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Old 03-20-17, 12:28 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by mr_bill View Post
California Law, as interpreted and taught, is clear.l
Drivers manuals have been known to interpret the law incorrectly in other cases.

What they recommend might be reasonable but that doesn't make it the law either.

Remember, if a pedestrian makes eye contact with you, he or she is ready to cross the street. Yield to the pedestrian.

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What color is the road in your world?
??? Do you need laws to tell you to avoid running into people?
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Old 03-20-17, 12:31 PM   #77
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Ironically, while working in China, I was taught just the opposite...
"if you look at a driver they know you have seen them and will not stop for you."

We were instructed to step off the curb without looking.
In places other than the US (like Europe/Tahiti!), it's common for drivers to stop.

You can look without making eye contact.

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We were instructed to step off the curb without looking.
That's dumb advice in so many ways.

Why drivers in China intentionally kill the pedestrians they hit: China?s laws have encouraged the hit to kill phenomenon.
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Old 03-20-17, 12:34 PM   #78
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Ironically, while working in China, I was taught just the opposite...
"if you look at a driver they know you have seen them and will not stop for you."

We were instructed to step off the curb without looking.
Boston is far simpler - they will not stop for you. (Not quite fair - 19/20 will not stop for you.)

-mr. bill
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Old 03-20-17, 12:41 PM   #79
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split hairs much?
If you are talking about what the "law says", you should be correct and clear about it. (You should post a link to the law so that people can see what it really says so they don't have to rely on people's bad interpretations.)

The "about to cross" is not clear. There's nothing that distinguishes "about to cross" from "waiting to cross".
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Old 03-20-17, 01:09 PM   #80
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Thankfully, younger drivers are learning the law, that pedestrians at marked and unmarked crosswalks have the right of way.
Unmarked cross walks? There is a cross walk or not. I am missing something? Maybe MA is different?
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Old 03-20-17, 01:18 PM   #81
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Boston is far simpler - they will not stop for you. (Not quite fair - 19/20 will not stop for you.)

-mr. bill
It is better when the peds don't try to cross when The cars have a green light. Much. Downtown is brutal. Had a texas car this am. Went through a red and then a left on red. Nice driver. If I have green in my car and peds try to cross, I just lean on the horn. Usually works. They are texting and walking and not paying attention some of the time. One jumped and dropped her phone, good thing I swerved around her. Not all would be so kind. And please drive/pedal a mile in my shoes before being critical about the road craziness here.

Last edited by Leebo; 03-21-17 at 07:33 AM.
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Old 03-20-17, 02:01 PM   #82
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Unmarked cross walks? There is a cross walk or not. I am missing something? Maybe MA is different?
In some states, crosswalks exist at every intersection. They don't have to be painted.

You should also know that paint wears away.
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Old 03-20-17, 02:10 PM   #83
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IMO, its only prudent to be over cautious if there's the slightest reason to suspect a person may cross the road under any circumstance in this age of "device zombies".
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Old 03-20-17, 02:57 PM   #84
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Unmarked cross walks? There is a cross walk or not. I am missing something? Maybe MA is different?
Again, by law or by practice? MA law is very - ambiguous.

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Section 11. When traffic control signals are not in place or not in operation the driver of a vehicle shall yield the right of way, slowing down or stopping if need be so to yield, to a pedestrian crossing the roadway within a crosswalk marked in accordance with standards established by the department of highways if the pedestrian is on that half of the traveled part of the way on which the vehicle is traveling or if the pedestrian approaches from the opposite half of the traveled part of the way to within 10 feet of that half of the traveled part of the way on which said vehicle is traveling.
So, most crosswalks are marked in accordance with standards - they need no paint.

But no matter - to a first approximation - nobody yields. Which means everybody yields.

Thar be horns blowing of course, but unless there are two oblivions, somehow things sort out.

We are predictably unpredictable.

-mr. bill
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Old 03-20-17, 05:47 PM   #85
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If you are talking about what the "law says", you should be correct and clear about it. (You should post a link to the law so that people can see what it really says so they don't have to rely on people's bad interpretations.)

The "about to cross" is not clear. There's nothing that distinguishes "about to cross" from "waiting to cross".
Body in motion... they are crossing. It really IS that simple.
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Old 03-20-17, 06:21 PM   #86
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In my experience, 'pedestrian in a crosswalk' right of way is well observed in the west. At least in AZ and CA. It has not historically been observed in the east regardless of the law. Some jurisdictions seem to be trying to change that, at least in high pedestrian traffic areas. It is the law here, but it is locally observed only in those crosswalks where there is specific signage, generally accompanied by flashing lights, indicating that cars must stop for pedestrians.
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Old 03-20-17, 06:32 PM   #87
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Body in motion... they are crossing. It really IS that simple.
That's what I said.

If you want to advise drivers what to do, talking about "moving" is more clear than talking about "about to" ("about to" doesn't mean "moving").

In any case, the laws don't say "moving" or "about to". They say some form of "in the crosswalk".
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Old 03-20-17, 06:58 PM   #88
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Get the facts.
http://www.ncsl.org/research/transpo...e-summary.aspx
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Old 03-21-17, 04:18 AM   #89
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Same website I offered several posts back...

Which shows the laws do vary from state to state, but for the most part require some sort of yield to peds crossing streets.
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Old 03-21-17, 07:22 AM   #90
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Same website I offered several posts back...

Which shows the laws do vary from state to state, but for the most part require some sort of yield to peds crossing streets.
Oops, missed that, but it seems to need repeating.

The law stipulates a pedestrian must allow a reasonable amount of time for motorists to stop, so someone fulfilling that obligation, but showing intent to cross is clearly within the motorists obligation to stop or yield even without actually being "in" the crosswalk.

For those who want to split hairs, the ramp and detectable warning (the bumpy yellow) are officially a transition between the sidewalk and crosswalk, therefore a pedestrian in that location should be considered entering the crosswalk.

Last edited by kickstart; 03-21-17 at 07:43 AM.
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Old 03-21-17, 11:35 AM   #91
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Oops, missed that, but it seems to need repeating.

The law stipulates a pedestrian must allow a reasonable amount of time for motorists to stop, so someone fulfilling that obligation, but showing intent to cross is clearly within the motorists obligation to stop or yield even without actually being "in" the crosswalk.

For those who want to split hairs, the ramp and detectable warning (the bumpy yellow) are officially a transition between the sidewalk and crosswalk, therefore a pedestrian in that location should be considered entering the crosswalk.


Indeed, it did deserve repeating.

Nice note on the issue of what constitutes a crosswalk... but what if it is just a plain curb... does one have to have their toes jutting out over the edge to get the notion of "crossing" out to motorists?
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Old 03-21-17, 11:47 AM   #92
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Indeed, it did deserve repeating.

Nice note on the issue of what constitutes a crosswalk... but what if it is just a plain curb... does one have to have their toes jutting out over the edge to get the notion of "crossing" out to motorists?
Well, a curb is neither street or sidewalk, therefore it would be a transition zone.
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Old 03-21-17, 12:03 PM   #93
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I'm still trying to get into the concept of the topic, sorta get it but don't know what 'over-polite' could be.


I guess move to a smaller area, you'll like it.
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Old 03-21-17, 12:39 PM   #94
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I'm still trying to get into the concept of the topic, sorta get it but don't know what 'over-polite' could be.


I guess move to a smaller area, you'll like it.
The OP had a point... some motorists offer ROW that can actually put a cyclist in danger... The classic is the motorist that stops in the left lane for an oncoming cyclist wanting to turn left.

If the cyclist is lulled into taking the invitation, there are two danger spots... one is right in front of the stopped car, as a later arriving motorist may not see that the first vehicle stopped and they plow right into the stopped vehicle, pushing it forward.

The other danger spot is to the right of the stopped vehicle, where an impatient motorist may overtake the stopped car... either on the shoulder or in a right lane.

Motorists that yield ROW and stop at stop signs also present a hazard in that they can throw other motorists out of sync with the correct order... and again the risk of an impatient motorist passing on the right.

Sure, the "over-polite" situation works just fine when the cyclist and motorist are the only road users within decent visible range... such as on a residential street or out in a rural location... so it is not always a failure... and sometimes it is nice to be nice and wave at that friendly neighbor.

Oh yeah, and the whole thread went on a tangent while discussing the hows and whys of stopping for crossing pedestrians.

Last edited by genec; 03-21-17 at 01:00 PM.
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Old 03-22-17, 07:40 AM   #95
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YIKES
genec's link is FILLED with china horror stories like this one-attributed to economics- but many are literally amoral

in 2010 in Xinyi, video captured a wealthy young man reversing his BMW X6 out of a parking spot. He hits a 3-year-old boy, knocking the child to the ground and rolling over his skull. The driver then shifts his BMW into drive and crushes the child again. Remarkably, the driver then gets out of the BMW, puts the vehicle in reverse, and guides it with his hand as he walks the vehicle backward over the boy’s crumpled body. The man’s foot is so close to the toddler’s head that, if alive, the boy could have reached out and touched him. The driver then puts the BMW in drive again, running over the boy one last time as he drives away.
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Old 03-22-17, 12:24 PM   #96
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??? Do you need laws to tell you to avoid running into people?
No, I need laws that tell people to get the heck out of my way. Maybe a titanium alloy cowcatcher too.

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IMO, its only prudent to be over cautious if there's the slightest reason to suspect a person may cross the road under any circumstance in this age of "device zombies".
Had one special dingbat over the weekend; coming from a parking lot, tripped on the curb at the sidewalk and stumbled across the sidewalk, stumbled again off the curb into the street, crossed diagonally in mid block and tripped on the far curb, all without looking up from her phone.
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Old 03-22-17, 05:18 PM   #97
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Wow, this thread has gone on much longer than I expected. It may be the longest thread I've ever OP'd...anywhere. But I like the way 'genec' put it above...where there is more than one motorist in the scene the cyclist has no idea if the other motorist(s) are clued in to what the 'over-polite motorist' is doing. Nor even if that motorist is aware of the cyclist's presence.

As far as the pedestrians...well, I don't think any motorists wants to hit a pedestrian (or cyclists). That would almost always end up in the favor of the pedrestrain/cyclist. But it's just good practice to have established rules, and designated zones for doing "whatever" where 3000+ lbs moving vehicles are concerned. Just like other motorists should be...cyclists and pedestrians should be 'predictable' for their own safety.

Dan

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The OP had a point... some motorists offer ROW that can actually put a cyclist in danger... The classic is the motorist that stops in the left lane for an oncoming cyclist wanting to turn left.

If the cyclist is lulled into taking the invitation, there are two danger spots... one is right in front of the stopped car, as a later arriving motorist may not see that the first vehicle stopped and they plow right into the stopped vehicle, pushing it forward.

The other danger spot is to the right of the stopped vehicle, where an impatient motorist may overtake the stopped car... either on the shoulder or in a right lane.

Motorists that yield ROW and stop at stop signs also present a hazard in that they can throw other motorists out of sync with the correct order... and again the risk of an impatient motorist passing on the right.

Sure, the "over-polite" situation works just fine when the cyclist and motorist are the only road users within decent visible range... such as on a residential street or out in a rural location... so it is not always a failure... and sometimes it is nice to be nice and wave at that friendly neighbor.

Oh yeah, and the whole thread went on a tangent while discussing the hows and whys of stopping for crossing pedestrians.
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Old 03-22-17, 07:25 PM   #98
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yeh had one of these today, I was turning left onto a 2 way, 4 lanes total, suv oncoming from the right stopped and tried to wave me across. no stop sign or light - not a controlled intersection - maybe trying real hard to be nice, 5 cars backed up behind him honking.....
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Old 03-22-17, 07:33 PM   #99
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As mentioned by a couple of posters, I worry when someone passes me by going into the opposite lane - particularity when they do it on a blind curve with trees obscuring the road ahead. There have been a couple of close ones lately where evasive swerving to avoid oncoming traffic makes me slightly nervous. I live in a rural area and the courtesy shown to me is generally outstanding.
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Old 03-22-17, 08:17 PM   #100
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As mentioned by a couple of posters, I worry when someone passes me by going into the opposite lane - particularity when they do it on a blind curve with trees obscuring the road ahead. There have been a couple of close ones lately where evasive swerving to avoid oncoming traffic makes me slightly nervous. I live in a rural area and the courtesy shown to me is generally outstanding.
I hear you. My husband and I ride this one two-lane rural road when we want a workout; there's barely a shoulder, so drivers give us a w i d e berth, often well into the opposite lane. We have a lot of drunks, stoners, and tweakers riding bikes, so I can understand drivers' desire to give us 8 to 10 feet, but you'd think a couple with helmets and mirrors would be assumed to be better riders than that.
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