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Increasing Conspicuity

Old 03-03-17, 09:06 PM
  #26  
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I've been hit twice while riding a motorcycle, luck has been with me so far riding a bicycle.
I'm hesitant to become too focused on "safety gear" as a solution, but feel there is a wise minimum.

Bright but non blinding headlight.

One steady, and one flashing tail light.

Tires with reflective sidewalls.

mirror.

light colored gloves with reflective material.

Avoid clothing colors that could make me hard to see.

While I don't think its a major consideration, I did choose to get my new e-cargo bike in bright orange rather than dark blue.



Personally I found a helmet light to be too distracting because it limited my ability to freely look around as desired without negatively effecting others.

Last edited by kickstart; 03-03-17 at 09:11 PM.
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Old 03-03-17, 10:08 PM
  #27  
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Originally Posted by kickstart View Post
I've been hit twice while riding a motorcycle, luck has been with me so far riding a bicycle.
I'm hesitant to become too focused on "safety gear" as a solution, but feel there is a wise minimum.

Bright but non blinding headlight.

One steady, and one flashing tail light.

Tires with reflective sidewalls.

mirror.

light colored gloves with reflective material.

Avoid clothing colors that could make me hard to see.

While I don't think its a major consideration, I did choose to get my new e-cargo bike in bright orange rather than dark blue.



Personally I found a helmet light to be too distracting because it limited my ability to freely look around as desired without negatively effecting others.
OK, thanks for that.
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Old 03-03-17, 10:22 PM
  #28  
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Originally Posted by churnman View Post
Spend the majority of your rides on multiple use paths where riding in traffic is not required. Your location should have a few of these available Drivers are always going to treat cycles like another motorized vehicle. My main concern if for drivers that do not leave sufficient clearance when passing. All the lights and HiViz clothing in the world will not save you when veering an inch will land you in the hospital. There are many tires available with a reflective sidewall which will help in the dusk. If you plan on riding in the dark, good luck.
I find with proper lighting/reflective gear at night drivers give me even more consideration and space than they do during daylight.
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Old 03-03-17, 11:12 PM
  #29  
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Originally Posted by trailangel View Post
Don't buy a black bike. Don't ride a bike with black spokes... I hate all this blacked out look that everybody rides... hideous and not safe.
Buy light colored bike. White helmet. Light colored jersey.... and I dare say... white socks.
Doesn't make a difference. None of it. Reflective materials work at night... sort of. But if a driver is distracted or not paying attention, you could be wearing a neon yellow body suit and you'll still get run over. They tell Caltrans workers during training that when the eye sees a bright object in their peripheral vision (like a guy wearing a hi-viz vest) the body will instinctively head toward it. This is why bright orange Caltrans trucks have bright yellow crash boxes on the back of them, and they still get hit all the time. How often do you see a neon orange road cone without black tire marks all over it?

If you think that wearing bright colors makes you safer, then wear them. Go crazy. But you could be covered in LED pinwheels, and have paper streamers trailing off of you, and still get right hooked one day. Because people are simply not paying attention. When the person that cuts you off and sends you over a curb says "I never even saw you," they're not lying. They never saw you because they weren't looking. Or alternately, they just don't care. I've made direct eye contact with drivers and they still cut me off. The colors of the bike and kit make absolutely no difference whatsoever.

The best method to avoid getting run over has nothing to do with what you're wearing. Just assume everyone is out to kill you, and bear the responsibility of stopping them from doing it. Absolutely no one out there is looking out for your well-being. They're not looking for you at all.
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Old 03-04-17, 12:53 AM
  #30  
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Originally Posted by Chris0516 View Post
I have never found a light that would stay on the back of my helmet. PlanetBike has ones that are junk. They won't remain stable at the base.
I used the Blackburn 2'Fer as a rear helmet light. Comes with a rubber band mount that's much stouter than necessary for such a lightweight doodad. Mounts through the vents on the back of my Bell Solar road type helmet -- plenty of vents.

A "commuter" or skater type helmet would be a bit trickier. I'd use heavy duty Velcro for those. Get the kind of hook and loop tape from Velcro, 3M Command or similar stuff that's all plastic -- not fabric. I use stuff from Radio Shack that was designed to hold mobile communications devices to vehicle dashboards, so it won't budget with typical bike lights, or even my Ion Speed Pro video camera.

You can buy a pair of Blackburn 2'Fers on Amazon for $40. Good value in to-be-seen helmet lights.

Are you referring to bike tires similar to whitewall tires on a car?
Yup, reflective white bands. Continental calls theirs "Reflex" -- they're on the wire bead version of my Speed Ride tires, but not on the folding bead version. My Michelin Protek tires have them too.

Helps some but I'm planning to add some lights that are visible from the sides. On some group rides other riders have added some low power but very visible LEDs to their wheels and frames. It's impressive how much these enhance visibility without blinding other folks.

I have never been able to get reflective bands, to stop falling down my arms or legs.
I get these in yellow and orange, a pair of the two colors for a buck at Dollartree. They hold pretty well. Just plastic, no fabric, etc., like some I've seen. But they don't cost $10-$15 like others.
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Old 03-04-17, 12:55 AM
  #31  
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Originally Posted by DrIsotope View Post
Doesn't make a difference. None of it. Reflective materials work at night... sort of. But if a driver is distracted or not paying attention, you could be wearing a neon yellow body suit and you'll still get run over. They tell Caltrans workers during training that when the eye sees a bright object in their peripheral vision (like a guy wearing a hi-viz vest) the body will instinctively head toward it. This is why bright orange Caltrans trucks have bright yellow crash boxes on the back of them, and they still get hit all the time. How often do you see a neon orange road cone without black tire marks all over it?

If you think that wearing bright colors makes you safer, then wear them. Go crazy. But you could be covered in LED pinwheels, and have paper streamers trailing off of you, and still get right hooked one day. Because people are simply not paying attention. When the person that cuts you off and sends you over a curb says "I never even saw you," they're not lying. They never saw you because they weren't looking. Or alternately, they just don't care. I've made direct eye contact with drivers and they still cut me off. The colors of the bike and kit make absolutely no difference whatsoever.

The best method to avoid getting run over has nothing to do with what you're wearing. Just assume everyone is out to kill you, and bear the responsibility of stopping them from doing it. Absolutely no one out there is looking out for your well-being. They're not looking for you at all.
This has always been my mentality. I spent most of my life riding motorcycles, as in street bikes. "Ride invisible", as in, "ride as if invisible", is the best mentality. As soon as you start expecting or thinking someone sees you, you're pretty much doomed. So I won't count on higher viz making me dramatically safer, but for the few times it will grab someone's attention when it needs to, and the positive and more attentive attitude change (of others) it can bring, I still think it's worth it within reason.
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Old 03-04-17, 04:30 AM
  #32  
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Originally Posted by DrIsotope View Post
Doesn't make a difference. None of it. Reflective materials work at night... sort of. But if a driver is distracted or not paying attention, you could be wearing a neon yellow body suit and you'll still get run over. They tell Caltrans workers during training that when the eye sees a bright object in their peripheral vision (like a guy wearing a hi-viz vest) the body will instinctively head toward it. This is why bright orange Caltrans trucks have bright yellow crash boxes on the back of them, and they still get hit all the time. How often do you see a neon orange road cone without black tire marks all over it?

If you think that wearing bright colors makes you safer, then wear them. Go crazy. But you could be covered in LED pinwheels, and have paper streamers trailing off of you, and still get right hooked one day. Because people are simply not paying attention. When the person that cuts you off and sends you over a curb says "I never even saw you," they're not lying. They never saw you because they weren't looking. Or alternately, they just don't care. I've made direct eye contact with drivers and they still cut me off. The colors of the bike and kit make absolutely no difference whatsoever.

The best method to avoid getting run over has nothing to do with what you're wearing. Just assume everyone is out to kill you, and bear the responsibility of stopping them from doing it. Absolutely no one out there is looking out for your well-being. They're not looking for you at all.
Oh silly me. You are so right.
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Old 03-04-17, 04:35 AM
  #33  
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Originally Posted by canklecat View Post
I used the Blackburn 2'Fer as a rear helmet light. Comes with a rubber band mount that's much stouter than necessary for such a lightweight doodad. Mounts through the vents on the back of my Bell Solar road type helmet -- plenty of vents.

A "commuter" or skater type helmet would be a bit trickier. I'd use heavy duty Velcro for those. Get the kind of hook and loop tape from Velcro, 3M Command or similar stuff that's all plastic -- not fabric. I use stuff from Radio Shack that was designed to hold mobile communications devices to vehicle dashboards, so it won't budget with typical bike lights, or even my Ion Speed Pro video camera.

You can buy a pair of Blackburn 2'Fers on Amazon for $40. Good value in to-be-seen helmet lights.


Yup, reflective white bands. Continental calls theirs "Reflex" -- they're on the wire bead version of my Speed Ride tires, but not on the folding bead version. My Michelin Protek tires have them too.

Helps some but I'm planning to add some lights that are visible from the sides. On some group rides other riders have added some low power but very visible LEDs to their wheels and frames. It's impressive how much these enhance visibility without blinding other folks.


I get these in yellow and orange, a pair of the two colors for a buck at Dollartree. They hold pretty well. Just plastic, no fabric, etc., like some I've seen. But they don't cost $10-$15 like others.
Thanks!
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Old 03-04-17, 05:33 AM
  #34  
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Originally Posted by Leebo View Post
Please tell me you do not have a white light facing backwards, please. Plenty of really BRIGHT red lights for that purpose.
Like the Flare R, in fact... I'm confused too.
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Old 03-04-17, 08:34 AM
  #35  
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Originally Posted by DrIsotope View Post
Doesn't make a difference. None of it. Reflective materials work at night... sort of. But if a driver is distracted or not paying attention, you could be wearing a neon yellow body suit and you'll still get run over.
Of course anything could happen to anyone at any time no matter what they are wearing. That doesn't mean hi-vis gear makes no positive difference. In my experience it's extremely useful in helping drivers notice me. Maybe the camo asphalt colored gear works better for you.

Originally Posted by AdvXtrm View Post
"Ride invisible", as in, "ride as if invisible", is the best mentality.
If you assume you are invisible you could never cross the path of a motor vehicle... not even one at a complete stop. It could take off and cream you the instant you are in front of it.

Sorry, but we all have to put some trust in others when sharing the roads. We can control a lot, but not all.
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Old 03-04-17, 12:38 PM
  #36  
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Originally Posted by trailangel View Post
Oh silly me. You are so right.
Don't confuse your opinion with scientific evidence. A blinking taillight will raise conspicuity more than any color you wear on your body. The color of the bike is an absolute non-factor.

Originally Posted by AlmostTrick View Post
Of course anything could happen to anyone at any time no matter what they are wearing. That doesn't mean hi-vis gear makes no positive difference. In my experience it's extremely useful in helping drivers notice me. Maybe the camo asphalt colored gear works better for you.
The placebo effect can be as strong as the medication-- if wearing the hi-viz makes you feel better, wear it. But be aware that it can in fact be more dangerous, as it can potentially lead to complacency. Someone wearing all bright colors might think, "Oh, they can see me, I'm as bright as a highlighter," and stop behaving as if every car is out to kill them.

I don't innately trust anything out on the road-- not the cars, not the peds, the joggers, not the other people on bikes. Vigilant awareness is the key to maintaining safety. Not the color of the jersey. And on a wholly pedantic note, camouflage only works when stationary. You could wear a full camo kit and still be as visible as anyone else.
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Old 03-04-17, 12:57 PM
  #37  
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what doesnt look will not see you already know this, if you dont wanna get hit; stay home, or just ride and enjoy life while it lasts
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Old 03-04-17, 03:05 PM
  #38  
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Originally Posted by canklecat View Post
I used the Blackburn 2'Fer as a rear helmet light. Comes with a rubber band mount that's much stouter than necessary for such a lightweight doodad. Mounts through the vents on the back of my Bell Solar road type helmet -- plenty of vents.

A "commuter" or skater type helmet would be a bit trickier. I'd use heavy duty Velcro for those. Get the kind of hook and loop tape from Velcro, 3M Command or similar stuff that's all plastic -- not fabric. I use stuff from Radio Shack that was designed to hold mobile communications devices to vehicle dashboards, so it won't budget with typical bike lights, or even my Ion Speed Pro video camera.

You can buy a pair of Blackburn 2'Fers on Amazon for $40. Good value in to-be-seen helmet lights.
I have the Bell Slant mountain biking helmet, plenty of vents. Even though it is actually for mountain biking, I like its' design. I ride only on the road.

Originally Posted by canklecat View Post
Yup, reflective white bands. Continental calls theirs "Reflex" -- they're on the wire bead version of my Speed Ride tires, but not on the folding bead version. My Michelin Protek tires have them too.

Helps some but I'm planning to add some lights that are visible from the sides. On some group rides other riders have added some low power but very visible LEDs to their wheels and frames. It's impressive how much these enhance visibility without blinding other folks.
Oh, I have Continental GatorSkins, because of several punctures resulting with ordinary road tires.

Hmmm....I don't want to be 'lit up like a Christmas tree', to feel safe that I am seen. I have very bright lights for my headlight(NiteRider Minewt 600/Lumina 750/ NiteRider Lumina 750 Boost Headlight) and taillight(Axiom Pulse 60/http://www.performancebike.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Product_10052_10551_1132451_-1_400159__400159)
Originally Posted by canklecat View Post
I get these in yellow and orange, a pair of the two colors for a buck at Dollartree. They hold pretty well. Just plastic, no fabric, etc., like some I've seen. But they don't cost $10-$15 like others.
I will take a look.
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Old 03-04-17, 06:28 PM
  #39  
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FWIW, this is my current setup on my main bike, except my sister bought me a monkey light for the front wheel, so imagine an orange arrow spinning around.
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Old 03-04-17, 07:14 PM
  #40  
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Originally Posted by AdvXtrm View Post
Having barely survived being hit and run over while out on my motorcycle last year, and permanently injured, I have, insanely no doubt, decided to take up bicycling while I was still crippled and partially paralyzed in the convalescent hospital. Must be the head trauma playing tricks on me.

I'm hoping to up the odds of being noticed by the thoughtless and careless lunatics on the roads. I've just ordered a new blinky taillight, but I'd like to do more if I can. So besides my own HiViz clothing, what other things can I add to my bike to help out? I'd like to attach something HiViz to the rear of my bike, but don't know what I can get or where to get it. I've seen some people have a HiViz triangle attached.

Do you have any advice and links to items that may help with this?
The main difference between bicycles and motorcycles is, the bicycle can't keep up with traffic, and gets passed all the time. Also drivers don't expect bicycles next to them, or coming from places a car or motorcycle can't go.
The only thing better about a bicycle is that the speed is limited by you. They are not better in traffic, they are worse.
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Old 03-04-17, 08:18 PM
  #41  
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Regarding the advantages to hi-viz clothing, lights and reflectors, I never get complacent. I only want a split-second advantage. Most decisions made while moving -- whether cycling or driving -- occur in a fraction of a second. If a dayglo yellow blob pops into our consciousness momentarily while scanning the scene around us and mirrors before leaping into the fray, that's good enough to justify wearing or using anything that adds that small advantage.

I wish more serious fast cyclists wore at least a little hi-viz -- helmets, accents on the jerseys or shorts. Anything. But it's mostly the slower to middling cyclists like me who wear hi-viz, rarely the roadies chasing KOMs.

Our local MUP attracts a lot of fairly fast riders, mostly on the paved path and occasionally on the gravel/chat trail. The paved and gravel paths criss-cross in several places. Usually those intersections are rough where the unpaved paths erode from weather and wear. And there may be pedestrians with dogs and kids. Lots of stuff to evaluate in a few moments.

So while I'm approaching those criss-crosses (I usually prefer the gravel path), I'm checking my mirror, looking around for cyclists approaching from behind, guesstimating what the joggers, walkers, kids and dogs ahead of me will do, and trying to watch my line because after every rain or mowing session the ruts, washouts and sand fills can change.

Twice on Friday's 30 mile ride faster road bike cyclists overtook me from behind on the paved path while I was on the gravel trail approaching a criss-cross intersection. I just barely saw them glancing at my mirror and as far as I can see over my shoulder (my neck mobility is limited by a damaged C2). They were wearing all dark jerseys and shorts, blending in against the dark surroundings, didn't call out that they were approaching, etc. So naturally I'm forced to slam on my brakes to accommodate them.

Same thing on the gravel path later, this time a guy in all black on a gravel bike. I saw him well in advance this time and could see him overtaking me. So I pull over to the right and slow slightly, from about 16 mph to 12 mph. He had plenty of opportunities to pass safely but no, he waited until we approached a criss-cross intersection where he passed on my left (without announcing) then swerved in front of me to take the paved path going right, while I was following the gravel path curving leftward. I was aware of him the whole time, but his pass was unexpected. Had he been wearing hi-vis accents I could have that split-second advantage in peripheral vision as he passed. But he was practically invisible against the dark green levee to my left just after sunset.

These are little things but can add up to a split-second advantage at a crucial moment.

I finally added some hi-vis bits of clothing after noticing how well other cyclists and pedestrians popped into my peripheral vision from hundreds of yards away on gloomy days, in deep shade under bridges and overpasses, and even at night in my lights. It's much easier to estimate their distance, direction and our closing speeds.

And there have been many occasions when it was difficult to guesstimate faster cyclists wearing dark clothing as they zipped around slower cyclists and pedestrians.

Now, granted, cyclists shouldn't be riding that way on the MUP. But that's a lost cause. MUPs are what they are, always have been, always will be. Not worth arguing about.

But if hi-vis clothing worn by others gives me that split second to evaluate what other folks are doing on the MUP, you're damn skippy I want to give that same advantage to drivers while I'm riding in traffic.
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Old 03-04-17, 08:32 PM
  #42  
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Originally Posted by 2manybikes View Post
The main difference between bicycles and motorcycles is, the bicycle can't keep up with traffic, and gets passed all the time. Also drivers don't expect bicycles next to them, or coming from places a car or motorcycle can't go.
The only thing better about a bicycle is that the speed is limited by you. They are not better in traffic, they are worse.
Right, and also of course the heavy motorcycling protective gear that saved my life won't be there on a bicycle.
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Old 03-04-17, 08:38 PM
  #43  
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Yes, Dr. I-So-Dope. Link to your scientific evidence, if you would.
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Old 03-04-17, 08:58 PM
  #44  
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Originally Posted by 2manybikes View Post
The main difference between bicycles and motorcycles is, the bicycle can't keep up with traffic, and gets passed all the time. Also drivers don't expect bicycles next to them, or coming from places a car or motorcycle can't go
Admit it, you never cycled in a major city have you?
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Old 03-04-17, 10:05 PM
  #45  
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[QUOTE=Chris0516;19417181]Are you referring to bike tires similar to whitewall tires on a car?[/quote

Not really; it's a true retroreflective stripe around both sides. I've been running a pair of these (in 32, though - haven't seen them in that size for a while) for 6 years, and they're pretty close to needing replacement for the number of chunks of metal I've had to dig out of them, while the tread still looks fine: CST Corporal Tire - 700 x 38 Reflective, Black

Continental and Schwalbe also offer reflective sidewalls in some tire models, though not all, because they'd rather see some of their customers die than deface Gatorskins or Insiders with a reflective stripe.

I have never been able to get reflective bands, to stop falling down my arms or legs.
I only wear them at wrists and ankles if I find myself riding at night without reflective clothing. Otherwise, they're wrapped around my tubes. The Dollar Tree ones seem to degrade after a few years, but at $1/pair, they're cheap enough to replace, or you can watch eBay for $2/10 deals.
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Old 03-04-17, 10:59 PM
  #46  
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Originally Posted by trailangel View Post
Yes, Dr. I-So-Dope. Link to your scientific evidence, if you would.
Oh sure, allow me to be your own personal search engine. I am pleased that you went to personal attacks so quickly. Stay classy, Pasadena. Some of the studies are focused on motorcycles, because they get killed more, and have bigger data pools.

Why cycling in high-vis may be not as safe as you think

"One study, from 2011, appeared to show that drivers saw moving motorbikes more quickly if there was a greater colour contrast between the background and the rider's clothes. Another, from last year, concluded that depending on the road and traffic the most visible rider apparel could be a high-vis jacket, a white jacket or even a black jacket."

"Given that environments may differ over even fairly small changes in time or location, there is not likely to be a one-size-fits-all solution, meaning that motorcyclists need to be aware of the limitations of whichever interventions they use."



Does fluoro kit make you safer?

"Based on the data, it’s unlikely that cycling outfits could ever provide a sustainable solution to rider safety. The optimum solution to the very closest overtakes will not lie with cyclists themselves, and instead we should look to changes in infrastructure, education or the law to prevent drivers getting dangerously close when overtaking cyclists."

"There are only three possible reasons a motorist could hit a cyclist: 1 Failure to spot the cyclist; 2 Saw the cyclist but misjudged the manoeuvre; 3 Deliberate aggression. In the best of all possible worlds, hi-viz could only ever address the first. The fact it doesn’t seem to fix things suggests that most collisions happen for reason number two."


And the results go on and on and on. During the day, hi-viz and fluoro will at best not make things worse.
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Old 03-05-17, 03:03 AM
  #47  
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I've read that and similar articles before. I see some flaws, not the least of which is one of the most common conclusions:
In the best of all possible worlds, hi-viz could only ever address the first.
So it may help in 33% of the listed scenarios? I'll take it.

As I've mentioned before, I'm after those fractional advantages that make all the difference in dodging fast moving stuff. Whether a boxer's fists or a motor vehicle, a miss is a miss.

I can't prove that hi-viz clothing or reflectors make me more visible to others. But I know cyclists and pedestrians are more visible to me when they're wearing hi-viz clothing and reflectors.

It's reasonable to conclude that I'm also more visible to others when I'm wearing hi-viz clothing or accents, and reflective doodads.

Are there scenarios that would diminish this visibility? Sure.
  • If the MUP and city were adorned with a background of hi-viz yellow, like a Cristo project run amok. In that case black or complementary colors would provide more contrast and visibility.
  • Party-themed public entertainment distracts (typo - I meant district, but distract works as well) compete with bicycle glowwinkies for attention. I've video recorded many twilight and nighttime solo and group bike rides and in reviewing the videos I can see why drivers might misjudge cyclists in our downtown entertainment district, which is lighted year 'round like a carnival -- even trees festooned with holiday lights all year.
Another potentially fallacious assertion that bears further study:
"...a study in Canada found that while wearing light (not necessarily fluorescent) clothing decreased the risk of an accident in daylight, wearing fluorescent clothing (and using lights) actually increased the chances of being in an accident at night.

"The researchers believe this could be down to ‘risk compensation’ – the fact that cyclists may overestimate how visible they are and the level of protection offered by fluorescent kit and so take more risks in traffic."
That's the same potentially fallacious assertion made regarding helmets. I certainly don't ride less cautiously just because I'm wearing a helmet. If anything the least cautious cyclists I see are those who don't wear helmets.

There's a lot of stuff competing for attention. I'm mindful of this whenever I ride downtown. I don't usually take the lane completely in most suburban and rural riding, but I do downtown. Even riding just outside the door zone of parked cars may be too close to the myriad downtown glowwinkies. Downtown I'll take center lane or the leftmost wheel track, rather than my usual preference for the rightmost wheel track.

In my opinion in this scenario, overestimating visibility would be to ride too "safely" (timidly), too far to the right. Take the lane and it signals most conscientious drivers of our intent, so they're less tempted to try unsafe passes and right hooks. If we stay too far to the right we blend in with all the other background clutter.
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Old 03-05-17, 04:37 AM
  #48  
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Bottom line: wear bright/reflective kit; act/think like you are invisible.
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Old 03-05-17, 05:49 AM
  #49  
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Originally Posted by DrIsotope View Post
I've made direct eye contact with drivers and they still cut me off. The colors of the bike and kit make absolutely no difference whatsoever.

The best method to avoid getting run over has nothing to do with what you're wearing. Just assume everyone is out to kill you, and bear the responsibility of stopping them from doing it. Absolutely no one out there is looking out for your well-being. They're not looking for you at all.
True.

I know its hard for some to understand, there are malicious motorists out there, no amount of high-viz will protect you.

I prefer active lighting over passive reflectors, lots of people still drive at night without headlights.
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Old 03-05-17, 06:20 AM
  #50  
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Originally Posted by DrIsotope View Post
They tell Caltrans workers during training that when the eye sees a bright object in their peripheral vision (like a guy wearing a hi-viz vest) the body will instinctively head toward it.
This is dumb. You are saying Caltrans makes their employees wear hi-vis vests to get people to hit them.

I suppose they put flashing lights on airplanes and towers (all sorts of things) because the want them to be run into.

Anyway, you need to provide the scientific evidence for this.

Originally Posted by DrIsotope View Post
This is why bright orange Caltrans trucks have bright yellow crash boxes on the back of them, and they still get hit all the time. How often do you see a neon orange road cone without black tire marks all over it?
This is dumb. You are saying Caltrans uses yellow/neon orange to get people to hit them.

Maybe, it's this (in the following).

Originally Posted by DrIsotope View Post
Doesn't make a difference. None of it. Reflective materials work at night... sort of. But if a driver is distracted or not paying attention, you could be wearing a neon yellow body suit and you'll still get run over.
Originally Posted by DrIsotope View Post
The placebo effect can be as strong as the medication-.
The following likely applies.

Originally Posted by DrIsotope View Post
Don't confuse your opinion with scientific evidence.
Originally Posted by DrIsotope View Post
But be aware that it can in fact be more dangerous, as it can potentially lead to complacency. Someone wearing all bright colors might think, "Oh, they can see me, I'm as bright as a highlighter," and stop behaving as if every car is out to kill them.
Speculation. You need to provide scientific evidence to support this claim Or you have to stop complaining about other people not providing it.

You evidence has to prove that it matters overall (that it happens in some cases isn't very meaningful).

In any case, complacency is the potential danger here, not the hi-vis clothing. One can be noncomplacent.

Originally Posted by DrIsotope View Post
I don't innately trust anything out on the road-- not the cars, not the peds, the joggers, not the other people on bikes. Vigilant awareness is the key to maintaining safety. Not the color of the jersey. And on a wholly pedantic note, camouflage only works when stationary. You could wear a full camo kit and still be as visible as anyone else.
Irrelevant. No one really saying to trust anything. In any case, if other things increase your statistical safety, it would seem to make sense to use them.

The "key" thing to "maintaining safety" is to avoid the activity you are worried about.

Originally Posted by DrIsotope View Post
Oh sure, allow me to be your own personal search engine. I am pleased that you went to personal attacks so quickly. Stay classy, Pasadena. Some of the studies are focused on motorcycles, because they get killed more, and have bigger data pools.

Why cycling in high-vis may be not as safe as you think

"One study, from 2011, appeared to show that drivers saw moving motorbikes more quickly if there was a greater colour contrast between the background and the rider's clothes. Another, from last year, concluded that depending on the road and traffic the most visible rider apparel could be a high-vis jacket, a white jacket or even a black jacket."

"Given that environments may differ over even fairly small changes in time or location, there is not likely to be a one-size-fits-all solution, meaning that motorcyclists need to be aware of the limitations of whichever interventions they use."


Does fluoro kit make you safer?

"Based on the data, it’s unlikely that cycling outfits could ever provide a sustainable solution to rider safety. The optimum solution to the very closest overtakes will not lie with cyclists themselves, and instead we should look to changes in infrastructure, education or the law to prevent drivers getting dangerously close when overtaking cyclists."

"There are only three possible reasons a motorist could hit a cyclist: 1 Failure to spot the cyclist; 2 Saw the cyclist but misjudged the manoeuvre; 3 Deliberate aggression. In the best of all possible worlds, hi-viz could only ever address the first. The fact it doesn’t seem to fix things suggests that most collisions happen for reason number two."
This doesn't mean what you think it means.

Originally Posted by DrIsotope View Post
And the results go on and on and on. During the day, hi-viz and fluoro will at best not make things worse.
What you posted earlier does not support your claims.

Awful. Just awful.

Last edited by njkayaker; 03-05-17 at 07:16 AM.
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