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Old 01-18-17, 09:43 PM   #101
I-Like-To-Bike
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Sorry that we broke the rules here. Choosing to run a publicly owned seasonal bike share service that actually pays its way.
We make our own rules
Another seasonal shared ride service for occasional use, and just as practical for daily transportation purposes:
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Old 01-18-17, 09:57 PM   #102
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Another seasonal shared ride service for occasional use,....
It's really nice the way you stay in character.

I gather you don't like bikeshare programs, for whatever reason. But each time one of your strawmen falls, you just put up another one, until you reach the point of being simply ridiculous.

Why can't you simply let it go? It's nearly 1,000 miles from Montreal to Burlington, so I doubt that folks there care what your objections might be. In any case, if you don't like their bike share program, you're free not to use it should you visit.
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Old 01-18-17, 11:01 PM   #103
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Why can't you simply let it go?
Why don't you?

Promoting/selling a seasonal recreational ride as a practical transportation alternative for more than a relative handful of people, especially for commuters is downright foolish. For those relative few who can make use of the limited availability and/or limited practicability (weather, season, bike corrals at origin and destinations, etc.) wonderful, for everybody else a big darn YAWN.
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Old 01-19-17, 06:46 AM   #104
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...relative handful of people...
How's your "research" going? Got anything to back up your WAG?

Speaking on seasonal transportation - Portland's new Mayor.

ps. Washington DC's Capital Bikeshare is year round.

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Old 01-19-17, 06:56 AM   #105
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Why don't you?

Promoting/selling a seasonal recreational ride as a practical transportation alternative for more than a relative handful of people, especially for commuters is downright foolish. For those relative few who can make use of the limited availability and/or limited practicability (weather, season, bike corrals at origin and destinations, etc.) wonderful, for everybody else a big darn YAWN.
As of 2014, the "relative handful" of people using Bixi in Montreal was 3,214,867. Ridership has increased since then
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Old 01-19-17, 07:37 AM   #106
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As of 2014, the "relative handful" of people using Bixi in Montreal was 3,214,867. Ridership has increased since then
The unpleasable one will not be pleased.

You quoted rides. That's bad, because, well, that's another one of his rules.

In 2015, there were a "relative handful" of Bixi members - 38,000.
(Someone may have VERY BIG hands.)

According to Statistics Canada, in 2006 (sorry, latest numbers I could find, 2016 census not out yet) 27,400 people in Montreal commute by bicycle.

When I'm in Montreal, I don't hire a Bixi - I bring my own bike. But I noticed that while I was out and about, lots of people commute by bicycle - many by *gasp* Bixi bikes.

Maybe someone else should get out and about more. But in the meantime, waiting for his "research" into the matter.

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Old 01-19-17, 07:57 AM   #107
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ps. Chicago's Divvy operates year round.

-mr. bill

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Old 01-19-17, 12:21 PM   #108
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In 2015, there were a "relative handful" of Bixi members - 38,000.

According to Statistics Canada, in 2006 (sorry, latest numbers I could find, 2016 census not out yet) 27,400 people in Montreal commute by bicycle.
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As of 2014, the "relative handful" of people using Bixi in Montreal was 3,214,867. Ridership has increased since then
Yeah, sure - Whatever.

BTW, those who do not hibernate in Montreal during the winter months and seek to commute (or get anywhere) using the local bike share system will not be consoled by bike share systems operating in Chicago, Washington (D.C. or state) or Portland.
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Old 01-19-17, 01:01 PM   #109
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Yeah, sure - Whatever.

BTW, those who do not hibernate in Montreal during the winter months and seek to commute (or get anywhere) using the local bike share system will not be consoled....
Vous pouvez communiquer avec Denis Coderre, maire de Montréal, pour exprimer votre extrême inconsolabilité.

LIBERTÉ, ÉGALITÉ, CYCLISTÉ OU LA MORT

Avez-vous fait des progrès dans votre "recherche?"

ps. While you are at it, contact this guy, for the evildoers in Madison have shuttered BCycle for the winter.

-mr. bill

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Old 01-19-17, 01:17 PM   #110
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ps. Independence Pass is closed for the season, cutting off a direct and popular cycling route between Aspen and Denver.

-mr. bill

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Old 01-19-17, 06:55 PM   #111
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Old 01-19-17, 09:51 PM   #112
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Old 01-20-17, 06:25 AM   #113
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Capital Bikeshare Shutting Down....

How's your "research" going?

-mr. bill
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Old 01-20-17, 11:39 AM   #114
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In the case of Seattle, the system probably failed for a number of reasons besides the helmet question.
Probably, but I wonder how a bike share program could ever not fail with a mandatory helmet law. I have little and very irrelevant experience cycling with a helmet but how does that work. Imo a bikeshare program means you can just grab a share bike if you see one and ride where you want to go without worry. The spontaneity it allows for seems it's greatest asset. If you're preparing for your travel by bringing a helmet, why not get your own bike?
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Old 01-20-17, 12:10 PM   #115
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Probably, but I wonder how a bike share program could ever not fail with a mandatory helmet law. .....
I agree, and said so way back when in this thread.

from my post (no.4) here ----

.....Also, if Seattle has any hopes of having a share program that works, they'll need to rethink the helmet law. As it stands, that law is probably keeping cyclists safer mainly by keeping them off their bikes.

The later post which you reference was intended to make it clear that there's usually more than one reason why things fail, and to counter the notion that the helmet law was the ONLY reason the program failed, and changing it would have magically saved the program.

I keep saying this so often that I feel like a broken record --- Bikeshare is about convenience more than anything else. If it's seen as the fastest way to get from point A to point B, people will use it. If it isn't faster and easier than the alternatives then they won't.

So success depends on bikeshare being as easy as possible, AND other alternatives being pretty bad.
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Old 01-20-17, 12:54 PM   #116
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Probably, but I wonder how a bike share program could ever not fail with a mandatory helmet law. I have little and very irrelevant experience cycling with a helmet but how does that work. Imo a bikeshare program means you can just grab a share bike if you see one and ride where you want to go without worry. The spontaneity it allows for seems it's greatest asset. If you're preparing for your travel by bringing a helmet, why not get your own bike?
For tourists and business travelers:

Biking and walking are often by far the best way to really *see* a city.

Bringing your own bike is MUCH more involved than packing a helmet and messenger bag.

Getting a rental bike while traveling is often problematic at best. For example, in South Korea, *all* of the LBS that were renting bikes *REQUIRED* tourists to surrender their passport as a deposit. Uh, not gonna happen. In England, the LBS were closed on Sunday. Ooops.

That said, I've rented bikes on the road. When it works out, it works out. Often get a nicer bike and go places I probably (no definitely) wouldn't consider otherwise.


But with bikeshare, download an app before the trip or while on wifi at the hotel, register, pack your helmet and messenger back, purchase a pass, and you are set to go lots of places. 24/7/(365, usually).


Frankfurt even has a dockless bikeshare system - a bit like Geocaching but with caches of bikes. Grab a bike, ride several K to where you think you want to go. See something interesting and unexpected along your way? "Dock" the dockless bike with the dutch-style electronic rear wheel lock, walk for a while, and then grab another dockless bike when want to continue on riding.

(It did have the Geocaching problem - where the GPS in the bike indicated it was right *here*, but reality it was a couple hundred meters away. But they also had many "stations" - mostly on sidewalks - which were just a sign that this was a place you could leave the bike. There was a discount for leaving the bikes grouped near a sign.)


For commuters:

The bike-train dilemma at rush hour is often a problem. MANY transit systems don't allow bikes on peak trains, though some allow folding bikes. (Folding bikes, for those who like them *AND* who can afford them, are an option. But lets be honest, folding bikes are still a niche.) And unless you have a secure location to leave your bike for the day, there is the risk of theft or vandalism.

Bikeshare is *one* solution to these dilemmas. You don't ever need to bring the bike with you on the train. Well designed *MULTI* *MODAL* systems have bikes close to the stations. You pick up and drop off the train stations and at stations near your final destination.

Once docked, theft is not *your* worry anymore, and frankly, not much of a worry anyway. (There's not much of a black market for stolen bikeshare bikes, kind of like there is not much a black market for stolen bike helmets) - the parts are often semi-custom for that particular line of bikeshare bikes, so the "value" such as it is scrap metal value - and even there, not many metal recyclers will no-questions-asked take a bikeshare bike. Contrast that with the theft problems with Brooks Saddles!


For business travelers not staying in the heart of a city, you find yourself OFTEN facing some of these commuting issues. Rent the bike near where you sleep, and you can't always get the bike on the train. Rent a bike at a LBS in the city, and you MUST get back to LBS before it closes. The *OPPOSITE* of spontaneous.


Finally, lots of people make their own choices about helmets. Packing a helmet and messenger bag does not stifle my "spontaneity" at all. And other folks, who always or usually wear a helmet while riding their own bikes, may not bother with them while riding on a bikeshare. Other folks never wear helmets. I chose to ride with a helmet in Frankfurt, my colleagues chose not to. (But I was the only one who got teased.)

-mr. bill
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Old 01-20-17, 01:14 PM   #117
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I agree, and said so way back when in this thread.

from my post (no.4) here ----

.....Also, if Seattle has any hopes of having a share program that works, they'll need to rethink the helmet law. As it stands, that law is probably keeping cyclists safer mainly by keeping them off their bikes.

The later post which you reference was intended to make it clear that there's usually more than one reason why things fail, and to counter the notion that the helmet law was the ONLY reason the program failed, and changing it would have magically saved the program.

I keep saying this so often that I feel like a broken record --- Bikeshare is about convenience more than anything else. If it's seen as the fastest way to get from point A to point B, people will use it. If it isn't faster and easier than the alternatives then they won't.

So success depends on bikeshare being as easy as possible, AND other alternatives being pretty bad.
Maybe other reasons only become relevant without the mandatory helmets. I wonder whether the alternatives have to be really bad, it's still cycling, if the weather is nice it beats a lot of alternatives through it's own strength.
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Old 01-20-17, 02:07 PM   #118
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.... I wonder whether the alternatives have to be really bad, it's still cycling, if the weather is nice it beats a lot of alternatives through it's own strength.
You've touched on one of the problems with bike share programs.

There's a certain Field of Dreams aspect to bikeshare initiatives. Their proponents tend to be bicyclists, or at least believers that increased use of bicycles in downtown areas can improve city life. I happen to agree, but then again, I'm also a bicyclist.

But here's the catch. The large majority of US urban residents are NOT bicyclists, and aren't looking for an excuse to ride a bike, and see it as more of a last option when preferred options don't work so well. Those residents who are bicyclists may also opt to use their own bikes because they're so much better than those typically used for bike share.

So, most people don't see bikeshare use as something special, except possibly tourists looking for the "city experience". So, IMO ('m giving my opinion here), bike share needs all the help it can get, both pull, like nice weather, and pleasant riding conditions, and push, like congestion and crowded transit, so non-cyclists will consider it better on balance for their needs.

I'm not a Seattle resident, but from what I can see, the balance was tipped against bike share, even without the helmet issue being the coup de gras. It's hilly, has too many wet days, and happens to have invested pretty heavily in a bus system that seems to work. This doesn't mean it's a lousy place for bike commuters, just that the "swing" riders won't be there.
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Old 01-20-17, 02:39 PM   #119
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I'm SURE it will work if they move those bikes to Burlington Iowa.
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Old 01-20-17, 02:53 PM   #120
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Is it too P&R to observe that there's nothing new about the bike rental biz and that involving government makes about as much sense as gov-t subsidized hot dog and pizza home delivery.
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Old 01-20-17, 06:25 PM   #121
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Helmets AND suitable infrastructure to attract those who are not already "cyclists" AND tourist sites that visitors will want to travel to by bicycles AND other transport options that are not directly competing with bikeshare at a similar (or even lower/free) pricepoint AND integration with public transport.

Brisbane's system is failing as they have:
MHL
Poor infrastructure
Few tourist venues local to where bikeshare operates
A free hop on, hop off tourist bus service that loops around the city
Very poor integration with the public transport system outside of a select few train stations

On top of that the bikeshare system is limited to a very small part of what is a very large city.
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Old 01-20-17, 06:34 PM   #122
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Nothing new about bike rental, but bikeshare programs are substantially different in both their purpose and their operation. Night and day, really.
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Old 01-20-17, 06:46 PM   #123
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Nothing new about bike rental, but bikeshare programs are substantially different in both their purpose and their operation. Night and day, really.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/24858199@N00/11001694033/
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Old 01-26-17, 02:59 PM   #124
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Is it too P&R to observe that there's nothing new about the bike rental biz and that involving government makes about as much sense as gov-t subsidized hot dog and pizza home delivery.
Except that Montreal's bike share program started out as a private company, and has become more successful since it was taken over by the city. it was never intended to be a bike rental program even though many tourists use it that way. It is a bike share program, quite a different thing, designed so that someone can go from one point to another over fairly short distances that they might otherwise use a less efficient( and often slower) means of transport for the same distance. This is not bike rental, it is more like borrowing your friend's bike to run down to the local convenience store because it will save you time.
Think of it as public transportation

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Old 01-26-17, 07:28 PM   #125
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Except that Montreal's bike share program started out as a private company, and has become more successful since it was taken over by the city...
Are you talking about Bixi...? If so, it apparently was the city of Montreal that sold to a private company and only after accumulating $50M in debt. Bixi filed for bankruptcy in Montreal in 2014 and was purchased by the city of Montreal which then sold the company to Bruno Rodi, a Quebec businessman. Montreal is simply purchasing a taxpayer-funded service from a vendor. There will always be those who believe the benefits outweigh the costs, especially if they're not paying the bills. The users below certainly experience the service as a bike rental and label it as such:

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Beware of BIXI Bike Rentals
Jun 04, 2012, 4:28 PM

English-speaking people BEWARE!!! BIXI may decieve you.

The method of fee charging for the BIXI system is incredibly deceptive, especially if you're an English speaker. It charges you a flat $7 fee AND an additional $7 per 30 minutes of rental. However, these charges are NOT well labeled in English.

My wife and I thought we would only need to pay $7 for 24 hours' worth of time. Instead, we were charged over $50 for renting two bikes for 2 hours. When I called BIXI to explain how its policy was not very clear, especially to English speakers, BIXI refused to refund our money or even to accept my explanation.

This is a poor way to treat travelers. I would advise visitors to Montreal to avoid using BIXI unless you're prepared to pay MUCH more than you might think you're paying.

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