap that covers my ears, I don't think it interferes with my hearing, with my one good ear.

bulldog1935

the title of this thread is an oxymoron.

I-Like-To-Bike

Indeed, you have posted your imagined fabricated court cases on this subject many times. Do you think that your fables become fact with constant repetition?

DrIsotope

Yesterday, I rode with earbuds in for about two hours-- and not just any earbuds, but my Klipsch S4i with Comply foam tips-- they reduce ambient noise by over 25dB without any music being on. And guess what? I could still hear cars just fine, wind noise was reduced significantly, and those two episodes of This American Life really got me through the monotony of doing neighborhood laps.

On the other hand, about two weeks ago I rode in 25º weather, and used my helmet's winter liner for the first time. Put on the lightweight balaclava, then the lined helmet, and you know, I couldn't hear much of anything. Only wind noise seeped in, and gave the effect of a white noise machine. I couldn't even hear my hub freewheeling. Came out of that unscathed too, if you can believe it.

But I have certainly noticed that when cross-referencing threads like this one, and threads like "how many miles did you ride in XX amount of time," there is a high degree of inverse proportion-- the less miles ridden, the greater the ire.

Milton Keynes

They are if something hits the primer.

phoebeisis

My hearing is poor-65 yo-too much shooting-too many motorcycles-too much age
In any case I won't quit riding just because my hearing is crummy.
I can't localize sound very well-heck hardly at all
My guess is ear buds increase risk no more than my age-crummy hearing not "great" sight(no depth of field to speak of)
If I'm allowed to ride- unregulated-
and other SEVERELY hearing impaired folks are allowed to ride
no fair reason to regulate riding in ear plugged people

Yes I suspect my risk is increased because of my hearing sight age
but it is mostly MY RISK-so who cares

Leisesturm

You are continuing to miss a key point of the counter-argument. Yourself and other HOH people that ride know that you have a hearing liability. Moreover you are not likely to be distracted by the hearing loss. You are not being entertained by the hearing loss. AND there is a reason that hearing protection is always made in bright, fluorescent colors! Manufacturers of hearing suppressors WANT people that are interacting with someone using their equipment that that individual may not respond properly to auditory warnings or signals! Absolutely you can ride with ear buds or headphones, and I have no comment about the practice. I personally wouldn't do it. I am reminded with every ride how much information my ears supply me. I don't take it for granted. Full disclosure: my vision is severely limited in both acuity and visual field. It has always been thus. I wouldn't know what 20/20 vision and full visual field can allow. But it does not seem prudent when one sense is so severely compromised to willfully attenuate another.

A lot of this argument is like the argument over which is better, front wheel drive or rear wheel drive. I've had both. For most of the year it is a non-issue which is better. Until it snows. I don't think wearing earbuds or noise-cancelling headphones is a problem until, or if, there is an accident. I think it would be a real mistake to insist like a minority of posters insist, that having earbuds in your ears at the time of your involvement in a crash would fail to be noticed, and the observation would also be a non-issue in aftermath proceedings. Thankfully, I don't expect to ever have to find out through actual experience if I am right or not in my suspicions.

phoebeisis

Leisesturm
I'm not missing the point
My point wasn't that their risk wasn't increased (of course it is)
my point was (and it is a a rank guess ) that being an old deaf blind gimp
is about as risky as being a young fool riding a bike in traffic whle listening to music
which people have been allowed to do in cars-FOREVER

I'm not regulated restricted
car drivers listening to the radio-aren't regulated- restricted
why should young fools with ear buds be restricted

Of course their risk is increased-
but it is well down my list of concerns
Heck with fools texting while driving-likely to kill me-(I was hit by one 15 months ago)
why would anyone worry about fools riding with ear buds

SorrySayAgain

I'm a deaf cyclist so let me throw my two bob in.

Like most deaf people, I am not 100% stone deaf. Most of us have some residual hearing, to what degree depends on the person.
For me, I have no hearing in the range of human speech, but with hearing aids I can hear high-pitched and low-pitched noises extremely well.
Which makes the sounds of traffic (car engines, brake screeches, sirens, etc) completely overwhelming for me.

When I ride my bike, I play music via Bluetooth to my hearing aids, because otherwise I can't handle traffic noises.

Does this make me a liability on the road because I am using music to help me focus and tune out the distractions? No, because without it I can't ride.

I'm honestly a little surprised that nobody has brought up how most car drivers spend their time being audibly distracted, be it by conversation with a passenger, the radio, a crying baby, a dog, anything.
Most car drivers spend their time with their ears doing other stuff, not using them to focus.

It's a fact that many surgeons play music during operations to help them focus and be 'in the zone'. Why shouldn't the same be true of cyclists?

I've been in minor accidents, typically from a car driver reversing out of a parking space or driveway at a hundred miles an hour.
Never has my hearing (or lack thereof) been used against me, and I was honest about listening to music. I was told that it was my right to do so, and that I was not at fault by an irresponsible driver reversing recklessly.
I'm from Australia, so I didn't need to deal with an insurance agency(went through the cops and local court to get my bike fixed as minor medical expenses are covered by the Healthcare system), and I'm aware laws are different from place to place, but it shows that it does happen that music is permitted.

When I said I was listening to music, they jumped on it, but it was overruled on the grounds of 'you've never listened to the radio while driving?' so there's legal precedent.

linberl

I received some Plantronic Backbeat FIT earbuds for Xmas. They do not go into the ear canal and they allow 100% of ambient noise to pass through. They even have limited volume. I did a test riding around on city streets and I had zero difference in noise transmission from cars and other sounds with or without them. What I did notice, though, was that I was sweeping the road more visually instead of riding with my eyes fixed ahead. So in my case, I'd say the earbuds actually improved my riding awareness because I was concerned I might not hear something so I was uber alert, lol. My tendency to zone out when I ride was minimized by having the background music which kept me more aware and "present". Just my experience...