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Would a self driving car world make it safe for cyclists?

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Would a self driving car world make it safe for cyclists?

Old 03-29-18, 07:15 AM
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Originally Posted by McBTC
So, to recap-- "While California puts the brakes on innovation and change with more bureaucracy and more regulation," Republican governor Doug Ducey (who purportedly has, a 'tight connection with Uber') says in 2016, "Arizona is paving the way for new technology and new businesses." A couple of years later and who knows how much money Uber has invested in this new technology, a seemingly inattentive ex-felon behind the wheel of an Uber car, apparently driving 7 mph under the posted speed limit on a 5 to 7 lane roadway (with a generous center divide) watches helplessly as a 49 year old women dressed in black at 10P, pushes a bike laden with homeless crap across the road in an area specifically marked to not cross and into the path of what appears to be the only car on the road.
More on the AZ governor - Uber connection:Would a self driving car world make it safe for cyclists?
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Old 03-29-18, 07:18 AM
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Originally Posted by njkayaker
The Gardian reveal is at least 22 hours old.

https://gizmodo.com/emails-show-how-...ata-1824142043

You just heard about it late!

From your cited article "But emails between Uber and Ducey’s office, obtained by The Guardian, suggest that Ducey wasn’t always so concerned with Uber not prioritizing public safety. The Guardian reports..."
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Old 03-29-18, 07:27 AM
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Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike
From your cited article "But emails between Uber and Ducey’s office, obtained by The Guardian, suggest that Ducey wasn’t always so concerned with Uber not prioritizing public safety. The Guardian reports..."


I didn't say the Gardian didn't publish the report about the emails first.

I said it's old news (22 hours old).

The "cozy relationship" is even older news.

Last edited by njkayaker; 03-29-18 at 07:33 AM.
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Old 03-29-18, 07:59 AM
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Originally Posted by njkayaker
Apparently, you have no idea that there's already a four day old thread discussing that.

"All cyclists will need to fit detection beacons, says cycle industry boss"

Nor did you read the article very carefully.

It's the cyclist-author who "wants us" to wear beacons.
Whoops.

Oh and I did read and understand the article, I was just quoting him because I felt he had summarized the issue fairly well. I wasn't saying he (the author) wanted us to wear beacons.

BTW You could have informed me a little more politely of the fact that a thread on this subject already existed.
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Old 03-29-18, 08:22 AM
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For those of you saying it won't cost that much more to basically go from "good enough" safety to "almost perfect" safety, how much do LIDARs cost? Last I heard, it was ~$70k. I know they are working hard to reduce that, but still, where will they end up? $5k? Uber went from the Ford Fusion with 7 LIDAR sensors to the Volvo SUV with 1??? You aren't going to make that up with software. If there are blind spots in the LIDAR coverage.... The hardware is where the cost is, and companies are going to try to minimize hardware cost. Again, software can't make up for significant hardware limitations.
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Old 03-29-18, 08:28 AM
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Originally Posted by njkayaker


I didn't say the Gardian didn't publish the report about the emails first.

I said it's old news (22 hours old).

The "cozy relationship" is even older news.
You are the only individual who seems so concerned about who is first at posting some news or factoid, or if somebody else posts something that may have also been reported elsewhere, whether on BF or the Internet. Relax and try to pay attention to the content, rather than the timestamp of the posting.
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Old 03-29-18, 09:08 AM
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Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike
You are the only individual who seems so concerned about who is first at posting some news or factoid, or if somebody else posts something that may have also been reported elsewhere, whether on BF or the Internet. Relax and try to pay attention to the content, rather than the timestamp of the posting.


You posted it in as a reply to something I wrote..

I said that I had heard about related stuff earlier.

For some weird reason, got your knickers in a knot.

You get upset and then you tell other people to relax.

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Old 03-29-18, 09:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Coasterbrakefan
I wasn't saying he (the author) wanted us to wear beacons.
That's the part you missed.

The author is saying he (the author) wants "us" to wear beacons.

Originally Posted by Coasterbrakefan
Apparently the guys making self driving cars want us bicyclists to wear beacons because their self driving cars are having a hard time detecting us.
No, it's the cyclist-author who wants it. I haven't heard of any of the "guys making self driving cars" saying they want it. So, it's not "apparent" at all.

Originally Posted by Coasterbrakefan
BTW You could have informed me a little more politely of the fact that a thread on this subject already existed.
And you could have put a little more effort into knowing what else is going on. One problem with this thread is new people keep "discovering" it and recycle stuff that has been mentioned multiple times already.

Last edited by njkayaker; 03-29-18 at 09:17 AM.
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Old 03-29-18, 09:20 AM
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Originally Posted by njkayaker
That's the part you missed.

The author is saying he (the author) wants "us" to wear beacons.


No, it's the cyclist-author who wants it. I haven't heard of any of the "guys making self driving cars" saying they want it. So, it's not "apparent" at all.


And you could have put a little more effort into knowing what else is going on. One problem with this thread is new people keep "discovering" it and recycle stuff that has been mentioned multiple times already.
I honestly assumed you knew what you were talking about. Guess I was wrong.
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Old 03-29-18, 09:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Coasterbrakefan
I honestly assumed you knew what you were talking about. Guess I was wrong.
Bikesnob is referencing this article:

https://slate.com/technology/2018/02...he-answer.html

The beacon idea predates "the guys making self driving cars".

The recommendations for beacons is not just about automated vehicles.

Here's another article recommending beacons (it's not from ""the guys making self driving cars"):

https://www.bikebiz.com/news/bike-beacons

Manuel Marsilio, general manager of the Confederation for the European Bicycle Industry was speaking at the ‘Future Networked Car’ symposium. This brought together motorcar manufacturers, information and communication technology industries, governments and regulators to discuss the status and future of vehicle-to-vehicle communications and automated driving.​

Last edited by njkayaker; 03-29-18 at 09:42 AM.
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Old 03-29-18, 09:31 AM
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Originally Posted by njkayaker
I crossed this article with the bikesnob article.

https://www.bikebiz.com/news/bike-beacons

"All cyclists will need to fit detection beacons, says cycle industry boss"
Originally Posted by mr_bill
Or maybe "they" won't?

Click Bait V2

"Cycle industry is not in favour of mandatory "bike beacons" says CONEBI exec"

Shocking? All the ignorant faux outrage, twice the clicks.

-mr. bill
EMPHASIS ADDED, because.

-mr. bill
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Old 03-29-18, 09:45 AM
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Originally Posted by mr_bill
EMPHASIS ADDED, because.

-mr. bill

Yes. That was the thread Coasterbrakefan knew nothing about.

Some people are making like it's "the guys making self driving cars" who started the beacon stuff.

The recommendation for beacons isn't from "the guys making self driving cars".

(It wouldn't be surprising that they would also support the idea.)

No doubt, "the guys making self driving cars" are also behind sinful rock-and-roll music too!

Last edited by njkayaker; 03-29-18 at 09:53 AM.
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Old 03-29-18, 09:47 AM
  #2763  
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So basically ... nothing new to see here, folks. move along.

Some real news will come up eventually. The Guardian article was a little stale info, a little innuendo, and a lot of spin, trying to pretend they had a "Smoking Gun!" scoop ... but they didn't.

The Guardian article was a case of an assignment editor saying 'we got good interaction on the last couple Ubercrash articles ... try to come up with a new angle."
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Old 03-29-18, 09:50 AM
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I have a unique proposal---let's not turn this thread into an epeen-measuring thread ... like we do with all the other threads.

I readily confess that I have been as guilty as any other party ... but i do think we all have free will, and sometimes, just plain will ... so let's not do it wrong again.

No one of us is perfect, and no one of us becomes a better person by posting the latest, snarkiest post on the page.
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Old 03-29-18, 09:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Maelochs
Hmmm .... maybe you need to learn to think as wellas read.

What I said was that the second video was overexposed. And if you know anything about photography, you can see that.

Couple that with similar comments form Noisebeam, who lives there and rides and drives that road ...

So ... any time you want to discuss real stuff, here I am. any time you want to make up a bunch of stuff and blame other people for stuff no one said but you ... there you go.

Are you kidding me? Do you have any idea who you are talking to, Mr. "Wellas"?

You claim that the video is overexposed, with only some vague knowledge of photography to back you up. And that, my friend, is laughable. Because I do have some knowledge of photography, as well as knowledge of cell-phone video, as well as knowledge of amateur internet videos, as well as knowledge of street lights and their effect on ambient lighting, as well as knowledge of driving at various speeds, in various lighting conditions, on various types of roadway, in various types of vehicle.

Even if we accept the claim that the video is somehow overexposed (which we will only do here for argument's sake), it is clearly more indicative of what the human eye can perceive, as opposed to the first video that was released. So even if it is overexposed, the point remains that a human driver should have noticed the woman sooner. And that is all that matters.

Anything else is your failure to use basic logic and think critically.

Originally Posted by McBTC
So, to recap.. A couple of years later and who knows how much money Uber has invested in this new technology, a seemingly inattentive ex-felon behind the wheel of an Uber car, apparently driving 7 mph under the posted speed limit on a 5 to 7 lane roadway (with a generous center divide) watches helplessly as a 49 year old women dressed in black at 10P, pushes a bike laden with homeless crap across the road in an area specifically marked to not cross and into the path of what appears to be the only car on the road.
Are you kidding me? What difference does it make what was hanging off of the bike? What does the person's lack of an address have to do with anything?

Are you really unable to see the big picture? What if the next human to enter the road unlawfully is a kid chasing a ball? What if it is a bike rider that has to swerve into the lane, or simply take the lane, for any number of legitimate reasons? And should the punishment for jaywalking now be death, without even having the benefit of a trial?

Some really amazing people out there...
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Old 03-29-18, 10:06 AM
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texting in a self driving car is still not allowed, neither is texting and running into people
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Old 03-29-18, 10:23 AM
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https://www.reuters.com/article/us-u...-idUSKBN1H337Q

The new Uber driverless vehicle is armed with only one roof-mounted lidar sensor compared with seven lidar units on the older Ford Fusion models Uber employed, according to diagrams prepared by Uber.
...
Autonomous vehicles operated by rivals Waymo, Alphabet Inc’s self-driving vehicle unit, have six lidar sensors, while General Motors Co’s vehicle contains five, according to information from the companies.
...
Velodyne acknowledged that with the rooftop lidar there is a roughly three meter blind spot around a vehicle, saying that more sensors are necessary.

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Old 03-29-18, 10:37 AM
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Originally Posted by njkayaker


Isn't this what we should be talking about??
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Old 03-29-18, 10:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Shimagnolo
I did not realize Uber was no longer using 360 degree LIDAR, but instead just using a single fixed unit on the front.
They were using a SINGLE 360 degree LIDAR, roof mounted, on the Volvo.

-mr. bill
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Old 03-29-18, 10:46 AM
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Originally Posted by mr_bill
They were using a SINGLE 360 degree LIDAR, roof mounted, on the Volvo.

-mr. bill
Correction noted, and edited.
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Old 03-29-18, 11:11 AM
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Originally Posted by RFEngineer
Isn't this what we should be talking about??
Sure! Go ahead!

We don't know much about it other than it was settled.
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Old 03-29-18, 12:16 PM
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Originally Posted by robertorolfo

Are you really unable to see the big picture? What if the next human to enter the road unlawfully is a kid chasing a ball? What if it is a bike rider that has to swerve into the lane, or simply take the lane, for any number of legitimate reasons? And should the punishment for jaywalking now be death, without even having the benefit of a trial?
The kid and bike gets hit by a HV or AV if there was insufficient time to react.
'Taking the lane' is different as it is not a sudden change of position.

Sadly one of the downsides of jaywalking is the much greater potential for death - jaywalkers are killed every day due to their mistake. Eventually AVs will be better than humans in helping prevent hitting them.
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Old 03-29-18, 01:08 PM
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Originally Posted by noisebeam
The kid and bike gets hit by a HV or AV if there was insufficient time to react.
'Taking the lane' is different as it is not a sudden change of position.

Sadly one of the downsides of jaywalking is the much greater potential for death - jaywalkers are killed every day due to their mistake. Eventually AVs will be better than humans in helping prevent hitting them.
If there is insufficient time to react. But, as this story is unfolding, it looks like there might have been enough time for a human to react. Even if the woman could only be spotted at the last second (which is now being disputed, because of questions about the true level of light), swerving might still have been possible. Or, at leas a human would have attempted something, unlike this AV that just kept going.

And when taking the lane, you must be seen in order to avoid being hit from behind. This AV completely missed an object that it should have "seen", and that is the point here. If the various systems failed to noticed a human and a bike, when approach from the side, couldn't they also miss a human and a bike approached from behind, when their profile is at least 25% smaller?

That you think AV's will eventually be better at avoiding jaywalkers is fine, but even if that eventually becomes true, we are still a long way away from that being the case. In the meantime, we shouldn't have inferior systems allowed on public roads, no?
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Old 03-29-18, 01:15 PM
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Originally Posted by noisebeam
Eventually AVs will be better than humans in helping prevent hitting them.
Possibly; maybe sooner, maybe later, maybe never. Also eventually Uber might stay in business long enough to run a profitable and/or ethical AV business.
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Old 03-29-18, 01:32 PM
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Originally Posted by robertorolfo
If there is insufficient time to react. But, as this story is unfolding, it looks like there might have been enough time for a human to react. Even if the woman could only be spotted at the last second (which is now being disputed, because of questions about the true level of light), swerving might still have been possible. Or, at leas a human would have attempted something, unlike this AV that just kept going.

And when taking the lane, you must be seen in order to avoid being hit from behind. This AV completely missed an object that it should have "seen", and that is the point here. If the various systems failed to noticed a human and a bike, when approach from the side, couldn't they also miss a human and a bike approached from behind, when their profile is at least 25% smaller?

That you think AV's will eventually be better at avoiding jaywalkers is fine, but even if that eventually becomes true, we are still a long way away from that being the case. In the meantime, we shouldn't have inferior systems allowed on public roads, no?
You asked about the 'big picture' and provided some vague hypotheticals. I responded to them and now you are talking about the specific incident again??? Stay focused.

I know AVs will detect lane taking cyclists. The better designed ones already do and do so very well. BUT like any driver one needs to trust AND verify. Fortunately the AVs I encounter make it easy to verify relative to human drivers.

We don't know yet if the Uber missed the object or didn't respond appropriately and why.

I do agree we need better training and licensing for motorists to reduce the number of inferior drivers out there.
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