Would a self driving car world make it safe for cyclists?
#2577
What happened?
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Around here somewhere
Posts: 8,050
Bikes: 3 Rollfasts, 3 Schwinns, a Shelby and a Higgins Flightliner in a pear tree!
Mentioned: 57 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1835 Post(s)
Liked 292 Times
in
255 Posts
I'm still waiting for Santa Claus to leave a Plymouth Duster parked by the house with a bow on it.
__________________
I don't know nothing, and I memorized it in school and got this here paper I'm proud of to show it.
#2578
What happened?
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Around here somewhere
Posts: 8,050
Bikes: 3 Rollfasts, 3 Schwinns, a Shelby and a Higgins Flightliner in a pear tree!
Mentioned: 57 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1835 Post(s)
Liked 292 Times
in
255 Posts
Eight MILLION ways to die in the naked city, wasn't that the line?
__________________
I don't know nothing, and I memorized it in school and got this here paper I'm proud of to show it.
#2579
What happened?
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Around here somewhere
Posts: 8,050
Bikes: 3 Rollfasts, 3 Schwinns, a Shelby and a Higgins Flightliner in a pear tree!
Mentioned: 57 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1835 Post(s)
Liked 292 Times
in
255 Posts
I read that Uber is trying to get back into the Catalonian market just as rioting is ramping up over the independence movement.
That boy's not all there, Margie.
That boy's not all there, Margie.
__________________
I don't know nothing, and I memorized it in school and got this here paper I'm proud of to show it.
#2580
Senior Member
#2581
Senior Member
JNCI: Journal of the National Cancer Institute,
Volume 105, Issue 24, 18 December 2013
Pages 1844–1846, https://doi.org/10.1093/jnci/djt365
Published: 06 December 2013
No Clear Link Between Passive Smoking and Lung Cancer
Judy Peres
Volume 105, Issue 24, 18 December 2013
Pages 1844–1846, https://doi.org/10.1093/jnci/djt365
Published: 06 December 2013
No Clear Link Between Passive Smoking and Lung Cancer
Judy Peres
A large prospective cohort study of more than 76,000 women confirmed a strong association between cigarette smoking and lung cancer but found no link between the disease and secondhand smoke.
The fact that passive smoking may not be strongly associated with lung cancer points to a need to find other risk factors for the disease [in nonsmokers], said Ange Wang, the Stanford University medical student who presented the study at the June 2013 meeting of the American Society of Clinical Oncology in Chicago.
Investigators from Stanford and other research centers looked at data from the Women's Health Initiative Observational Study (WHI-OS). Among 93,676 women aged 50-79 years at enrollment, the study had complete smoking and covariate data (including passive smoking exposure in childhood, adult home, and work) for 76,304 participants. Of those, 901 developed lung cancer over 10.5 mean years of follow-up.
The incidence of lung cancer was 13 times higher in current smokers and four times higher in former smokers than in never-smokers, and the relationship for both current and former smokers depended on level of exposure. However, among women who had never smoked, exposure to passive smoking overall, and to most categories of passive smoking, did not statistically significantly increase lung cancer risk. The only category of exposure that showed a trend toward increased risk was living in the same house with a smoker for 30 years or more.
The fact that passive smoking may not be strongly associated with lung cancer points to a need to find other risk factors for the disease [in nonsmokers], said Ange Wang, the Stanford University medical student who presented the study at the June 2013 meeting of the American Society of Clinical Oncology in Chicago.
Investigators from Stanford and other research centers looked at data from the Women's Health Initiative Observational Study (WHI-OS). Among 93,676 women aged 50-79 years at enrollment, the study had complete smoking and covariate data (including passive smoking exposure in childhood, adult home, and work) for 76,304 participants. Of those, 901 developed lung cancer over 10.5 mean years of follow-up.
The incidence of lung cancer was 13 times higher in current smokers and four times higher in former smokers than in never-smokers, and the relationship for both current and former smokers depended on level of exposure. However, among women who had never smoked, exposure to passive smoking overall, and to most categories of passive smoking, did not statistically significantly increase lung cancer risk. The only category of exposure that showed a trend toward increased risk was living in the same house with a smoker for 30 years or more.
#2582
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 2,977
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1638 Post(s)
Liked 741 Times
in
495 Posts
Similar numbers for those that die from second hand as those from autos though. Guessing most of those have no choice.
__________________
nine mile skid on a ten mile ride
nine mile skid on a ten mile ride
#2584
Senior Member
From the above, “We’ve gotten smoking out of bars and restaurants on the basis of the fact that you and I and other nonsmokers don’t want to die,” said Dr. Gerard Silvestri but notes that, “The reality is, we probably won’t.”
That may be as close to the similarity between the inherent dangers of second-hand cigarette smoke and a computer-driven Uber cars actually are.
The above cancer study did find that if you lived in your parents house for 20 years -- and they smoked like chimneys -- and after moving out you went to work as a bartender in a smoky nightclub, then perhaps you might get cancer and it might well be linked to all passive cigarette smoke you'd been exposed to. However, even if you live in a town full of computer driven Uber cars, you may not be at any greater risk of be run over at all but you can suddenly step out in front of a computer-driven car and be killed, just as you would with an ordinary driver behind the wheel.
That may be as close to the similarity between the inherent dangers of second-hand cigarette smoke and a computer-driven Uber cars actually are.
The above cancer study did find that if you lived in your parents house for 20 years -- and they smoked like chimneys -- and after moving out you went to work as a bartender in a smoky nightclub, then perhaps you might get cancer and it might well be linked to all passive cigarette smoke you'd been exposed to. However, even if you live in a town full of computer driven Uber cars, you may not be at any greater risk of be run over at all but you can suddenly step out in front of a computer-driven car and be killed, just as you would with an ordinary driver behind the wheel.
#2585
Senior Member
#2587
Senior Member
Why wouldn't it also detect the ball and at least slow to reduce any issues from that roadway incursion? It's not going to have enough data to be sure it's a one pound, bouncy soccer ball and not a ~200 pound boulder at the front of a rockslide, after all.
Not likely; ever used NIR night vision? Plenty of clothing that's black to visible light is highly reflective to NIR. The range on the LiDAR unit is 120m, so even if it failed to predict her path, she was in the AV's lane well within LiDAR range, with no close background to mask her return. Even if it didn't know what she was, why wouldn't the algorithm try to avoid any solid object in the roadway whenever possible? It wasn't being tailgated, so no undue risk in maximum braking, and the other lanes were empty, so swerving was definitely an option as well. Even going over the curb and potentially into a ditch or small tree should be a far preferable alternative to hitting something roughly 5' tall and about the same wide that just might be alive.
Not likely; ever used NIR night vision? Plenty of clothing that's black to visible light is highly reflective to NIR. The range on the LiDAR unit is 120m, so even if it failed to predict her path, she was in the AV's lane well within LiDAR range, with no close background to mask her return. Even if it didn't know what she was, why wouldn't the algorithm try to avoid any solid object in the roadway whenever possible? It wasn't being tailgated, so no undue risk in maximum braking, and the other lanes were empty, so swerving was definitely an option as well. Even going over the curb and potentially into a ditch or small tree should be a far preferable alternative to hitting something roughly 5' tall and about the same wide that just might be alive.
No, you do not understand what I'm saying. I'm talking about FAR infrared, not NEAR infrared. I have been in vehicle evaluations of both. FIR does not depend on reflection of electromagnetic waves from an illuminator. It depends on detection of radiation from the human body due to the heat generated in the body. It is a passive sensor. Clothing is irrelevant. That sensor could have detected the woman when she was on the median.
I agree, the system should have responded as soon as she came out of the brush. I also believe it should have been capable of tracking her while she was in the brush, before she stepped off the curb.
Another point is, night VISION is for creating an image that will be presented to a human observer. NIR SENSING can also be for an optical sensor that gathers information about objects within the field of view, encodes it into a formatted data stream, AND PRESENTS THE DATA TO AN IMAGE PROCESSING ALGORITHM. The resulting difference in functionalities is huge.
#2588
Senior Member
My point is that the system should have been detecting her presence, position, and motion early enough to know if an effective emergency response was feasible. It should have prepared the brakes, interior, occupant restraints and steering and possibly the suspension for fast maneuvering or emergency braking, eliminating a few seconds of delay and enabling sudden braking as close as possible to the general 1 g limit of the base vehicle.
At 40 mph she was traveling 16 m/s. With 10 m/s maximum deceleration, the car would have had to achieve and maintain it for 1.6 seconds to stop before intersecting with her path (i.e. hitting her). That level of emergency braking response needs to be initiated within the vehicle when a pre-collision situation is identified by the algorithm.
Yes the LIDAR failed, but the entire Uber car system failed if it did not initiate a similar chain of events. These are the steps that are necessary in lower levels of automated vehicle, and based on vehicle physics should still be needed with high levels of automation.
#2589
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Westminster, CO
Posts: 186
Bikes: 2016 Hong Fu Gravel Bike, 2015 Motobecane Turino Team
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 78 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
For those of you blaming the victim, what is really the technical difference between this situation and a bicycle traveling properly down the road in the same lane as the AV? The cyclist would present a smaller detection area to the AV, and would be going much slower than 38 mph, as to almost be "standing still." If the Uber AV can mow down a pedestrian traveling perpendicularly to the flow of traffic, it can also mow down a cyclist traveling the correct direction down the road. I would not want to be a cyclist in AZ right now.
Alan
Alan
#2590
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: San Jose (Willow Glen) Ca
Posts: 9,550
Bikes: Kirk Custom JK Special, '84 Team Miyata,(dura ace old school) 80?? SR Semi-Pro 600 Arabesque
Mentioned: 103 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2153 Post(s)
Liked 2,428 Times
in
1,343 Posts
What could you do if you were driving along within the speed limit and a j-walker dressed in black carrying a bike on a dark night suddenly stepped off a median into the path of your car? Is that something that you as a human with all that awesome brainpower at your disposal should obviously have anticipated?
__________________
Life is too short not to ride the best bike you have, as much as you can
(looking for Torpado Super light frame/fork or for Raleigh International frame fork 58cm)
Life is too short not to ride the best bike you have, as much as you can
(looking for Torpado Super light frame/fork or for Raleigh International frame fork 58cm)
#2591
Senior Member
Suddenly swerving and suddenly slamming on the brakes can in various circumstances be very problematical. Under these circumstances, it does not seem like slamming on the brakes would have caused problems but it's not obvious that it would have prevented the collision... according to a car stopping calculator, at 38 mph it would have taken 110' to haul the car to a stop whereas someone stepping out in front of a moving car may be hit before the driver can even hit the brakes (supposed to take about a second and in that time the driver already would have gone 37 feet).
#2592
Senior Member
"While Tempe police haven’t determined whether Uber was at fault, they did initially say the accident was likely unavoidable." ~WSJ
#2593
genec
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: West Coast
Posts: 27,079
Bikes: custom built, sannino, beachbike, giant trance x2
Mentioned: 86 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 13658 Post(s)
Liked 4,530 Times
in
3,157 Posts
I'm beginning to think that early San Francisco newspaper report came from a reporter that was accompanied by an Uber rep who came to Tempe with lots of cash.

Anyone check to see if the Tempe PD chief is driving a new car or boat?

#2594
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 4,524
Mentioned: 34 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2107 Post(s)
Liked 661 Times
in
441 Posts
If you start with the premise that "accidents" are almost never the fault of the driver, even automated drivers, no cash required.
-mr. bill
#2595
genec
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: West Coast
Posts: 27,079
Bikes: custom built, sannino, beachbike, giant trance x2
Mentioned: 86 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 13658 Post(s)
Liked 4,530 Times
in
3,157 Posts
No doubt the chief focused on the legality of the issue, not the fault. Legally, the ped should not have been there. Never mind that the car should have seen the ped long before there was an "accident."
#2596
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 4,524
Mentioned: 34 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2107 Post(s)
Liked 661 Times
in
441 Posts
Keep in mind that the early report was an "exclusive." (ie, money or "favors" likely involved)
No doubt the chief focused on the legality of the issue, not the fault. Legally, the ped should not have been there. Never mind that the car should have seen the ped long before there was an "accident."
No doubt the chief focused on the legality of the issue, not the fault. Legally, the ped should not have been there. Never mind that the car should have seen the ped long before there was an "accident."
As far as the "never mind," this:
Drivers to exercise due care
-mr. bill
#2597
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Far beyond the pale horizon.
Posts: 14,012
Mentioned: 31 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4077 Post(s)
Liked 1,186 Times
in
841 Posts
=============================
Anybody according immediate statements as having value aren't careful readers of the media.
Last edited by njkayaker; 03-26-18 at 12:03 PM.
#2598
Been Around Awhile
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Burlington Iowa
Posts: 29,760
Bikes: Vaterland and Ragazzi
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12 Post(s)
Liked 1,391 Times
in
942 Posts
The AV promoter apologists come and go on this list but their refrain is consistent - ignore the obvious, accept as gospel the rush to judgement attitude of the local police chief, make up a bogus accident scenario, and/or place all fault, blame and responsibilities on the pedestrian and make excuses for Uber.
#2599
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Posts: 27,570
Mentioned: 217 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 17859 Post(s)
Liked 4,282 Times
in
3,195 Posts
Waymo CEO On Uber Crash: Our Self-Driving Car Would Have Avoided Pedestrian
Hopefully they've made an effort to recreate the incident. But, this sounds like a limitation specific to Uber.
Hopefully they've made an effort to recreate the incident. But, this sounds like a limitation specific to Uber.
#2600
Been Around Awhile
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Burlington Iowa
Posts: 29,760
Bikes: Vaterland and Ragazzi
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12 Post(s)
Liked 1,391 Times
in
942 Posts
I previously responded to another poster who also made bogus aspersions about conspiracy mongering on this subject. See Would a self driving car world make it safe for cyclists?
What I believe is that the Tempe police chief showed very poor judgement by drawing her rush to judgement and questionable conclusion from the poor quality dash cam video and the statement of the distracted driver and going on the record with it in a peculiar "exclusive" to an out of town newspaper- “it’s very clear it would have been difficult to avoid this collision in any kind of mode (autonomous or human-driven) based on how she came from the shadows right into the roadway.”
Her "motive" was probably her own stupidity.
What I believe is that the Tempe police chief showed very poor judgement by drawing her rush to judgement and questionable conclusion from the poor quality dash cam video and the statement of the distracted driver and going on the record with it in a peculiar "exclusive" to an out of town newspaper- “it’s very clear it would have been difficult to avoid this collision in any kind of mode (autonomous or human-driven) based on how she came from the shadows right into the roadway.”
Her "motive" was probably her own stupidity.