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It's the "what is the rider doing wrong?" thread, again

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It's the "what is the rider doing wrong?" thread, again

Old 05-05-17, 11:03 AM
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Hypno Toad
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It's the "what is the rider doing wrong?" thread, again

I met friends to mountain bike at Theo (local single track). The direct route home takes the Luce Line (rail trail), but leaves me on the north side of 394 and there are VERY few bike-friendly bridges to get south. Since it's 8:00 PM, I figure traffic will be light and I'll take the direct route over the Carlson bridge. I stayed in the middle lane, since the right lane is an entrance/exit for the highway. Frankly, I DO NOT like this option, but I don't see any better options. I live a mile from this bridge and watch bikers struggle with this issue all the time; I see tons of not-the-best option, but there's no other options riding.

But one car on the road, just one a-hole driver, and they still needed to be way too close (punish pass).


For your reference, I was crossing the Carlson bridge, southbound: https://www.google.com/maps/@44.9716...!3m1!1e3?hl=en
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Old 05-05-17, 12:34 PM
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Did you see it coming?

I like to monitor overtaking traffic with my mirror. Then, when I see someone not moving left enough in a situation where I'm using the lane, I can look back and/or drop a slow/stop hand signal. It helps to wake 'em up and realize I'm a real live person in front of them.
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Old 05-05-17, 12:44 PM
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Did not look like a punish pass to me. Looked like a driver who has no idea of how close a car looks to be when you are on a bicycle.
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Old 05-05-17, 04:10 PM
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LOL! That was some mighty outrage. I'm gonna burn a copy of your audio and make a radio-style CART to use instead of a horn or bell.

Seriously, I've heard lots of outraged cyclist stuff, but that was a moment of beauty. It's like Anthony Bourdain riding a bike.
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Old 05-05-17, 04:40 PM
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Originally Posted by howsteepisit View Post
Did not look like a punish pass to me. Looked like a driver who has no idea of how close a car looks to be when you are on a bicycle.
Less than 1 foot clearance qualifies as a punishment pass regardless how clueless a driver is or is not, especially with a passing lane right next to them.

Remember, objects are closer than they appear on wide angle cameras.
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Old 05-05-17, 05:11 PM
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Originally Posted by canklecat View Post
LOL! That was some mighty outrage. I'm gonna burn a copy of your audio and make a radio-style CART to use instead of a horn or bell.

Seriously, I've heard lots of outraged cyclist stuff, but that was a moment of beauty. It's like Anthony Bourdain riding a bike.
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Old 05-05-17, 05:13 PM
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UI suppose that would depend on how you define a punishment pass. If there was no intent to punish the cyclist then it is by definition not a punishment pass. However, if you have broadened the definition of a punishment pass to include all dangerous passes then its a punishment pass. Other than the closeness of the pass, I saw no evidence of the drivers intent to punish the cyclist for anything, including the cyclists existence on the road.

But calling this a punish pass more relates to an individuals attitude towards motor vehicle drivers. Some cyclists seem to believe that any driver who acts in a way unsafe to the cyclist are out to get the cyclist and want to punish them for being in the road. I don't buy this, I think more motorists are plain old stupid or unaware of what it is like outside the well insulated container of their converyance.
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Old 05-05-17, 05:16 PM
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Originally Posted by howsteepisit View Post
Did not look like a punish pass to me. Looked like a driver who has no idea of how close a car looks to be when you are on a bicycle.
Huh?!? The road is WIDE open, but you maneuver your vehicle as close as possible to the only other thing on the road, but that's not a punish pass? Honestly, that was too close for two cars, let alone the fact that I don't have a 2-ton safety cage, seat belts, airbags, etc. But hey, glad you confirmed everything I expect from A&S. Thanks!
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Old 05-05-17, 05:20 PM
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Originally Posted by howsteepisit View Post
UI suppose that would depend on how you define a punishment pass. If there was no intent to punish the cyclist then it is by definition not a punishment pass. However, if you have broadened the definition of a punishment pass to include all dangerous passes then its a punishment pass. Other than the closeness of the pass, I saw no evidence of the drivers intent to punish the cyclist for anything, including the cyclists existence on the road.

But calling this a punish pass more relates to an individuals attitude towards motor vehicle drivers. Some cyclists seem to believe that any driver who acts in a way unsafe to the cyclist are out to get the cyclist and want to punish them for being in the road. I don't buy this, I think more motorists are plain old stupid or unaware of what it is like outside the well insulated container of their converyance.
I've been using bikes for transportation since the mid-80s, I ride 6,500 miles per year - I know the difference between a driver that is oblivious and the driver that is bullying with a 2-ton death trap. This driver wanted to make a statement. It's not clear in the video, but the driver's making hand gestures that make it clear that this was no mistake.
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Old 05-05-17, 05:39 PM
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You asked for opinions, and when opinions do not agree with your seem offended. Then add other evidence to make your opinion more valid. Suit yourself.
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Old 05-05-17, 05:54 PM
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Originally Posted by howsteepisit View Post
UI suppose that would depend on how you define a punishment pass. If there was no intent to punish the cyclist then it is by definition not a punishment pass. However, if you have broadened the definition of a punishment pass to include all dangerous passes then its a punishment pass. Other than the closeness of the pass, I saw no evidence of the drivers intent to punish the cyclist for anything, including the cyclists existence on the road.

But calling this a punish pass more relates to an individuals attitude towards motor vehicle drivers. Some cyclists seem to believe that any driver who acts in a way unsafe to the cyclist are out to get the cyclist and want to punish them for being in the road. I don't buy this, I think more motorists are plain old stupid or unaware of what it is like outside the well insulated container of their conveyance.
OK I'll buy "stupid." The cyclist was in the right most through lane (the next lane to the right was a merge on and off lane) and the motorist had the choice of staying in the lane behind the cyclist, or going partially over, or going all the way into the very empty next lane to the left... and decided NOT to go all the way over into that empty lane... why was that "not an option" in the driver's mind? Oh yeah. Stupid. Right.
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Old 05-05-17, 06:33 PM
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Originally Posted by canklecat View Post
Seriously, I've heard lots of outraged cyclist stuff, but that was a moment of beauty. It's like Anthony Bourdain riding a bike.
It was missing a smack and a "Hey! I'm biking here!"
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Old 05-05-17, 06:53 PM
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Originally Posted by almosttrick View Post
did you see it coming?

I like to monitor overtaking traffic with my mirror. Then, when i see someone not moving left enough in a situation where i'm using the lane, i can look back and/or drop a slow/stop hand signal. It helps to wake 'em up and realize i'm a real live person in front of them.
+1
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Old 05-05-17, 06:55 PM
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The driver was already moving right as the pass occurred = punishment pass.

The dumb, clueless drivers never move left or right during the pass.

The punishment pass, the driver moves left to a safe point, then moves right during the pass to as close as they think they can get away without an actual collision.

The assault & battery keeps moving right for the side swipe.
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Old 05-05-17, 07:21 PM
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I guess living and riding in NYC for so long colors my attitude, but I didn't see anything to get so worked up over. To be clear, I might have given the driver an Italian salute, but this isn't anything I think about for more than minute. I wouldn't even think it worthy of comment here, except that I'm curious about something.

After the pass, you continued in the same lane, as (it seems) an entrance lane was to your right. I don't know about you but I HATE being passed on my right (except on NYC avenues), and was curious why you didn't move over sooner rather than have cars pass you on that side.

Understand, I'm not saying you did anything wrong, but I am curious about your thinking.
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Old 05-05-17, 07:54 PM
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On many merge lanes, I do the same. The drivers are looking to the left as they are trying to merge left, not right. I prefer to be in their field of view/concentration as they try rather than to the right where they forget that I am even there.

The disadvantage is that the cyclist mirror is on the left and takes the us away.

The drivers who passed on the right were late in doing so. They should have moved into the left lane much sooner or simply waited to merge.


Many years ago, this style of riding saved me from a very serious collision.
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Old 05-05-17, 10:14 PM
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I wouldn't move right into that lane. If you look at the map, they are headed onto the freeway. No reason to get in front of that.

I am curious if the driver looked at you in the mirror. That seems to me to be the giveaway for a punishment pass. The whole thing about not using the open passing lane just blows me away.
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Old 05-05-17, 10:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Hypno Toad View Post
..... The road is WIDE open, but you maneuver your vehicle as close as possible to the only other thing on the road,......


Personally, I'd get a rear camera. I've videoed a few motorists deliberately setting up to make a close pass, one in particular accelerated to make one at a 40 mph "speed differential".
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Old 05-06-17, 07:06 AM
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I routinely get passed that close.
I NEVER get into arguments with drivers.
Like you say-2 tons of metal
What is the upside of the rider yelling gesturing??

This is the age of ROAD RAGE- and a well armed population
Dead Right is still Dead.
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Old 05-06-17, 07:25 AM
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I commute, and I feel ya.
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Old 05-06-17, 08:16 AM
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Originally Posted by phoebeisis View Post
I NEVER get into arguments with drivers.
This. I've been commuting for 10 years and I have never once raised my voice to a motorist. They exist in an entirely different reality from me and I don't see the point in personal interactions. They are objects to be avoided.

I have gotten very angry at fellow cyclists.
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Old 05-06-17, 08:36 AM
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Originally Posted by 55murray View Post
This. I've been commuting for 10 years and I have never once raised my voice to a motorist. They exist in an entirely different reality from me and I don't see the point in personal interactions. They are objects to be avoided.

I have gotten very angry at fellow cyclists.
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Old 05-06-17, 09:00 AM
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How else can you go through that intersection, other than where the cyclist was?
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Old 05-06-17, 11:10 AM
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Originally Posted by FBinNY View Post
I guess living and riding in NYC for so long colors my attitude, but I didn't see anything to get so worked up over.
Originally Posted by unterhausen View Post
I wouldn't move right into that lane. If you look at the map, they are headed onto the freeway. No reason to get in front of that.
When it comes to close passes, speed differential matters. I'm guessing theres a substantial difference between where FB is riding (and he's fine with less than a 3 foot gap) and Hypno's situation where drivers are essentially on a freeway on ramp.

I know in my suburbs motor speeds are typically 40-50 mph. I'm not fine with close passes.
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Old 05-06-17, 01:33 PM
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Originally Posted by AlmostTrick View Post
When it comes to close passes, speed differential matters. I'm guessing theres a substantial difference between where FB is riding (and he's fine with less than a 3 foot gap) and Hypno's situation where drivers are essentially on a freeway on ramp.

I know in my suburbs motor speeds are typically 40-50 mph. I'm not fine with close passes.
Yes, it's true that NYC speed differentials are much smaller, but I also ride on the same type of open roads as the OP. I'm a firm believer that the speed differential is as (or more) important than separation, and when motorist friends ask, I suggest 1 foot for every 10 mph on their speedometer (bikers speed doesn't factor), or more if space is available. I also suggest slowing to more closely match speed before passing on busier roads.

But, you read more into my post than I put in there. I didn't say I was OK with close passes, just that I don't make a big deal of them.
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