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VC In Groups
So, as you may have heard, I had a nasty fall yesterday. A wrench jumps into my spokes and sends me down. It's bad enough that I fell, but the worst part is, I was at the front of a paceline, so I got ran over by about 3 other guys.
We were riding at the shoulder of a high-speed road. I can't help but think that if we were riding closer to the middle, we would have been fine. So, my question is, is VC practical for groups of cyclists? |
WTF? How did a wrench fall into your spokes?
If you ride as a group, i.e 2/3 abreast, the purpose of a paceline is defeated. You do know the purpose of a paceline, right? |
I see wrenches all over the road, so it probably wouldn't have made a difference. Of course, if you'd really been riding VC, you wouldn't have been "tailgating" by being in a paceline.
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Originally Posted by BostonFixed
WTF? How did a wrench fall into your spokes?
If you ride as a group, i.e 2/3 abreast, the purpose of a paceline is defeated. You do know the purpose of a paceline, right? |
I must've ran the wrench over on it's end, and thereby shot it into my spokes. Very weird occurance...
I'm saying that the paceline rides as a single vehicle on the road. We were riding two abreast, that is, the right line rotates back, and the left line rotates forward... |
Originally Posted by ivan_yulaev
I must've ran the wrench over on it's end, and thereby shot it into my spokes. Very weird occurance...
I'm saying that the paceline rides as a single vehicle on the road. We were riding two abreast, that is, the right line rotates back, and the left line rotates forward... |
I comonly ride with groups in a dual pace line in the right hand land where there is more than one lane in each direction, althouhg we move into a single line on narrow roads.
I have never seen a wrench on the road, although for some reason I have seen over a dozen tennis balls in the last couple months, and not even nerar parks or raquet clubs. |
Ivan - what group were you riding with?
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Originally Posted by Helmet Head
Ivan - what group were you riding with?
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I would worry less about lane position and worry more about looking out for debris in the road
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It was the SDBC sunday ride. I try to remind folks to not think like a solo cyclist when riding at the front of a paceline or pack, but like you have a bunch of moron lemmings following you. You have to look for obstacles further ahead, and move to avoid them sooner, allowing for delays in those following to adjust. Easier said than done, when your heart rate is redlining and you're concentrating on keeping a steady pace and looking to see if it's time to move right yet. Just getting these guys to stay out of the door zones coming down the coast is hard work! Ever go on Saturdays? Did the crash happen on San Dieguito Road (Fairbanks Ranch)?
Originally Posted by Dchief
We "say" we want to be treated just like other vehicles, but don't act like it. The reality is that we ride like cyclists, not like vehicle drivers.
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Originally Posted by Helmet Head
Forester address this dichotomy in his book, Effective Cycling. That's why he does not advocate for bicycles to be legally recognized as vehicles. Having the same rights of road acces as vehicle drivers, without being stricly held to some of the rules stemming from the potential fatal dangers of motor vehicles (no racing, no pacelining, etc.), gives us the best of both worlds...
What they're saying is that they want all the rights of other vehicles but don't want all the responsibilities. And, yes, John Forester opposed California defining a bicycle as a vehicle. Has anyone done a study of the dangers of paceline riding, or are we just supposed to take it on faith from the VC propagandists (like we're supposed to take so many other things) that it's inherently safe? |
Paceline cycling is not inherently safe, and I don't know of any VC advocates who claim otherwise.
However, the danger is borne solely by those choosing to engage in the activity (it's not acceptable to draft behind someone who is not inviting it). When people race motor vehicles on public roadways, or engage in driving cars too close together, others are endangered. When people race bicycles (and still obey traffic laws), or engage in drafting, others are not endangered. That's a crucial difference, I think, and is more than sufficient to alleviate VC advocates who support these activities for cyclists from being hypocrites. |
Originally Posted by Helmet Head
That's a crucial difference, I think, and is more than sufficient to alleviate VC advocates who support these activities for cyclists from being hypocrites.
They're hypocrites when the exagerate the dangers of riding on a sidewalk and seemingly have no objection when laws are passed restricing the rights of other cyclists to ride on the sidewalk even at pedestrian pace. I'd venture that an experienced cyclist riding at a pedestrian pace on the sidewalk is no more a danger to themself or others than a group of riders in a paceline. You don't find it at least strange that the guru of vehicular cycling opposes defining a bicycle as a vehicle? How does that fit in to the lectures you give to cyclists on these forums about how cyclists will never get respect as drivers of vehicles if they don't act like drivers of vehicles? |
JRA - who exaggerates the dangers of sidewalk cycling? I rode on the sidewalk just the other day, to go back and find out what happened to my friend a block back. I rode on the sidewalk, at ped speed, of course, and even used a crosswalk. It avoided having to do two U-turns. Even Forester writes about using the sidewalk on occasion, and would certainly agree that "an experienced cycling riding at a pedestrian pace on the sidewalk is no more a danger to themself or others than a group of riders in a paceline". I certainly do.
You don't find it at least strange that the guru of vehicular cycling opposes defining a bicycle as a vehicle? How does that fit in to the lectures you give to cyclists on these forums about how cyclists will never get respect as drivers of vehicles if they don't act like drivers of vehicles? Never-the-less, I contend that a cyclist will never get the respect of a vehicle driver, from other drivers, if he does not act as a vehicle driver. So, no I don't find it strange that Forester (or I) oppose defining a bicycle as a vehicle. It's your behavior -- acting as a vehicle driver -- that gets you the respect, not the bicycle. |
Sorry about your accident.
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Originally Posted by JRA
Has anyone done a study of the dangers of paceline riding, or are we just supposed to take it on faith from the VC propagandists (like we're supposed to take so many other things) that it's inherently safe?
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Originally Posted by Helmet Head
Forester address this dichotomy in his book, Effective Cycling. That's why he does not advocate for bicycles to be legally recognized as vehicles. Having the same rights of road acces as vehicle drivers, without being stricly held to some of the rules stemming from the potential fatal dangers of motor vehicles (no racing, no pacelining, etc.), gives us the best of both worlds... |
Originally Posted by Helmet Head
Having the same rights of road access as vehicle drivers, without being stricly held to some of the rules stemming from the potential fatal dangers of motor vehicles (no racing, no pacelining, etc.), gives us the best of both worlds...
NCGS § 20-152. Following too closely. (a)The driver of a motor vehicle shall not follow another vehicle more closely than is reasonable and prudent... NCGS § 20-171.2. Bicycle racing. (c) By agreement with the approving authority, participants in an approved bicycle highway racing event may be exempted from compliance with any traffic laws otherwise applicable thereto, provided that traffic control is adequate to assure the safety of all highway users. |
Originally Posted by Helmet Head
Ah... I was wondering. Sorry to hear about your crash! I go on the Saturday ride almost every weekend (have been leading the "B" ride since we moved the start to UC Cyclery) . Last Saturday (5/21) we had a similar crash on San Dieguito Road in the "A" ride... a piece of metal was hit by one cyclist that bounced up, got in the front wheel of another cyclist, and cracked or sliced his carbon fork. Bam! Broken ribs, punctured lung, fractures, etc. You can read about it in the Forums on the sdbc.org website.
I try to remind folks to not think like a solo cyclist when riding at the front of a paceline or pack, but like you have a bunch of moron lemmings following you. You have to look for obstacles further ahead, and move to avoid them sooner, allowing for delays in those following to adjust. Easier said than done, when your heart rate is redlining and you're concentrating on keeping a steady pace and looking to see if it's time to move right yet. Just getting these guys to stay out of the door zones coming down the coast is hard work! Ever go on Saturdays? Did the crash happen on San Dieguito Road (Fairbanks Ranch)? Forester address this dichotomy in his book, Effective Cycling. That's why he does not advocate for bicycles to be legally recognized as vehicles. Having the same rights of road acces as vehicle drivers, without being stricly held to some of the rules stemming from the potential fatal dangers of motor vehicles (no racing, no pacelining, etc.), gives us the best of both worlds... I might be by next saturday. You said you ride with B? |
Originally Posted by JRA
I wouldn't call it a dichotomy. Hypocrisy would be a better word. I've been amazed for some time at so-called VC proponents who rail against other non-vehicular forms of riding yet are quite willing to condone, even promote, a racing technique, paceline riding on the roads.
What they're saying is that they want all the rights of other vehicles but don't want all the responsibilities. |
Originally Posted by Ivan
I might be by next saturday. You said you ride with B?
Also, the B group tends to average around 19 mph, while the "C" group is much more moderate, probably around 15. Serge |
Originally Posted by Helmet Head
It will be good to meet you. I usually ride with the B group, but we highly recommend you get some experience riding in groups and pacelines in the "C" group before riding in the "B" group.
Also, the B group tends to average around 19 mph, while the "C" group is much more moderate, probably around 15. Serge |
Pacelines are fine in the right places, but perilous in the wrong places. I can't imagine a safe paceline on most urban streets. There, VC techniques, including assured-clear-distance rules, are probably the best alternative. The roadies should save the paceline for tracks or more rural roads.
A couple of idiot cyclists recently tried a two-man paceline on one of our local multi-use paths. A pedestrian (who, admitedly, was walking three-abreast with two other walkers in a place where the posted rules require single file) stepped in front of him when he was passing. The unhelmeted cyclist ended up with a skull fracture. I didn't hear what happened to the pedestrian. |
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